Tidbits of Curiosity

[Huinesoron]

Originally Posted by Urwen

I wouldn't oppose either of those couples.


It would be interesting for sure. Turin, heir of Nargothrond, via marriage. Tuor, heir of Gondolin, via marriage. And Beren, heir of Doriath, via marriage.


All three of big mortal heroes of Silm could have inherited each of the three greatest Elven realms at the time, if it weren't for that pesky Curse of Morgoth. How sad....

... and in at least two of those cases, their wives would be the power behind the throne.

Oh, Tuor might look all strong and tough, but Idril is a Seer; you know she's going to be calling the shots. And Luthien - well, would you argue with her?!

I'm not sure about Turin and Finduilas; someone who's read The Children of Hurin more recently than me would probably have a better grasp on her. But Turin is kind of a terrible leader in the long term (see: literally everywhere he goes), so I'd hope he'd at least listen to what the woman who's been living there 400+ years has to say.

hS

[Urwen]

Originally Posted by Huinesoron

... and in at least two of those cases, their wives would be the power behind the throne.

Oh, Tuor might look all strong and tough, but Idril is a Seer; you know she's going to be calling the shots. And Luthien - well, would you argue with her?!

I'm not sure about Turin and Finduilas; someone who's read The Children of Hurin more recently than me would probably have a better grasp on her. But Turin is kind of a terrible leader in the long term (see: literally everywhere he goes), so I'd hope he'd at least listen to what the woman who's been living there 400+ years has to say.

hS

That's the idea.



I believe that the Curse is responsible for his actions, rather than the other way around.

[Huinesoron]

Originally Posted by Urwen

I believe that the Curse is responsible for his actions, rather than the other way around.

If the Curse is the sole reason for Turin's misfortune, then he would never have left Doriath, so you'd be back to Nellas.

I see Turin's path as one of bad decisions which other people might get lucky and avoid the consequences of, but which he will always be hit by. A prisoner who wakes up to find someone leaning over them with a sword might attack, or might recognise that the Orcs wouldn't kill them quietly in the night; only for Turin would the attack always be both successful and lethal. A new Captain of Nargothrond might take the city on an all-out attack, or might trust in the secrecy that has served it so well; only for Turin would breaking that secrecy necessarily lead to total destruction. &c &c.

But when Turin makes decent decisions, things don't go wrong. Rescuing Nienor was a good decision, and led to a period of peace (one of the few he had). Even marrying her didn't actually lead to any negative consequences, though it potentially would have later on. Attacking Glaurung was extraordinarily successful - but then he decided to approach and taunt a mind-controlling Worm that wasn't actually dead, to recover an actually Cursed sword. That led directly to his death, Nienor's, and that of the Lord of the Haladin.

hS

[Galadriel55]

Originally Posted by Huinesoron

If the Curse is the sole reason for Turin's misfortune, then he would never have left Doriath, so you'd be back to Nellas.

I see Turin's path as one of bad decisions which other people might get lucky and avoid the consequences of, but which he will always be hit by. A prisoner who wakes up to find someone leaning over them with a sword might attack, or might recognise that the Orcs wouldn't kill them quietly in the night; only for Turin would the attack always be both successful and lethal. A new Captain of Nargothrond might take the city on an all-out attack, or might trust in the secrecy that has served it so well; only for Turin would breaking that secrecy necessarily lead to total destruction. &c &c.

But when Turin makes decent decisions, things don't go wrong. Rescuing Nienor was a good decision, and led to a period of peace (one of the few he had). Even marrying her didn't actually lead to any negative consequences, though it potentially would have later on. Attacking Glaurung was extraordinarily successful - but then he decided to approach and taunt a mind-controlling Worm that wasn't actually dead, to recover an actually Cursed sword. That led directly to his death, Nienor's, and that of the Lord of the Haladin.

hS

I agree very much with your interpretation of the Curse, but I would argue that there is no good choice for Turin - or very few. He tries to save a woman from rape (good, right?), ends up killing his captain (maybe not much of a loss, but still bad). He rescues Niniel (good, who would leave a woman in that state?), but marries his sister (bad! - and she would have remembered anyways when Glaurung died, regardless of how he died, I think that's implied in the text).

I think Turin's fate is also in part due to his inability to keep his head down; he cannot be a lesser man than he is. He tries to start fresh time and time again, but he cannot be less than what he can. Did he have a position or an honour that he didn't deserve? No. He really deserved all, he was that good, and he couldn't suppress the effort in himself. All he had to do was be second best, settle down, let someone else make the calls. But he had to fight to his full potential, had to live to his full potential, take charge of his own life - Master his Fate, be the one who makes the calls of his life rather than letting it flow where it would by the choices of other men. Only with the Curse, as you said, do all your efforts - which are good efforts! - turn everything around them sour. Turin's choices and behaviours aren't always great, but they often make a lot of sense in the context of what he knows. There are many other people who also aren't your perfect goody-two-shoes, but no one is as unlucky as Turin.



