Drawings, pictures and maps?

[gandalf85]

Great work, Fin, sorry for the late reply. Where I don't comment I agree:

Yes: Art of the Hobbit; fig. 1; p. 20; One morning early in the Quiet of the World; The Quest of Erebor – “It was on the morning of Tuesday, April the 25th, 2941, that Gandalf called to see Bilbo; and though he knew more or less what to expect his confidence was shaken.”

I think the picture works better before this paragraph.

Maybe: Art of the Hobbit; fig. 12; p. 35; Thorin’s letter to Bilbo; are we going to use this “Facsimile” of an English text in tengwar? If yes, then this is the place: The Broken Bridge - “on a quest of great treasure, the dwarf-hoards of the Kings under the Mountain, beneath Erebor in Dale, far off in the East.”

We have already abandoned the idea of this being a definitive in-universe text. Since this was created by Tolkien himself, I think we should use it. Feasibly, it could be a facsimile created by whoever compiled these materials.

Maybe: Art of the Hobbit; fig. 20; p. 44; Rivendell looking West; Are we going to use this later reinterpretation of a false start?

I think it makes more sense to use fig. 21 instead. Even though this picture doesn't seem to contain any contradictions, it seems redundant.

Yes: Art of the Hobbit; fig. 35; p. 60; The Misty Mountains; Relations of the Longbeard Dwarves and Men - “for many lives of Men the Long-beards controlled the Ered Mithrin, Erebor, and the Iron Hills, and all the east side of the Misty Mountains as far as the confines of Lorien; while the Men of the North dwelt in all the adjacent lands as far south as the Great Dwarf Road that cut through the Forest (the Old Forest Road was its ruinous remains in the Third Age) and then went North-east to the Iron Hills.”

Do you propose we put this picture with the footnote? I don't think it works here. I propose we instead put it after the paragraph containing "In the deeps of time and the beginning of that people he came to Azanulbizar, the Dimrill Dale, and in the caves above {Kibil-nala [> }Kheled-zaram{](1)}, the Mirrormere, in the east of the Misty Mountains, he made his dwelling, where after were the Mines of Moria renowned in song."

Yes: Art of the Hobbit; fig. 40; p. 64; Eagles’ Eyrie; The Quest of Erebor - “Of Bilbo's later adventures little more need be said here.” As part of a series of pictures about Bilbos adventure.

I like your idea of a series of pictures for Bilbo's adventures, but I think this particular picture is too "sketchy" to be of any use -- it is hard to make anything out.

Yes: Art of the Hobbit; fig. 70; p. 103; View from the Back Door; The Quest of Erebor - “Of Bilbo's later adventures little more need be said here.” As part of a series of pictures about Bilbos adventure.

I think this image is a bit too "sketchy" to be used.

Yes: Art of The Hobbit; fig. 100; p. 137; Trail dust-jacket; QS, Cha. 35 - “Then the sun rose, and the host of the Valar prevailed, and all the dragons were destroyed, save two alone; and they fled into the East”

I think we should cutout only the top of this picture. With the sun, mountains, and the dragon.

Yes: Art of LotR; Frontispiece; p. 16; Cutout of fig. 170, p. 214 Dust-jacket design for The Fellowship of the Ring; The End of the Third Age - “Now all these things were achieved for the most part by the counsel and vigilance of Mithrandir, and in the last few days he was revealed as a lord of great reverence, and clad in white he rode into battle; but not until the time came for him to depart was it known that he had long guarded the Red Ring of Fire.”

I think we should cut out just the red ring.

Yes: Art of LotR; fig. 13; p. 31; Map of the Westmarch; The End the Third Age - “In the following year the Westmarch, from the Far Downs to the Tower Hills (Emyn Beraid), was added to the Shire by the gift of the King.”

This seems too "sketchy" to be useful.

Yes: Art of LotR; fig. 28; p. 49; The East Road, east of Bree; The Ring Set Out - “Over all the 400 miles to Elrond the hobbits were pursued by the terror”

This seems too "sketchy" to be useful.

Yes: Art of LotR; fig. 32; p. 54; Map of the route taken by the Black Riders; - “The other two went through the central Shire, until they reached the East Road, probably near the Three-Farthing Stone. (These were probably Khamûl and one of his companions, from Dol Guldur; and Khamûl was the most ready of all (save the Witch-King) to perceive the presence of the Ring, but also the one whose power was most confused and diminished by sunlight). Drawn by the Ring Khamûl went to Hobbiton which he reached at evening on Friday September the twenty-third.”

This seems too "sketchy" to be useful.

