Would the remaining elvish strongholds help Eomer and his exile riders?

[Galadriel55]

Originally Posted by Victariongreyjoy

In the movie he gets banished from Rohan. Would the Woodland Realm, Rivendell or Lothlorien give him and the exiles shelter and protection if he travelled there?

I have not watched the movie in ages but here is a Books-based answer: until Eomer met Aragorn, Gimli, Legolas, and later some other Elves, he firmly believed, like most of the Men of his time, that Elves are in some ways even more dangerous than Orcs, and it is deadly to have dealings with them. Therefore, it would not even occur to him to seek refuge in an Elven abode.

If he somehow did plead his case in some Elven kingdom, I feel like they would turn a sympathetic ear - I feel that Elves do that whenever a mortal is brave enough to seek them out and speak their case. However, that also requires Eomer to speak to the Elves in the manner of, say, Aragorn in Lorien or Beren in Nargothrond - or even Frodo with Gildor. And he is more likely to take after Boromir in his attitude towards Elves, which would not bode well for him. *cue to notch*

So, in a books-based answer, pre-War Eomer would be highly unlikely to seek aid with Elves, but if he had done it - and properly - they would probably hear him out. As for assistance, well, that's a different question, and depends on what exactly that entails in that alternate reality.

[Victariongreyjoy]

Originally Posted by Galadriel55

I have not watched the movie in ages but here is a Books-based answer: until Eomer met Aragorn, Gimli, Legolas, and later some other Elves, he firmly believed, like most of the Men of his time, that Elves are in some ways even more dangerous than Orcs, and it is deadly to have dealings with them. Therefore, it would not even occur to him to seek refuge in an Elven abode.

If he somehow did plead his case in some Elven kingdom, I feel like they would turn a sympathetic ear - I feel that Elves do that whenever a mortal is brave enough to seek them out and speak their case. However, that also requires Eomer to speak to the Elves in the manner of, say, Aragorn in Lorien or Beren in Nargothrond - or even Frodo with Gildor. And he is more likely to take after Boromir in his attitude towards Elves, which would not bode well for him. *cue to notch*

So, in a books-based answer, pre-War Eomer would be highly unlikely to seek aid with Elves, but if he had done it - and properly - they would probably hear him out. As for assistance, well, that's a different question, and depends on what exactly that entails in that alternate reality.

Do you think a person like Theoden is more suitable negotiator than Eomer? Or even his forefather Eorl the Young?

[Galadriel55]

Originally Posted by Victariongreyjoy

Do you think a person like Theoden is more suitable negotiator than Eomer? Or even his forefather Eorl the Young?

I don't think Theoden's view of Elves is much different than Eomer's - or any of the Rohirrim of their time, before the events of LOTR. It comes down to their cultural attitude towards Elves: we see it exemplified in Eomer, but he just voices the superstition of their people. Besides, being Wormtongue's puppet is a score against Theoden.

As for Eorl, he seemed like a guy willing to try weird and different things, who wasn't content to play it safe. In UT he seems less trustful of Lorien's good intentions than Borondir when he passed its mist, but he was also not particularly convinced that it should be evil. So perhaps if he were to turn into Lorien he would have kept a more open mind, or at least a more courteous manner, than would Eomer.

May I ask you a question in turn: why do you imagine these characters seeking aid in Lorien and other Elven Kingdoms? What would be driving these characters to the situation you describe? Why Elves - as opposed to other Men, who are much more familiar to the Rohirrim? And what would Eomer (Theoden, Eorl) be seeking with these people?

[Victariongreyjoy]

Originally Posted by Galadriel55

I don't think Theoden's view of Elves is much different than Eomer's - or any of the Rohirrim of their time, before the events of LOTR. It comes down to their cultural attitude towards Elves: we see it exemplified in Eomer, but he just voices the superstition of their people. Besides, being Wormtongue's puppet is a score against Theoden.

As for Eorl, he seemed like a guy willing to try weird and different things, who wasn't content to play it safe. In UT he seems less trustful of Lorien's good intentions than Borondir when he passed its mist, but he was also not particularly convinced that it should be evil. So perhaps if he were to turn into Lorien he would have kept a more open mind, or at least a more courteous manner, than would Eomer.

May I ask you a question in turn: why do you imagine these characters seeking aid in Lorien and other Elven Kingdoms? What would be driving these characters to the situation you describe? Why Elves - as opposed to other Men, who are much more familiar to the Rohirrim? And what would Eomer (Theoden, Eorl) be seeking with these people?

Because I think a interaction between Rohan and the elves would be interesting. In the movie, the Rohirrim are being depicted as braver and strong willed than Gondor(unfortunately) Maybe skeptic like Elrond would be more encourage to help Rohan if they came to Rivendell and pleading for their cause. The elves who lived during the first age, when elves fought with the Edain side by side, might see a bit of that strength in the Rohirrim.

[Galadriel55]

Originally Posted by Victariongreyjoy

Because I think a interaction between Rohan and the elves would be interesting. In the movie, the Rohirrim are being depicted as braver and strong willed than Gondor(unfortunately) Maybe skeptic like Elrond would be more encourage to help Rohan if they came to Rivendell and pleading for their cause. The elves who lived during the first age, when elves fought with the Edain side by side, might see a bit of that strength in the Rohirrim.

