Tidbits of Curiosity

[Huinesoron]

Originally Posted by Urwen

If Idril is the big good of FoG, does that make M[a]eglin big bad? Or does that 'honor' still fall to Morgoth?

Interesting. I would say that they do actually occupy much the same position - while not playing a particularly large part in the great events (Maeglin is actually off trying to kidnap Idril at the time), they're the driving force that leads to those events. Maeglin betrays Gondolin, of course; meanwhile Idril commits her own act of arguable treason, going against her father's express wishes to dig an escape tunnel. (She actually tells the people working on it that she'll square it with her dad - but doesn't, because she knows he won't do it!)

Ultimately, the hero of the story still winds up being Tuor, while Morgoth remains as the ultimate villain. But their actions are enabled and pushed forward by the other two.

hS

[Galadriel55]

Originally Posted by Huinesoron

Interesting. I would say that they do actually occupy much the same position - while not playing a particularly large part in the great events (Maeglin is actually off trying to kidnap Idril at the time), they're the driving force that leads to those events. Maeglin betrays Gondolin, of course; meanwhile Idril commits her own act of arguable treason, going against her father's express wishes to dig an escape tunnel. (She actually tells the people working on it that she'll square it with her dad - but doesn't, because she knows he won't do it!)

Ultimately, the hero of the story still winds up being Tuor, while Morgoth remains as the ultimate villain. But their actions are enabled and pushed forward by the other two.

hS

Cross posted. Interesting thoughts. I saw Idril almlst like the Melian of Gondolin, but I guess you're right: Melian is on Thingol's level and her advice is heeded, while Idril is much below, at the level of Maeglin.

[Urwen]

I think so. Their actions led to good things. Without Maeglin, War of Wrath wouldn't have happened. Without Gollum, the Ring wouldn't have been destroyed.

[Galadriel55]

Originally Posted by Urwen

I think so. Their actions led to good things. Without Maeglin, War of Wrath wouldn't have happened. Without Gollum, the Ring wouldn't have been destroyed.

A [complex] evil that leads to good - but still remains evil?

I was also thinking about their position and eventual choices. Alienated from their society (to different degrees, of course), hiding away from the world, lusting after an unattainable object, betraying the only other thing that matters in order to satisfy the lust by willingly going over to the enemy, eventually dying in a desperate bid for their desire.

[Urwen]

Originally Posted by Galadriel55

A [complex] evil that leads to good - but still remains evil?

I was also thinking about their position and eventual choices. Alienated from their society (to different degrees, of course), hiding away from the world, lusting after an unattainable object, betraying the only other thing that matters in order to satisfy the lust by willingly going over to the enemy, eventually dying in a desperate bid for their desire.

I suppose that's true, though there are differences. One lusted after another person, the other lusted after an object. One committed suicide, the other was murdered.

[Huinesoron]

Originally Posted by Urwen

One committed suicide, the other was murdered.

'Murder' usually implies you're not in the middle of trying to kill your murderer... They both died by getting into a fight at the top of a cliff and winding up going over the edge.

The biggest difference, really, is that Gollum didn't go over to the Enemy. He gave up information under torture, but remained a free agent afterwards. Maeglin, meanwhile, not only didn't need to be tortured, but ended up actively working to weaken Gondolin for Morgoth's attack.

hS

[Urwen]

Originally Posted by Huinesoron

'Murder' usually implies you're not in the middle of trying to kill your murderer... They both died by getting into a fight at the top of a cliff and winding up going over the edge.

For a second, I thought you were implying that Tuor fell off the cliff too...Then I realized you meant Gollum.

[Urwen]

Originally Posted by Huinesoron

'Murder' usually implies you're not in the middle of trying to kill your murderer... They both died by getting into a fight at the top of a cliff and winding up going over the edge.

The biggest difference, really, is that Gollum didn't go over to the Enemy. He gave up information under torture, but remained a free agent afterwards. Maeglin, meanwhile, not only didn't need to be tortured, but ended up actively working to weaken Gondolin for Morgoth's attack.

hS

Most of the fanfictions I've read go with the idea that Tuor actively pushed/threw Maeglin off the cliffside. (As in, physically lifting him up and chucking him over the edge)