Etymology: Isengard and Helms Deep

[Rune Son of Bjarne]

Originally Posted by Huinesoron

Probably the strongest argument against this is that Isengard didn't start out as Isengard! Its first mention (Home VII, 'Of Hamilcar...') is as "Angrobel (or Irongarth)". No Isen in sight!

Helm's Deep is even more tortured: it looks like it started out as Dimgraef, then picked up a Helm figure - as Heorulf's Clough. It took several iterations (Helmshaugh) to hit Helm's Deep, so unless Tolkien is imagined to just happen to glance up at a map of Jutland and go 'hey, that says "helm" too!' there's no plausible version of this notion.

hS

Thanks Huie, this is the sort of stuff I was looking for to "disprove" the theory.

Originally Posted by Formendacil

And this is why one should always start with the HoME when one has a theory about names: if there is one thing Christopher Tolkien does thoroughly (to the point I've seen him accused of doing it to the exclusion of other "more interesting" things), it is trace the evolution of names--and evolve they often did. If you have a theory--as this Danish radio show did--based on final forms, you have to see if that theory still makes sense in light of the documented history.

That said, the idea that Tolkien could have taken some names from a Danish map really ISN'T an outlandish theory. Place names and Scandinavian languages are both things we know he was interested in--the idea that he might have spent some time looking at Danish place-names is entirely plausible, and if this were done at a sufficient remove from when he came to write Book III, it is entirely possible that the fittingness of some names could have struck him: recasting Norse words into (Old) English forms is something he would do.

Unfortunately for the radio show, it just isn't the simplest explanation in this case.

Now I do feel rather silly for starting a thread, rather than simply dusting off the old HoME series. Though I don't think I have it in complete form... I seemed to give up a few volumes in, for even though i fin imaginary etymology interesting it is not exactly what I would call "an easy read".

[Galadriel55]

To argue the devil's advocate here, though, it is possible for an influence to appear late in the history of name changes. Going from one name to another, not hitting quite the right one, and then seeing a name that sounds like exactly the thing. Hypothetically a connection is still possible - though again, more than a simple sound-alike would be required as proof of influence, because there are simply too many sound-alikes to treat each one seriously.

[Rune Son of Bjarne]

Originally Posted by Galadriel55

To argue the devil's advocate here, though, it is possible for an influence to appear late in the history of name changes. Going from one name to another, not hitting quite the right one, and then seeing a name that sounds like exactly the thing. Hypothetically a connection is still possible - though again, more than a simple sound-alike would be required as proof of influence, because there are simply too many sound-alikes to treat each one seriously.

While obviously Tolkien were inspired by real-life place names and history, he doesn't strike me as the kind of man to just outright copy/paste a name. I imagine him tinkering away, trying to make allsorts of linguistic ends tie together in a way that he found pleasing, but nobody else on this earth would understand the significance of (save for possibly Christopher).

Anyways, I agree it is entirely possible, but as Formendacil said it isn't necessarily the simplest explanation in this case.

[Formendacil]

Originally Posted by Rune Son of Bjarne

Now I do feel rather silly for starting a thread, rather than simply dusting off the old HoME series.

But if you don't post the inaccuracies of Danish radio commentary for us, how will we get to demonstrate our vast and superior knowledge?

[William Cloud Hicklin]

Well, as CT commented with regard to a possible link between the athel- in athelas and Anglo-Saxon æðele "noble, royal" - it wouldn't have still been an Anglo-Saxon word by the time he was done with it! Rather like A-S ent "giant" became something rather different....

I think the history of "Isengard" is well enough attested that it's pointless to look around for alternate histories. AFAIK Tolkien only ever lifted one name wholesale from a RW language, aside from Shire/Bree names (and The Hobbit's dwarf-names), and that back at the very beginning: Earendel. This isn't to say that certain elements weren't borrowed: ond "stone" he consciously used, as being what apparently is the only known word from the language of Britain's pre-Celtic inhabitants. And he admitted that he might have subconsciously been influenced by Gaelic nasc ("ring," but also "bond") when BS nazg came to him.

[Huinesoron]

Originally Posted by Formendacil

But if you don't post the inaccuracies of Danish radio commentary for us, how will we get to demonstrate our vast and superior knowledge?

Speaking for myself, I always love leafing through HoME to find out if a question is answerable. I run into all sorts of stuff that I'd otherwise gloss over. ^_^

Originally Posted by William Cloud Hicklin

This isn't to say that certain elements weren't borrowed: ond "stone" he consciously used, as being what apparently is the only known word from the language of Britain's pre-Celtic inhabitants.

Waitwhat?

[Five minutes of book-diving later]

Huh! So, after being sent by Tolkien Gateway to both Letters (where Tolkien indeed claims this, and says he remember it from when he was eight) and The History of the Hobbit, I've landed on Wikipedia's Ivernic/Ivernian language page. Or rather section, because sadly the theory - that ond ("stone") and fern ("good thing") entered Irish from proto-Celtic British invaders - has been generally discredited.

I really should read the Rateliff History again at some point...

hS

[Rune Son of Bjarne]

Apparently the guy who made the claims have now had a book published on the topic.

From the debate surrounding it, it seems to be a substandard piece of work that assumes correlation also implies causation.

I am very curious, but I don't want to help spread misinformation... Do I buy the book, so that I have something to fume about?

[Inziladun]

Originally Posted by Rune Son of Bjarne

Apparently the guy who made the claims have now had a book published on the topic.

Not surprising. Slap the "Tolkien" name on something, and fame and money are yours, is the thinking.

Originally Posted by Rune Son of Bjarne

I am very curious, but I don't want to help spread misinformation... Do I buy the book, so that I have something to fume about?

I wouldn't. There's quite enough to fume about as it is.

[Rune Son of Bjarne]

It just got worse.

Apparently after these claims got a bit of media attention a local library started an initiative to put up signs at placenames Tolkien supposedly borrowed. The mayor got involved, and now it is an official municipal project.

It is a bit of a backwater, so probably a desperate attempt at attracting tourists.


https://www.syddjurs.dk/da/nyheder/g...2975333014667/

https://www.tv2ostjylland.dk/syddjur...-paa-djursland