I'll tell you about Finduilas when I get to that chapter in COH.

[Huinesoron]

Originally Posted by Galadriel55

I agree very much with your interpretation of the Curse, but I would argue that there is no good choice for Turin - or very few. He tries to save a woman from rape (good, right?), ends up killing his captain (maybe not much of a loss, but still bad). He rescues Niniel (good, who would leave a woman in that state?), but marries his sister (bad! - and she would have remembered anyways when Glaurung died, regardless of how he died, I think that's implied in the text).

I deliberately didn't talk about his bandits, because... well... he made the decision to throw in with a group of outlaws. And that's not outlaw like 'Beren was an outlaw, being hunted by the local power, namely Sauron' - it's outlaw like 'let's rob, rape, and ruin the local humans for our own benefit'. Remember their response to Mim, which is to shoot (to kill!) at him and his sons, then take over their house? It's nice that he tried to lead them away from that, but the whole thing was one long string of bad decisions. (The wiki also suggests that Turin wouldn't have killed Forweg had he known it was him, so, y'know, don't give him too much credit.)

As for Niniel... when someone comes to you with literally no memory of anything, and you take personal care of them in restoring them to adult functioning, it seems pretty obvious that they're going to effectively imprint on you. I'm not sure how much this is the case (the wiki pretty much claims the women of Brethil + Brandir were responsible for her care), but if it is, asking someone who's that dependent on you to marry you is actually kinda skeevy.

But yes: Turin's decisions surrounding Nienor were actually good, knowing what he knew. Had he not gotten himself knocked out, he could have faced real consequences that weren't his fault...

... because they were his sister's. She's under Morgoth's curse too, and her mind-wiping came about because she tried to take on a dragon face to face. That was her bad decision.

Originally Posted by Galadriel55

I think Turin's fate is also in part due to his inability to keep his head down; he cannot be a lesser man than he is. He tries to start fresh time and time again, but he cannot be less than what he can. Did he have a position or an honour that he didn't deserve? No. He really deserved all, he was that good, and he couldn't suppress the effort in himself. All he had to do was be second best, settle down, let someone else make the calls. But he had to fight to his full potential, had to live to his full potential, take charge of his own life - Master his Fate, be the one who makes the calls of his life rather than letting it flow where it would by the choices of other men. Only with the Curse, as you said, do all your efforts - which are good efforts! - turn everything around them sour. Turin's choices and behaviours aren't always great, but they often make a lot of sense in the context of what he knows. There are many other people who also aren't your perfect goody-two-shoes, but no one is as unlucky as Turin.

I'm not sure I agree. Turin was great at getting people to follow him, but abysmally terrible at choosing where to lead them. The outlaws died because Turin led them to camp with someone who utterly hated them; Nargothrond died because he preferred open battle to stealth. The one time people refused to follow him, his attack on Glaurung was 100% successful.

A charismatic, brave, and strong leader who leads you into disaster every time sounds like one of the worst things you could have, actually.

hS

[Urwen]

If time-travel existed in Middle Earth, so many issues could be fixed and many characters would have a happy ending.


Come to think of it, will the Valar allow their family to exist again? He is their chosen champion, the one who would destroy Morgoth once and for all during the final battle of the world. Surely they would allow his family to live together with him as his reward for getting rid of the No.1 Enemy of Arda?

[Urwen]

It would be a nice dramedy: The Curse of CoH. I can see it now.....

Curse of Children of Hurin


MORGOTH:
He started it! He questioned my authority!


ERU:
So you saw fit to curse not only him, but his entire family.


MORGOTH:
It seemed like a good idea at a time...


ERU:
Everything seems like a good idea at a time to you. Including destroying the very creations your brothers and sisters put their hearts and minds into...


HURIN:
Yeah, what do you have to say for yourself, Morgy?


MORGOTH:
You and your family deserved it, you insolent cur. And don't call me 'Morgy' ever again!

Did you enjoy my little teaser.....?

[Huinesoron]

Originally Posted by Urwen

If time-travel existed in Middle Earth, so many issues could be fixed and many characters would have a happy ending.

If time travel existed in Middle-earth, Melkor would have done even more horrible things while the Valar hesitated over the advisability of them.

Originally Posted by Urwen

Come to think of it, will the Valar allow their family to exist again? He is their chosen champion, the one who would destroy Morgoth once and for all during the final battle of the world. Surely they would allow his family to live together with him as his reward for getting rid of the No.1 Enemy of Arda?

Out of their jurisdiction. Resurrecting Beren and granting Luthien the Gift of Men was a decision of Iluvatar, not of Mandos or even Manwe, and came about specifically because the Doomsman couldn't change those fates. Since the House of Hurin are all headed to the same place, Luthien's plea doesn't apply; they can all go on to whatever awaits Men together.

But that's a good thing! The Gift of Men is just that - a gift. They're not going into oblivion, but to something that the Elves, the Valar, and the One consider to be better than lingering in Arda. The desire to stay over-long is a corruption of Melkor, and was the downfall of Numenor.