Maybe: Art of LotR; fig. 66; p. 91; Rune on Sam’s box; I don’t see how we could use that.

Agreed, I don't think we can use this.

Yes: Art of LotR; fig. 72; p. 98; Parth Galen, Tol Brandir, and Amon Lhaw; The Treason of Isengard - “Among the deeds of all the company after the breaking of the Fellowship of the Ring were the repentance and death of Boromir, and his funeral in a boat committed to the Falls of Rauros”

I think this is too "sketchy" to include.

Yes: Art of LotR; fig. 84; p. 116; Minas Morgul gate; The Stewards - “he rode with a small escort of knights to the gate of Minas Morgul.”

I think this is too "sketchy" to include.

Maybe: Art of LotR; fig. 97; p. 130; Simplified plan of Shelob’s lair; I don’t think this is worth being given in our text

Agreed, this shouldn't be used.

Maybe: Art of LotR; fig. 142; p. 180; Three aerial views of Mountians:
upper left: The only formation of Mountains that I can find on a Map that looks like this is the Westward thrust of the Ered Lindon north of Forlindon (compare fig. 70, 157 & 159). But in the Maps the rivers are missing. If that is the right identification, the the place for it could be: QS, Cha. 18 - “For Mount Rerir, and about it many lesser heights, stood out from the main range of Ered Lindon westward; and in the angle between Rerir and Ered Lindon there was a lake, shadowed by mountains on all sides save the south. This was Lake Helevorn, deep and dark, and beside it Caranthir had his abode;”;

The mountains north of Forlindon look like the closest match to me as well.

Yes: Art of LotR; fig. 154; p. 196; Sketch-plan of the Citadel of Minas Tirith; The War of the Ring - “for the city of Minas Tirith was encircled by the armies of Mordor and was perishing in flame.”

This seems too "sketchy" to me.

Yes: Art of LotR; fig. 157; p. 200; Map of the northern part of Middle-earth; I think we should combine this Map with fig. 201, but I am open for suggestions where to put it.
Yes: Art of LotR; fig. 158; p. 201; Map of the southern part of Middle-earth; I think we should combine this Map with fig. 200, but I am open for suggestions where to put it.

There is no fig. 200 or fig. 201 in Art of LOTR. Which maps do you propose to combine?

Maybe: Art of LotR; fig. 192; p. 240; Unidentified contour sketch; I think this is a representation of the mountains around Minas Morgul. But how soever I think it is unusable.

I agree this is not usable.

Yes: Artist; Frontispiece; The Hills of the Morning; Akallabeth – Númenorean sailors exploring the East

Where do you propose we put this?

Maybe: Artist; no. 9; p. 15; Whitby; usabel, but where would be a seting for this?
Maybe: Artist; no. 10; p. 15; Ruins at West End of Whitby Abbey; usable, but where would be a seting for this?
Maybe: Artist; no. 17; p. 21; “Foxglove-Year”; usable, if we find a good place

I will look through the text and see if I can find a good place for these.

Maybe: Pictures; no. 43; Patterns (I); The flower on the lower left side and the plant looking like a Thristle left from the middle at thelower row could be used if we find nice places for it. The rest seems unusable.

This doesn't seem usable to me due to the newspaper in the background.

[Findegil]

Thanks for the repley, I didn't expacted it on the spot, because it is a big list.

Art of the Hobbit; fig. 1; p. 20; One morning early in the Quiet of the World: Okay, we can place it before the paragraph.

Art of the Hobbit; fig. 12; p. 35; Thorin’s letter to Bilbo: Yes it is Tolkien's work, but nonetheless it is special case. A bit similar to Thorin's Map where real world runes are used and English language or Balin's Tomb where his "translated" old norse Name is written in Cirith runes. I have still some doubts, but it is good to have your oppinion. Lets wait if an what others have to say on this.

Art of the Hobbit; fig. 20; p. 44; Rivendell looking West: If we take this at all, then as what Tolkien re-interpreted it: A look from Rivendell westward, which is not provided otherwise.

Art of the Hobbit; fig. 35; p. 60; The Misty Mountains: Not "into" the footnote of course, but after the § containing that note. I am far from my books in the moment, so I have to look up the picture, but from memory I find the reference to the mountians of Moria allone not fully fitting.

Art of the Hobbit; fig. 40; p. 64; Eagles’ Eyrie and Art of the Hobbit; fig. 70; p. 103; View from the Back Door: Sad as I find it you are probably right that these are to sketchy.

