The Silmarillion in the Vernacular

[Pitchwife]

[OT]

Originally Posted by Thinlómien

Also to be fair I think The Lord of the Rings is, in some ways, a lot more mature work than The Silmarillion. Sure, Silm has suicide and incest and genocide and no happy ending, but it is mostly told from a rather detached perspective. It is, in a sense, very close to whether you would expose your children to any traditional mythology at a young age.

While LotR? Is actually super creepy and emotionally affecting at times. The descriptions can be very vivid and you get attached to the characters much easier, and therefore you as a reader are probably much more worried about Frodo's fate than you ever were for say Túrin's.

Yep, LotR was a huge step forward in Tolkien's development as a writer, and I think he knew it - hence the reworking of the Great Tales in a more detailed, vivid, LotR-ish style that brought us the prose Narn, Tuor and his Coming to Gondolin etc. Whereas the Silmarillion reads more like an Elven bible, its gruesome parts tempered by the distanced mode of telling - which is why the Old Testament isn't usually considered unfit for children (or is it?).[/OT]

As to the topic proper, I fear I have little to contribute, having neither children nor underage siblings, and I'm not sure the cats and dogs would appreciate being told about Huan and Tevildo, so... as you were.

[William Cloud Hicklin]

It's worth pointing out that even in the QS proper, and the Annals, the post-LR material tends toward a closer focus with more dialogue and psychology, as in the Finwe/Miriel story; or in the Silmarillion's "short Turin" which largely came from the Grey Annals.

[Rune Son of Bjarne]

Originally Posted by Thinlómien

I very much doubt I would have such good grasp of the myriad Silm characters, places and family trees if I hadn't absorbed them back then with the wonderful memory children have. .

When I first read the Silmarillion I tended to skim a lot of the early chapters, and to this day I have a hard time remembering the different valar etc.

Originally Posted by Pitchwife

[OT]

Yep, LotR was a huge step forward in Tolkien's development as a writer, and I think he knew it - hence the reworking of the Great Tales in a more detailed, vivid, LotR-ish style that brought us the prose Narn, Tuor and his Coming to Gondolin etc. Whereas the Silmarillion reads more like an Elven bible, its gruesome parts tempered by the distanced mode of telling - which is why the Old Testament isn't usually considered unfit for children (or is it?).[/OT]

Bible?
I always saw it as a history text book in style. You know, first semester of your undergrad you have to pick up "A brief history of middle-earth". Just to set the stage for later studies.

[Inziladun]

Originally Posted by Pitchwife

Whereas the Silmarillion reads more like an Elven bible, its gruesome parts tempered by the distanced mode of telling - which is why the Old Testament isn't usually considered unfit for children (or is it?).[/OT]

Ah, but I love the way The Silmarillion reads! Old-fashioned language has always been an interest of mine (probably explains too why my Bible is the KJV).

[Lhunardawen]

[OT]

Originally Posted by Inziladun

Ah, but I love the way The Silmarillion reads! Old-fashioned language has always been an interest of mine (probably explains too why my Bible is the KJV).

I was in high school when I read it the first time so no, not really a child, but so do I!

I'm curious though, Zil, if you've ever read The Message version and what you think of it.
[/OT]

Unlike Rune, the Valaquenta and knowing the Valar's distinctive characteristics was exciting to me, it probably seemed a bit like animal taxonomy to me at the time. And it was fun seeing all the genealogies. I think I might have even read through the entire index of names at one point, just because.

Which brings me to this question: Hui, do you think your kids would be too overwhelmed with the idea that there are beings in "Elves" who can control different elements (so to speak), if they ever become directly relevant to your retelling of the story?

Originally Posted by G55

Because I don't remember TH well at all

At that rate? You have quite a memory! (Obligatory - or maybe not - admission: I don't remember TH at all.)

[Inziladun]

Originally Posted by Lhunardawen

I'm curious though, Zil, if you've ever read The Message version and what you think of it.

I have to say I'm unfamiliar with it.

[Pitchwife]

Originally Posted by Lhunardawen

I think I might have even read through the entire index of names at one point, just because.