Though, to be kind, we might imagine that the kids got to hang about in Mandos until their parents showed up. It was only a couple of years, and they probably needed the counselling time! That way they can all head out into the unknown, together at last for the first time.

(For Lalaith, we might need to invoke the old idea of children being set apart in some way, and permitted to wait until their parents arrive to bear them onwards; or else she can greet them Outside and show them around as their own personal Sun.)

hS

[Galadriel55]

Originally Posted by Urwen

If time-travel existed in Middle Earth, so many issues could be fixed and many characters would have a happy ending.


Come to think of it, will the Valar allow their family to exist again? He is their chosen champion, the one who would destroy Morgoth once and for all during the final battle of the world. Surely they would allow his family to live together with him as his reward for getting rid of the No.1 Enemy of Arda?

I almost wonder if Turin is the one to finally defeat Morgoth because he has the most hate and rage against the guy. Was there anyone else that Morgoth messed up as badly? Who hated him as much?

I like to imagine Turin defeating him not so much by his strength as by the power of his fury and his despair, finally turned directly against the cause of his misery and enemy he has tried to oppose all his life...

[Galadriel55]

Originally Posted by Huinesoron

As for Niniel... when someone comes to you with literally no memory of anything, and you take personal care of them in restoring them to adult functioning, it seems pretty obvious that they're going to effectively imprint on you. I'm not sure how much this is the case (the wiki pretty much claims the women of Brethil + Brandir were responsible for her care), but if it is, asking someone who's that dependent on you to marry you is actually kinda skeevy.

But yes: Turin's decisions surrounding Nienor were actually good, knowing what he knew. Had he not gotten himself knocked out, he could have faced real consequences that weren't his fault...

... because they were his sister's. She's under Morgoth's curse too, and her mind-wiping came about because she tried to take on a dragon face to face. That was her bad decision.

Well, I guess you could say that it takes two to make a bad marriage...

Originally Posted by Hui

I'm not sure I agree. Turin was great at getting people to follow him, but abysmally terrible at choosing where to lead them. The outlaws died because Turin led them to camp with someone who utterly hated them; Nargothrond died because he preferred open battle to stealth. The one time people refused to follow him, his attack on Glaurung was 100% successful.

A charismatic, brave, and strong leader who leads you into disaster every time sounds like one of the worst things you could have, actually.

Again, though, you are judging the decisions by the result. Oh course, if we know ahead of time that the result will be bad, we won't make that choice. Try making those choices in Turin's place knowing what he knows and not what you know.

Let me give you a couple examples of alternative histories. Nargothrond continues its policy of secrecy, doesn't stick its head out. Doriath falls, Gondolin falls, eventually Morgoth concentrates his forces on Nargothrond which eventually also falls, and so what was the point of its existence? To prolong the suffering? Or to make an actual change in the war against Morgoth? Or how about this. The battle at Tumhalad goes somewhat differently; Glaurung is defeated at Nargothrond; Elves and Men rally to Nargothrond; their forces grow and push back Morgoth and the Easterlings, perhaps liberating Hithlum, perhaps Dorthonion, perhaps even beyond - who knows, perhaps knocking on his very door.

We as readers tend to judge events based on the outcome, and with the knowledge that Morgoth cannot be defeated with local efforts; we are too focused on the necessity Earendil and the forces of the Valar. But Turin doesn't know about Earendil. No one knows about Earendil. Earendil himself doesn't know about his importance. So I maintain that we allow for multiple possible outcomes for Turin's decisions.

I guess the big problem specifically with Nargothrond was that there ended up a Man, with Mannish ambitions, leading a group of Elves, with Elvish thinking. Turin was not the only Man in the surrounding events who would choose risk over comfort so as to be able to share in the struggles of their homeland and make an impact against Morgoth. An Elf might have infinite patience and possibly an idea that eventually things might be different; and Elf might hope to outlive Morgoth at least until the tides turn. A Man must make his impact when he can, and the Elvish secrecy naturally seems like strength wasted unless you know what you're saving the strength for. We see the thought of fighting while you can in wiser Men than Turin, and the idea makes sense. Elves hope for a distant future, Men rely on themselves to shape that future. Maybe it's not a good idea to mix the two in the first place. Maybe Nargothrond is not the best place to enact this desire. Maybe Turin has too concentrated a theme of making his own fate. But I cannot call it an absolutely bad idea. I mean, with the same logic we should call the Nirnaeth a terrible idea and name Maedhros a terrible strategist. A Battle that meant to succeed, and had all the potential to succeed (assuming we don't look ahead to Earendil etc) - but we judge it by its failure rather than its potential. Maedhros had a reason to act as he did, and so did all the participants. Judging decisions by their outcomes only works when you already know the outcome; I am looking at the decision process a priori, so to speak.


Edit: crossed with Urwen. It's a busy thread!