My issue with that is it seems like wishful thinking reasoning. Eomer will interact with Elves because you want the interaction to happen - but not because Eomer himself has any reason to seek it out. Do you know what I mean? Is there a way the story could have gone differently, in the would of alternate universes and wannabe scenarios, that would make Eomer likely to seek Elves before Gimli turned his head on the right way? Does he end up in Lorien by accident? Does he meet a passing Elf (but who? Legolas is the first in his time that we know to pass through Rohan). He might end up in the neighbouring Lorien by a twist of fortune, and we can hope that he has the sense to speak politely and not wave his sword around while shouting Eorling counter-jinxes. But a trip to Rivendell or Mirkwood requires more backstory. If you were to reinvent the story, what would you have happen to make him undertake such a long journey to a fey land?

[Boromir88]

I agree with G55, at the time you're referring to, whether it's book-Eomer or movie-Eomer, I don't think there's a reason Eomer would seek out the Elves for aid.

Granted, I can't think of a movie reason, because it's not something that's addressed. Even though it's a pretty big plot hole, because after meeting with Aragorn, Legolas, and Gimli near Fangorn (I believe that's where it is in the movies), Eomer says "We ride north." So, presumably they passed Lorien, considering Haldir's elves show up to Helm's Deep before Eomer's Rohirrim? Trying to unravel Jackson's plot holes will give me a headache though.

As for more book reasons, why it would most likely be Gondor, Eomer would go. Eomer mentions having seen Boromir once before and was saddened to learn of his death. Also his mother, Theodwyn (Theoden's sister) had ties to Gondor. Their parents were Thengel, who for a time lived in Gondor and married Morwen of Lossarnach.

[Huinesoron]

Someone said "if", and my ears pricked up...

The premise is that Eomer is banished from Rohan, and doesn't run into Aragorn et al on his way out. Perhaps Boromir tripped and fell off the Bridge of Khazad-Dum, so the entire Fellowship has headed east. Doesn't matter - all that matters is that they're not in Rohan.

If we're going to send him to meet the Elves, he's going to need a reason - and 'shelter and protection' doesn't cut it. Eomer isn't the type to run scared, so if he's leaving Rohan at all, it's either because a) he feels honour-bound to obey even an unjust command, or b) he has a plan to take the country back.

With that in mind, let's see if we can take him to see the Elves?

-Mirkwood: The easiest way to get Eomer into proximity with Mirkwood is to send him up Anduin to the old Éothéod. He's utterly convinced that he's failed his king, so he's straight-up leaving it all behind. He heads all the way to northern Mirkwood to reclaim the ancient capital of Framsburg and found a new kingdom.

If we assume the West doesn't fall in this scenario, and the Ring is still destroyed, then Eomer's new kingdom will be perfectly positioned to tap into the Mirkwood-Esgaroth-Dale trade route come the Fourth Age. All of those settlements were afflicted by the war, so a new, unbattered economy (especially one that may be able to supply dragon gold from the cold-wyrms of the Withered Heath, a la Fram) is going to do well. So he'll have a nice trade relationship with Thranduil.

He probably feels a bit guilty about the way Rohan was destroyed by Uruks, though. And I doubt War-Queen Eowyn will ever forgive him.

-Rivendell: This is the tricky one. How do we get Eomer to the House of Elrond? Well... let's send him earlier! While Boromir is riding through Rohan on his mission to take Faramir's dream to Imladris, his horse trips on a rock. Poor Boromir breaks both his legs, and Eomer (who was on rock-clearing duty that week) feels honour-bound to take up his quest on his behalf. Off he goes, and winds up at the Council of Elrond.

Let's say he joins the Fellowship, but ducks out before they enter Moria; we know he's kind of spooked by haunted caves. He probably justifies it as taking word to Theoden and Denethor. Unfortunately, by the time he arrives, Theoden is already well under Saruman's influence, and kicks him out.

Would he go all the way back to Rivendell? I think maybe - if he knew Saruman was involved. Taking word to the Wise that Saruman was in full Evil Overlord mode might have seemed like a good idea, especially if the Riders now believe Eomer abandoned them and so won't follow him anyway. Elrond, needless to say, would be happy to take him in, but wouldn't really do anything to help.

-Lorien: Far and away the easiest. "If the Wizard of the Ironstone Tower has ensorcelled our uncle," says Eowyn as Eomer prepares to leave, "then might not the Witch of Dwimordene restore him to his mind?"

Would Galadriel help? I think she'd be up for feeding and watering Eomer's band of adventurers, but she's not one to offer direct military aid. More likely she'd give him some words of wisdom, like "The voice of Saruman is a WORM that the TONGUES of Men should not repeat", in the hopes that he'd get the hint and go throw Grima off a cliff.

hS

[Victariongreyjoy]

Originally Posted by Boromir88

I agree with G55, at the time you're referring to, whether it's book-Eomer or movie-Eomer, I don't think there's a reason Eomer would seek out the Elves for aid.

Granted, I can't think of a movie reason, because it's not something that's addressed. Even though it's a pretty big plot hole, because after meeting with Aragorn, Legolas, and Gimli near Fangorn (I believe that's where it is in the movies), Eomer says "We ride north." So, presumably they passed Lorien, considering Haldir's elves show up to Helm's Deep before Eomer's Rohirrim? Trying to unravel Jackson's plot holes will give me a headache though.

As for more book reasons, why it would most likely be Gondor, Eomer would go. Eomer mentions having seen Boromir once before and was saddened to learn of his death. Also his mother, Theodwyn (Theoden's sister) had ties to Gondor. Their parents were Thengel, who for a time lived in Gondor and married Morwen of Lossarnach.

Why didn't Rohan and Gondor in the very late T.A have any contact with the elves, except for Lake Town with Thranduil.