Details in HOME about inventing Arwen?

[William Cloud Hicklin]

The earliest note on the matter that I'm aware of comes from a hasty time-scheme made just as he was resuming work on the chapters 'Minas Tirith' and 'The Muster of Rohan' in 1946. One very difficult note, as part of a series of projections for the end of the story, reads

"Aragorn ?discovers [?in lost] Palantir a ..?.. sprig of the Tree
He becomes King of M. Tirith (?wed to daughter of Elrond)"

It's worth pointing out that Elladan and Elrohir had not yet been invented at this time.

[mindil]

Thank you.
Page in HoME 7 or 8, please?

So this predated the appearance of Eowyn?
I was starting to think that JRRT hadn't given serious thought to love and marriage in LoTR until Eowyn showed up and started making eyes at Aragorn. It almost seemed like he stopped at that point and asked himself for the first time who Aragorn was really going to share the throne and his settled life with.

It certainly wasn't a question when Trotter was still a hobbit, which lasted through many iterations of the stay in Rivendell.

[William Cloud Hicklin]

Originally Posted by mindil

Thank you.
Page in HoME 7 or 8, please?

So this predated the appearance of Eowyn?
I was starting to think that JRRT hadn't given serious thought to love and marriage in LoTR until Eowyn showed up and started making eyes at Aragorn. It almost seemed like he stopped at that point and asked himself for the first time who Aragorn was really going to share the throne and his settled life with.

It certainly wasn't a question when Trotter was still a hobbit, which lasted through many iterations of the stay in Rivendell.

Unpublished manuscript.

Eowyn was already there, had been since 'The King of the Golden Hall.' Early on, she was going to be Aragorn's love interest, but Tolkien changed his mind. Then for a while she was going to die at the Pelennor, so no Faramir marriage.

[mindil]

Eowyn's potential Pelennor death is well documented.
The implication of her being the love interest is clear in HoME, too.

The combination doesn't provide for a Queen, though. Perhaps that's why JRRT had death/ no death versions going almost simultaneously, trying to figure out where A&E should go? Where does your manuscript fit in the sequence of Eowyn's death/no death endings?

Was the original thought at the time of your manuscript that Aragorn would lose Eowyn to death on the Pelennor and then turn to Arwen? That wouldn't wash well. Perhaps recognizing the impossibility of such a sudden transfer of devotion back to Rivendell was what ruled out Eowyn as even a temporary interest? And once Arwen was established as a long-standing fiancee, there was no obstacle to Eowyn living, and that's why her survival was settled?

But mostly, what position gives you access to unpublished manuscripts?

[William Cloud Hicklin]

Originally Posted by mindil

Eowyn's potential Pelennor death is well documented.
The implication of her being the love interest is clear in HoME, too.

The combination doesn't provide for a Queen, though. Perhaps that's why JRRT had death/ no death versions going almost simultaneously, trying to figure out where A&E should go? Where does your manuscript fit in the sequence of Eowyn's death/no death endings?

Was the original thought at the time of your manuscript that Aragorn would lose Eowyn to death on the Pelennor and then turn to Arwen? That wouldn't wash well. Perhaps recognizing the impossibility of such a sudden transfer of devotion back to Rivendell was what ruled out Eowyn as even a temporary interest? And once Arwen was established as a long-standing fiancee, there was no obstacle to Eowyn living, and that's why her survival was settled?

But mostly, what position gives you access to unpublished manuscripts?

By the time Tolkien wrote the jotted notes in question he had already decided on the Faramir marriage. Apparently right about that time, in fact, since on the previous page the entry "[Gandalf] rescues Eowyn" was an insertion, not originally present. But it must be emphasized that the paper in question was a flurry of possible turns in the account of the battle and its aftermath which had definitely not yet taken on anything like its familiar form.

As to date: there is no question that at this time Tolkien was working on what would become the first full draft of Minas Tirith; the entries appear to accord with the abortive draft which preceded it, in which the guardsman and his son were named Berethil and Gwindor. From the dating it is definitely certain that it precedes the start of what would become 'The Passing of the Grey Company,' in which Elrond's sons first appeared; everything still happens in February rather than March.

[William Cloud Hicklin]

Originally Posted by mindil

But mostly, what position gives you access to unpublished manuscripts?

See here et seq: http://www.forum.barrowdowns.com/sho...14&postcount=4

[mindil]

I saw and now reread the thread in question.
This still leaves the question of what position you are fortunate to occupy that gives you access to Marquette?
Can anyone get stuff from them? Is there an index that makes it easy to find a bit of this or that? Do they send scans by email?
Or do you hold a necessary professorship somewhere?
Or are you just sufficiently settled to be able to afford zillions of hours picking through the ore?

[William Cloud Hicklin]

Originally Posted by mindil

I saw and now reread the thread in question.
This still leaves the question of what position you are fortunate to occupy that gives you access to Marquette?
Can anyone get stuff from them? Is there an index that makes it easy to find a bit of this or that? Do they send scans by email?
Or do you hold a necessary professorship somewhere?
Or are you just sufficiently settled to be able to afford zillions of hours picking through the ore?

Well, I don't have any sort of "position;" I'm certainly not a professor! The long of the short of it is that I asked Christopher T, and he said yes. As for time- well, I'm retired. Got nothing but time.

[mindil]

Originally Posted by William Cloud Hicklin

The earliest note on the matter that I'm aware of comes from a hasty time-scheme made just as he was resuming work on the chapters 'Minas Tirith' and 'The Muster of Rohan' in 1946. One very difficult note, as part of a series of projections for the end of the story, reads



It's worth pointing out that Elladan and Elrohir had not yet been invented at this time.

BTW, I read that section of HoME backwards and forwards, a few months ago, and I came to a very different conclusion than CT about when JRRT took his long break. Granted, CT had more material to consider than he's given us, but from what we have, the texts can be attributed differently than he suggested, in a way that can be enlightening.
But that's a discussion for a different thread, and I don't have time now to pull my thoughts together about it. Maybe next week.