The economy of Arnor (as seen in The Hobbit)

[Faramir Jones]

Thanks for starting this thread, Huinesoron.

I agree with you that the first response to the 2 quotations from The Hobbit is that the book is 'children's fantasy and wasn't intended to be set in Middle-earth'.

I also agree with you in seeing the Rangers, including their Chieftain, undertaking tasks for hire, as individuals and groups. The big proviso, as I see it, is that such work would need to be consistent with their duty of protecting 'their people'. This would keep up an image of them available for exploitation when Arnor was restored, something I'm presuming happened after King Elessar was crowned.

You may be right about there being Dunlending warriors offering their services for hire, people the Rangers presumably then dealt with, whether for hire or not.

In terms of 'Expert Treasure-Hunter', as you say there may be a lucrative, though very dangerous opportunity for some people in this area. When you say that perhaps, after thousands of years, there wasn't much left to steal in Arnor, it is possible, though I would add the proviso 'easily' before 'steal'. I would point out a certain barrow-wight who imprisoned 4 hobbits appeared to have a lot of treasure. But then, perhaps an average treasure-hunter would avoid such great risks!

I remember when the Fellowship was in Moria, Sam asking if there were 'piles of jewels and gold lying about here still?' Gandalf replied that there was nothing of value left in the 'upper halls', due to so much plunder by the Orcs. Further down, the 'shafts and treasuries down in the deep places' were drowned in water or in 'a shadow of fear', that shadow presumably being Balrog-shaped.

I don't think Fram would have considered himself a 'treasure hunter'; such a description would have been scornfully rejected by such a warrior. His actions seem to bear this out. If he was a real 'treasure hunter' I would have expected him to bargain with the Dwarves for a share of Scatha's hoard, instead of insulting them... If he was in that business, it would have been best to walk away with a share of the hoard, which would have been a lot, and the kudos of being a dragon-slayer.

[Nerwen]

Then there's Tom, Bert and William, who had accumulated some of their stash from "plundering other plunderers". Would they qualify as "average treasure hunters"?

[Huinesoron]

Originally Posted by Faramir Jones

I also agree with you in seeing the Rangers, including their Chieftain, undertaking tasks for hire, as individuals and groups. The big proviso, as I see it, is that such work would need to be consistent with their duty of protecting 'their people'. This would keep up an image of them available for exploitation when Arnor was restored, something I'm presuming happened after King Elessar was crowned.

You may be right about there being Dunlending warriors offering their services for hire, people the Rangers presumably then dealt with, whether for hire or not.

I certainly agree with that! I get the impression that the Rangers kind of pretended to be independent wanderers, with the fact that they were still an organised kingdom-in-hiding pretty well hidden; it'd be interesting to see how they would balance that with also maintaining consistent values.

(I'm also now imagining an AU where the Quest of Erebor takes place ten years later, and the fourteenth member is 20-year-old Estel of Rivendell...)

Originally Posted by Faramir Jones

In terms of 'Expert Treasure-Hunter', as you say there may be a lucrative, though very dangerous opportunity for some people in this area. When you say that perhaps, after thousands of years, there wasn't much left to steal in Arnor, it is possible, though I would add the proviso 'easily' before 'steal'. I would point out a certain barrow-wight who imprisoned 4 hobbits appeared to have a lot of treasure. But then, perhaps an average treasure-hunter would avoid such great risks!

I remember when the Fellowship was in Moria, Sam asking if there were 'piles of jewels and gold lying about here still?' Gandalf replied that there was nothing of value left in the 'upper halls', due to so much plunder by the Orcs. Further down, the 'shafts and treasuries down in the deep places' were drowned in water or in 'a shadow of fear', that shadow presumably being Balrog-shaped.

I don't think Fram would have considered himself a 'treasure hunter'; such a description would have been scornfully rejected by such a warrior. His actions seem to bear this out. If he was a real 'treasure hunter' I would have expected him to bargain with the Dwarves for a share of Scatha's hoard, instead of insulting them... If he was in that business, it would have been best to walk away with a share of the hoard, which would have been a lot, and the kudos of being a dragon-slayer.

Point taken about Fram. And about everything else - I'd kind of forgotten the Barrows, but heck, they're right next to the last chunks of Arnor civilisation, they must get raided occasionally. I suppose being haunted would add considerably to the longevity of a tomb.

Originally Posted by Nerwen

Then there's Tom, Bert and William, who had accumulated some of their stash from "plundering other plunderers". Would they qualify as "average treasure hunters"?

If they managed to pilfer swords of Gondolinic origin, I'd say they were Expert level! I'm still not sure how Biter and Beater made it out of Beleriand - I've theorised about Durin's Bane stealing a different sword, but are we to assume that Orcs who besieged Gondolin made it out to the east?

... huh. Of course there's one person we know escaped the fall of Beleriand. Could Sauron have made off with the swords after the War of Wrath? And could he have gifted them to someone he wanted to turn into an ally - a Numenorean who would be swayed by the Gondolinic pedigree of the weapons, even more than by a magic ring - the Lord of the Nazgul? And could he have taken them with him when he founded the realm of Angmar - and had to leave them when he fled Earnur's armies?

Which would mean Biter and Beater (and Sting) were probably lost in the vicinity of Fornost. That puts them in the right area to be eventually raided by the Trolls (probably by way of several hoards in between, unless the movie's Tomb of the Nazgul should be considered, which, no). It kinda works!

hS

[Huinesoron]

Well, after getting a little further through The Hobbit, I've discovered that I'm wrong about the swords, at least.

Originally Posted by Roast Mutton

There were lots of clothes, too, hanging on the walls — too small for trolls, I am afraid they belonged to victims — and among them were several swords of various makes, shapes, and sizes. Two caught their eyes particularly, because of their beautiful scabbards and jewelled hilts.

So the swords are strongly implied to have been taken from living (at the time) victims - and not too long before, or else the clothes would have rotted away. Certainly the implication, given Gandalf's account a few lines later that three [trolls] had come down from the mountains and settled in the woods not far from the road: they had frightened everyone away from the district, and they waylaid strangers, is that they've only recently been taken.

So... from who? Elrond theorises that they were plundered from 'other plunderers' - so, treasure hunters-slash-bandits in the region. I assume they would be descendents of the Hillmen of Rhudaur, engaging in a sort of low-key squabble with the Rangers. Perhaps, indeed, the trolls' driving-out of these hypothetical Hillmen is what freed up the Rangers (ie, the 'Warriors' from earlier) to go deal with the Dunlendings?

I feel like I'm very high on the house of cards here. It's a bit precarious - but the view is first rate.

hS