Is it weird that the index and the appendix on elements in Quenya and Sindarin names may well be the parts I've read most often? The map, too.

[Legate of Amon Lanc]

Originally Posted by Pitchwife

Is it weird that the index and the appendix on elements in Quenya and Sindarin names may well be the parts I've read most often? The map, too.

Is this the moment when I'm allowed to say that I have read the LotR names index before I read the actual story? (And the point was exactly to marvel at the amount of amazing names and locations that all sounded so exciting even though I had no idea what they were, with an occasional translation of the name on the side.)

In the same vein, looking at maps was a necessary part of the reading (call it multimedial experience), and I may not have read the Elvish languages "dictionary" the most often, but before the first time I finished the Sil - and possibly even LotR - I had read it several times and knew most of the basic words. I was about eight-ish around that time.

Depending how much "linguistic" your kids are, Hui, you might find them devouring the dictionary if you actually let them loose on it, and it might add an extra dimension to the whole "people whose names start with F-" issue. I don't know how much such an experience can be generalised, but it seems to me that there is a certain fascination with strange names among many children, which manifests equally in areas like Tolkien or for example kids learning names of dinosaurs very easily, and being actually super interested in learning them. It may be that it is not as common as I perceive it to be, or that your kids may not be interested in that, but an eight-year-old me would have been perfectly happy to be entertained for several hours with a map and a dictionary even without the story.

In any case, it is a splendid testimony and I can only say that this sounds like parenting done right. And I join those who marvel at you being able to remember all the facts correctly, or more like, feeling confident enough to tell that. I used to, but I would be very hesitant and afraid that I would mix up some of the F- people. But I am also much more confident in The Hobbit and LotR - or, say, the Ainulindalë, but not the "middle part" of Sil. Perhaps it is because I was never so much into the cloak-and-dagger family-dramas which form the bulk of it. I liked the "myths" about how the first Elves or first Men came here or there or about the Trees or Sun and Moon, but found the repeated unsuccesful ventures against Morgoth and recurring personal tragedies of individuals pretty dull and waited for something interesting to happen. But if you used Fëanor to illustrate the destructive potential of anger, then, well... that's some use of the story, hats off.

But I wanted to say: I commend you for remembering all this, but I am absolutely not surprised at your kids keeping track of it, and I would absolutely not fear them not being able to remember the names. Because that's what kids do. I would rather fear, if this keeps up, that in a couple of years, you might need to revise who was who or what was the difference between Brithombar and Eglarest, because they will know, and you might not.

[Huinesoron]

We made it through Turin!

Stars and water he's hard work. But I've finally managed to bump off not just Turin, but his entire family and most of his friends and enemies as well. Thingol is still alive, but... I think he's it? Well, Morgoth, I guess.

Now to decide whether to wrap up the Saga of Turin Kills Everyone by killing Thingol too (it is too his fault), or give myself a break and go visit Gondolin for a bit.

...

Stars... after maybe one session of Gondolin, I don't get another break from deaths until Earendil reaches Valinor, do I?

hS

[Galadriel55]

Originally Posted by Huinesoron

Stars... after maybe one session of Gondolin, I don't get another break from deaths until Earendil reaches Valinor, do I?

Well...

Beren and Luthien live happily ever after - and die.
Dior gets to be king - and promptly dies.
Everyone in Doriath except for Elwing dies.
Then, everyone in the Grey Havens except for Elwing dies. Oh, and I guess Elrond and Elros. They don't die.

I guess the only people to Not Die before Earendil reaches Valinor are Tuor and Idril, who sail into the sunset and live forever. Presumably.

(And if someone can explain why that cheek Tuor gets to be counted among the Elves but the Gift of Men is irrevocable for Beren and everyone else in the legendarium, that would be nice to know. Also, if Earendil is the first "Middle-earthian" to reach Valinor since the Exile of the Noldor, where did Tuor and Idril go? I sometimes imagine them locked in some timeless bubble on one of the Enchanted Islands amid the weird reality-bending border that the Valar put up, enjoying each other's company for eternity outside the flow of normal time, thus conveniently avoiding both the where and the how questions.)