4 Of the coming of the Elves

[Findegil]

I can see your reasoning for the different choice of the basic text. I did rather choose by fiting structure than by anthing else. So I am over all not in opposition against AAm as basic text. But as a matter of fact I think that some of passages that I kept from LQ add worth while information. So let have the discussion pice by pice.

I do not mind if we start with LQ §18 or AAm §30 and if you prefer AAm that is okay for me, but the more detailed description of growth that had been checked seems worth the interruption of the text for me. What about this:

CE-01<AAm{§30} For one thousand years of the Trees the Valar dwelt in bliss in Valinor beyond the Mountains of Aman, and all Middle-earth lay in a twilight under the stars.> <LQ While the Lamps had shone, growth began there which now was checked, because all was again dark. But already the oldest living things had arisen: in the sea the great weeds, and on the earth the shadow of great trees; and in the valleys of the night-clad hills there were dark creatures old and strong.> <AAm Thither the Valar seldom came, save only Yavanna and Orome; …

As well I find it sad to loos Yavanna’s feeling of ‘ill content that it[Middle-earth] was forsaken’. With this and the removal of CE-EX-03 we would nearly annihilate an explicit thread of the storyline in LQ with Yavanna as the one actively pushing the other Valar to act in Middle-earth. The only part left is her speech at the council. But if you feel it necessary that is bearable.

CE-SL-01: Do I understand rightly, that you suppose to leave that detailed description of the Balrogs including their nature and physical exterior out yust because it would mean an insertion into a text composition? To this I am strongly in opposition and the ‘corollary’ to our rules is with me on this issue I think. Anyhow ‘multiplied the race of the evil spirits that followed him’ can in my opinion not stand alone. How could he multiply spirits? Did What about this editing:

… CE-01.1<AAm* But Melkor dwelt in Utumno, and he did not sleep, but watched and laboured; and whatsoever good Yavanna worked in the lands he undid if he could, and the evil things that he had perverted walked far abroad, and the dark and slumbering woods were haunted by monsters and shapes of dread. And in Utumno he CE-SL-01b {multiplied}<LQ gahthered> the race of the evil spirits that followed him, the Úmaiar, of whom the chief were those demons whom the Elves afterwards named the Balrogath. <LQ; Ch. 3; Note to §18 These were the {(}ealar{)}[Footnote to the text: 'spirit' (not incarnate, which was fëa, {S[indarin]}Sindarin fae). eala 'being'.] spirits who first adhered to him in the days of his splendour, and became most like him in his corruption: their hearts were of fire, but they were cloaked in darkness, and terror went before them; they had whips of flame.> But they did not yet come forth from the gates of Utumno because of their fear of Oromë.>

CE-EX-04: You are right, however clver we may place the Cuivienyarna there will be some forward and backward jumping in time. For me your placement does worl equally well, so if the other don’t mind we can change the place.
A agree that when using AAm §37 - §38 it doesn’t make sense to use the first sentence of LQ §20. It made it to my text because LQ was my basic and I didn’t liked another change before the palce where I gave the Cuivienyarna.

’Legendary’ character of the Cuivienyarna: Wow, I would not have expected such a ‘inovative’ use of a author’s note to be considered acceptable. But I am okay with this.

CE-SL-06: Interisting that I would like to remove the ‘sun of summer’ which you ememnd by putting in ‘later’ and I would hold the twilight times by editorial emendation. Are you sure that the concept has been abondaned that the sun was a sign for the waning of the first born and for the approach of the Dominion of Men? That was my reason to remove the ‘sun of summer’. But however that might be Elvish joy might always be mingled with some sadness, wo we might keep the ‘sun of summer’ as you proposed.
CE-SL-07: I agree that my amendations are a bit on the heavy side, what about only skiping the later part and adding in the same style as before only a ‘later’:

Now the Quendi loved all of Arda that they had yet seen, and green things that grew and CE-SL-06b<editorial addition later> the sun of summer were their delight; but nonetheless they were ever moved most in heart by the Stars, and CE-SL-07b<editorial addition later> the hours of twilight in clear weather, at 'morrowdim' and at 'even-dim', were the times of their greatest joy.{ For in those hours in the spring of the year they had first awakened to life in Arda.} But the Lindar, above all the other Quendi, from their beginning were most in love with water, and sang before they could speak.>

CE-EX-05.3: Oops, we have not marked this, but it must be removed since we don’t know for sure how the relations was:

{ 1085
§41 }And when the Elves had dwelt in the world five and thirty Years of the Valar CE-EX-05.3{ (which is like unto three hundred and thirty-five of our years)} it chanced that Oromë rode to {Endon}[Endor] in his hunting, …

CE-EX-06 to CE-EX-23: (CE-EX-24 is actually the Sub-chapter heading, which we should discusse independently.) I agree that this enlargement might have become to big an exagreation for the text of our propose at this palce. I agree to remove it. But I think it should become the grain for building up a part of volume III.

