The Dead and The Undead

[Boromir88]

Originally Posted by Morthoron

In regards to the Dead Marshes, of course Tolkien was referring to his horrid experience in WWI seeing dead bloated soldiers staring lifelessly as they bobbed up from the murky water at the bottom of bomb craters and foxholes: "the Dead Marshes and the approaches to the Morannon owe something to Northern France after the Battle of the Somme."

Hey good to still see you around Morthoron. I know nothing about William Morris, so I can't add anything to that piece of information. I am familiar with the connection Tolkien makes between the Dead Marshes and Northern France. I believe in the letter he briefly writes the plot doesn't represent the World Wars, but perhaps the landscape did.

Which is the interpretation that made the most sense to me, because I think the descriptions of the landscape through the entire story are perhaps the most fascinating. The land has a "character" of its own, influenced by the people (or unknown things) who lived there. As Gandalf says to the Fellowship going through Hollin:

"I think we will rest here, not only today but tonight as well. There is a wholesome air about Hollin. Much evil must befall a country before it wholly forgets the Elves, if once they dwelt there."~The Ring Goes South

Then Legolas feels out of place, because it was a land inhabited by Celebrimbor and his followers. The Noldor had a better relationship with dwarves, so the land takes on the character of their inhabitants:

"That is true," said Legolas. "But the Elves of this land were of a race strange to us of the silvan folk, and the trees and the grass do not now remember them. Only I hear the stones lament them: deep they delved us, fair they wrought us, high they builded us; but they are gone. They are gone. They sought the Havens long ago."~ibid

So, we have the land of Hollin holding on faintly to the memory of its Noldor inhabitants, but it is only in the stones.

Perhaps the Dead Marshes are actually trapped spirits of those killed in the battle from the 2nd Age. It's a topic I'm not at all familiar with besides some basic understanding. Could they be something like a "memory imprint" on the land? Similar to Hollin, where the memory of the Noldor still resides in the stones?

Huey and G55, I agree that the quote from The Rivers and Beacon-hills of Gondor does remove a lot of the interest in the "legend" of Baldor's disappearance. Of course the Grey Company come across his remains, but the legend of what exactly happened to him remained. In any case, the essay still has yet to be published in full, so I think the full context could still be missing. It certainly has me even more excited about the new Tolkien book.

Regarding Ar-Pharazon and the Numenoreans, again what happens to the fëar after dead is something not at all in my wheelhouse. I'm hoping when I read The Silmarillion again I will remember more, but until then I differ to other members.

I wonder if understanding the Ringwraiths will shed some light on the Numenoreans who rebelled against the Valar? I don't think it would be the same extent as the Ringwraiths, but it might give some ideas.

In Letter 246, there is the note the Witch-King had been "reduced to impotence" after his body was slain by Merry and Eowyn.

The importance of Merry's blade is re-iterated in a few places. A blade enchanted with spells, specifically designed to be the "bane of Mordor." And the quote from the Lord of the Rings proper:

No other blade, not though mightier hands had wielded it, would have dealt that foe a wound so bitter, cleaving the undead flesh, breaking the spell that knit his unseen sinews to his will.~Battle of Pelennor Fields

So the Witch-King's undead body was destroyed, "reduced to impotence" to me suggest that as a spirit the Witch-King was completely helpless and powerless. They required a body to have any power in the living world. This makes them different from the Oath-breakers in the fact that we know the Oath-breakers were not powerless, even though they could not interact with physical objects. The Ringwraiths, without a body were "impotent.” However, as Gandalf points out in Rivendell, at the Fords of Bruinen, the best hope is their mounts were killed, because the Ringwraiths would not have been killed in the flood.

I believe though, the Ringwraiths spirits were binded to Sauron, or perhaps to their 9 Rings which Sauron held? I remember in my thread about the Ringwraiths, coming across the fascinating quote in Unfinished Tales: Hunt for the Ring, that Sauron issued "threats that even filled the Morgul lord with dismay." This would imply:

1. G55's hilarious point in the thread that Sauron has anger management problems
2. That Sauron, since he held the 9 rings, and was in control of the Nine's fëar, he could inflict some kind of spiritual pain/torment upon them. Otherwise, I don't know what physical threat could have "dismayed" the Witch-King?

[Morthoron]

Originally Posted by Boromir88

Hey good to still see you around Morthoron. I know nothing about William Morris, so I can't add anything to that piece of information. I am familiar with the connection Tolkien makes between the Dead Marshes and Northern France. I believe in the letter he briefly writes the plot doesn't represent the World Wars, but perhaps the landscape did.

Which is the interpretation that made the most sense to me, because I think the descriptions of the landscape through the entire story are perhaps the most fascinating. The land has a "character" of its own, influenced by the people (or unknown things) who lived there. As Gandalf says to the Fellowship going through Hollin:

Then Legolas feels out of place, because it was a land inhabited by Celebrimbor and his followers. The Noldor had a better relationship with dwarves, so the land takes on the character of their inhabitants:

So, we have the land of Hollin holding on faintly to the memory of its Noldor inhabitants, but it is only in the stones.

Perhaps the Dead Marshes are actually trapped spirits of those killed in the battle from the 2nd Age. It's a topic I'm not at all familiar with besides some basic understanding. Could they be something like a "memory imprint" on the land? Similar to Hollin, where the memory of the Noldor still resides in the stones?

Hello Boro:

I think the issue with the Dead Marshes is that it's not merely the land retaining remnants and vague recollections of previous inhabitants, like Hollin, for instance.

Frodo was able to determine the fallen warriors' identities: "They lie in all the pools, pale faces, deep deep under the dark water. I saw them: grim faces and evil, and noble faces and sad. Many faces proud and fair, and weeds in their silver hair."

Yet he adds the further descriptor: "But all foul, all rotting, all dead. A fell light is in them."

So, something evil and seductive draws Frodo to the pools; however, there are clearly faces of dead Elves among the fallen looking up at him. And Frodo refers to them directly: "Many faces proud and fair, and weeds in their silver hair."

"Silver hair" would indicate Telerin, or more precisely Sindarin Elves. One would assume that the fëar of these Elves would have been called to the Halls of Mandos after they died in battle. I'm not sure how they would become dispossessed spirits enthralled by Sauron when these Elves died during the War of the Last Alliance, in which Sauron himself was defeated. The Dead Marshes came to claim the graves of the fallen warriors over time -- hundreds or thousands of years?

So, when did this "fell light" consume these fallen warriors and reveal their visages after so many centuries? Tolkien never explained.