Art of The Hobbit; fig. 100; p. 137; Trail dust-jacket: I can see that a cut out would work well, but what would be our reason here to change Tolkien's original art?

Art of LotR; Frontispiece; p. 16; Cutout of fig. 170, p. 214 Dust-jacket design for The Fellowship of the Ring: I thought that the combination would be depiction of Gandalf guarding the Red Ring watching on what happend to the One Ring.

Art of LotR; fig. 13; p. 31; Map of the Westmarch: I remember that it was sketchy, but was it so bad? Have to look that up.

Art of LotR; fig. 28; p. 49; The East Road, east of Bree & Art of LotR; fig. 32; p. 54; Map of the route taken by the Black Riders: On this two I disagree. In combination with the text and the more global view of the Maps, these are helpfull in giving details of the road lay out and the movements of the Riders not found elsewhere.

Art of LotR; fig. 72; p. 98; Parth Galen, Tol Brandir, and Amon Lhaw: Again, I have to take another look on this picture before commenting.

Art of LotR; fig. 84; p. 116; Minas Morgul gate: I strongly disagree. It is sketch but it is not "sketchy". The disfigured entrance is very clear cut. I don't see why we shouldn't use it.

Art of LotR; fig. 154; p. 196; Sketch-plan of the Citadel of Minas Tirith: I would use this nonetheless, since it gives features not found elsewhere.

Art of LotR; fig. 157; p. 200; Map of the northern part of Middle-earth & Art of LotR; fig. 158; p. 201; Map of the southern part of Middle-earth: You have misread page no. for fig. no.. Look for fig. 157 and 158.

Artist; Frontispiece; The Hills of the Morning: Sorry, I have take this entrance from an old list reminders without making true what I reminded myself with it. It should have read:
Yes: Artist; Frontispiece; The Hills of the Morning; Aman and Mortal Men – “Thus it was that because of the Ban of the Valar the voyages of the Dúnedain in those days went ever eastward and not westward, from the darkness of the North to the heats of the South, and beyond the South to the Nether Darkness; and they came even into the inner seas, and sailed about Middle-earth and glimpsed from their high prows the Gates of Morning in the East.“

Pictures; no. 43; Patterns (I); The flower on the lower left side and the plant looking like a Thristle left from the middle at the lower row: I am relativly confident that I can remove the "news paper background", so that shouldn't be an argument right now. But as a matter of fact I would only undertake that endeavour when we find a place for these pictures.

For all I did not comment on I agree with gandalf85.

Respectfully
Findegil

[gandalf85]

Art of the Hobbit; fig. 12; p. 35; Thorin’s letter to Bilbo: I am more inclined to include it, but I am on the fence about this as well. I agree with waiting to see what the others think.

Art of the Hobbit; fig. 20; p. 44; Rivendell looking West: That's a good point. I will look for a place to put it.

Art of the Hobbit; fig. 35; p. 60; The Misty Mountains: OK, I agree with your placement.

Art of The Hobbit; fig. 100; p. 137; Trail dust-jacket: I was thinking we should do a cut-out since the work is clearly unfinished/partially missing and because it was clearly intended to be a cover to The Hobbit. However, I think if we can remove the text (The Hobbit and J. R. R. Tolkien) then we can include the whole thing, despite its unfinished state.

Art of LotR; Frontispiece; p. 16; Cutout of fig. 170, p. 214 Dust-jacket design for The Fellowship of the Ring: I see. I like that interpretation and agree to keeping the whole image.

Art of LotR; fig. 13; p. 31; Map of the Westmarch; Art of LotR; fig. 28; p. 49; The East Road, east of Bree & Art of LotR; fig. 32; p. 54; Map of the route taken by the Black Riders: I guess these are pretty useful despite their sketchy nature. I agree to include them.

Art of LotR; fig. 72; p. 98; Parth Galen, Tol Brandir, and Amon Lhaw; Art of LotR; fig. 84; p. 116; Minas Morgul gate; Art of LotR; fig. 154; p. 196; Sketch-plan of the Citadel of Minas Tirith: Looking back at these, I definitely agree with including them.

Art of LotR; fig. 157; p. 200; Map of the northern part of Middle-earth & Art of LotR; fig. 158; p. 201; Map of the southern part of Middle-earth: Whoops, my bad. I agree with including these maps.

Artist; Frontispiece; The Hills of the Morning: OK, that seems like a good place to put this picture.

Pictures; no. 43; Patterns (I); The flower on the lower left side and the plant looking like a Thristle left from the middle at the lower row: OK, if we can remove the newspaper background I agree with including it. I will look for a place to put it.