Respectfully
Findegil

[Aiwendil]

Originally Posted by Findegil

I can see your reasoning for the different choice of the basic text. I did rather choose by fiting structure than by anthing else. So I am over all not in opposition against AAm as basic text. But as a matter of fact I think that some of passages that I kept from LQ add worth while information. So let have the discussion pice by pice.

Agreed.

As well I find it sad to loos Yavanna’s feeling of ‘ill content that it[Middle-earth] was forsaken’. With this and the removal of CE-EX-03 we would nearly annihilate an explicit thread of the storyline in LQ with Yavanna as the one actively pushing the other Valar to act in Middle-earth. The only part left is her speech at the council. But if you feel it necessary that is bearable.

You have a good point here, and it's probably worth some heavier editing to keep that thread. However, in your first draft I find a redundancy between LQ and AAm, as we twice tell that Orome and Yavanna went to Middle-earth, and twice tell of Yavanna's grief. In LQ we are told that she "grieved at the darkness of Middle-earth and ill content that it was forsaken" and in AAm she is "grieving because all the growth and promise of the Spring of Arda was checked". I think we either must lose one of those two statements, or somehow combine them.

How about:

CE-01<AAm{§30} For one thousand years of the Trees the Valar dwelt in bliss in Valinor beyond the Mountains of Aman, and all Middle-earth lay in a twilight under the stars.> <LQ While the Lamps had shone, growth began there which now was checked, because all was again dark. But already the oldest living things had arisen: in the sea the great weeds, and on the earth the shadow of great trees; and in the valleys of the night-clad hills there were dark creatures old and strong.> <AAm Thither the Valar seldom came, save only Yavanna and Orome; and Yavanna often would walk there in the shadows, grieving because all the growth and promise of the Spring of Arda was checked <LQand ill content that it was forsaken>. And she set a sleep . . .

If we're including these bits from LQ, I suppose it might be better to take the first sentence from LQ as well, rather than AAm, so we could also do:

CE-01<LQ{§18 }In all this time, since Melkor overthrew the Lamps, the Middle-earth east of the Mountains was without light. While the Lamps had shone, growth began there which now was checked, because all was again dark. But already the oldest living things had arisen: in the sea the great weeds, and on the earth the shadow of great trees; and in the valleys of the night-clad hills there were dark creatures old and strong.> <AAm Thither the Valar seldom came, save only Yavanna and Orome; and Yavanna often would walk there in the shadows, grieving because all the growth and promise of the Spring of Arda was checked <LQand ill content that it was forsaken>. And she set a sleep . . .

Either of those is fine with me.

CE-SL-01: No, I'm not opposed to interrupting the text for the sake of adding details (which we frequently do), but I thought that the motivation for this was to avoid saying, as in LQ, that Melkor created the Balrogs - since Tolkien had already emended AAm* for this same purpose, and since my general preference is for AAm as the later text, I thought we might use that. You're right that the LQ note offers some additional descriptive details, and I think your last suggestion here is good.

The word "multiplied", used in AAm*, is interesting, and I'm not sure what to make of it - it seems to me that the purpose of this emendation was to remove the statement that Melkor created the Balrogs, and yet it is still said that he "multiplied" them. In any case, given the (presumably later) "no more than 3 or at most 7" note, I agree that "multiplied" must go, and I think your suggestion to replace it with LQ's "gathered" is good.

CE-EX-04: OK, I think we're in agreement here.

’Legendary’ character of the Cuivienyarna: Wow, I would not have expected such a ‘inovative’ use of a author’s note to be considered acceptable. But I am okay with this.

Yeah, it was not without some hesitation that I suggested that. But since the purpose of the author's note in this case is to tell us what, exactly, the Cuivienyarna is, and since that's also the purpose of a sub-title, I find it acceptable.

CE-SL-06, -07: I suppose this works. If you do find the "sun of summer" questionable, I'm OK with deleting it, but it seems quite plausible to me that the Elves would delight in the sun; certainly I don't think it's suggested anywhere that they had any antipathy toward it, even if it was associated with the rise of Men.

CE-EX-05.3: Good catch.

CE-EX-06 - -23: OK, good, agreed that this is better suited to volume III.