The Dead and The Undead

[Galin]

Originally Posted by Huinesoron

[ . . . ] Coupled with Myths Transformed, 'Late Tolkien' is (partly) the era of demysticisation. Previously mysterious things had to have a logical explanation, even if the explanation made the story less powerful.

I wonder if anyone has taken an "in-depth" look at this matter. In my opinion, "very late Tolkien" accepts/includes the OFW* idea and the Tree-origins of the Sun and Moon, as long as they are presented in the legendarium as hailing from Mannish or Mixed tales and sources.

I have a very vague memory of Tom Shippey talking about Tolkien being arguably "too something" in his later years, but can't recall what it was!



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*Once Flat World

[Galadriel55]

This is a bit of an alternate storyline question, but it occurred to me that both the dead and undead often scare the living through means that may not be scary for themselves. What would happen if the Dead of Dunharrow were to face the Nazgul? If, for instance, Aragorn's timeline and Sauron's military plan were different and the dead army met a Nazgul on its way. Dead people aren't afraid of death. Would the Nazgul therefore have less power over them, unable to inflict the same dread as they do to the living? Or more power, if they can interact more directly in the "Unseen" world?

[A Little Green]

Originally Posted by Form

We don't know much (really, do we know anything?) about the worship of Sauron in Middle-earth beyond that he WAS worshipped, but I think that some comparative "religious studies" to what we know of the Melkor-worship he introduced in Númenor would, in fact, suggest that Sauron-worship in Middle-earth was heavily tied to Death and the fear of death, which, ironically, seems to have involved deaths and accelerated dying.

*raises hand* PhD researcher is sociology of religion here, do I count? I feel like, in general, there are two conversations to be had here; the conversation about cause (the mechanics and classification of different "types" of dead or undead) and the conversation about effect (the role the dead play in the story, what they do). I have very little to contribute to the first conversation, but I'll try to unpick something of the latter.

For me, all of these examples - the Dead Marshes, the Men of Dunharrow, the Barrow-Wights, and so on - are essentially making the same point, if in different ways. It has to do with what Boro so beautifully described here:

Originally Posted by Boro

I am familiar with the connection Tolkien makes between the Dead Marshes and Northern France. I believe in the letter he briefly writes the plot doesn't represent the World Wars, but perhaps the landscape did.

Which is the interpretation that made the most sense to me, because I think the descriptions of the landscape through the entire story are perhaps the most fascinating. The land has a "character" of its own, influenced by the people (or unknown things) who lived there.

What I always found so evocative about Tolkien's writing is a sense of the land having layers and layers of history that are not entirely over and done with. The scene in Hollin, and something like the Dead Marshes, may differ in terms of the internal logic of the fictional world (what the actual "mechanism" behind, or function of, the phenomenon is), but I'd argue that their effect is similar: both create this haunting sense of others having been there before, and left their imprint on the land. The sense I get from Middle Earth in general is of a place that retains remnants of past glory; the presence of the dead (or undead) from these more glorious days is a part of this theme. Additionally, all of these - and I'd include the Ringwraiths and even Gollum/Bilbo here, too - speak to a more general theme of death, fading and the passing of time that is integral to the story. In a way, they then complement story motifs like the elves going West, the gradual decline of Gondor, and so on.

Moreover, if we look at it through this kind of lens, the lack of a neat classification of the dead actually enhances their effect. I mean, imagine if the Barrow-Wights, the Men of Dunharrow, and the spirits in the Dead Marshes all appeared and functioned in the same way, and were instantly recognisable to the reader as essentially the same thing. I'd argue that they'd lose a great deal of the sense of mystery if there was an explicit logic to what they are and how they came to be there. Morthoron mentioned ghost stories, and I think that's relevant here, too. If a lot of these elements were influenced by folk tales of ghosts and spirits, then maybe they can be better understood as such, rather than phenomena to be conclusively explained?

[William Cloud Hicklin]

I myself am not convinced that there are "spirits" in the Dead Marshes, meaning some sort of sentience or even "life" albeit on a different plane. I think they are mere illusions, phantasms created by Sauron or simply as an effect of the evil miasma of the place.

[Formendacil]

Originally Posted by A Little Green

For me, all of these examples - the Dead Marshes, the Men of Dunharrow, the Barrow-Wights, and so on - are essentially making the same point, if in different ways.

....

What I always found so evocative about Tolkien's writing is a sense of the land having layers and layers of history that are not entirely over and done with. The scene in Hollin, and something like the Dead Marshes, may differ in terms of the internal logic of the fictional world (what the actual "mechanism" behind, or function of, the phenomenon is), but I'd argue that their effect is similar: both create this haunting sense of others having been there before, and left their imprint on the land. The sense I get from Middle Earth in general is of a place that retains remnants of past glory; the presence of the dead (or undead) from these more glorious days is a part of this theme. Additionally, all of these - and I'd include the Ringwraiths and even Gollum/Bilbo here, too - speak to a more general theme of death, fading and the passing of time that is integral to the story. In a way, they then complement story motifs like the elves going West, the gradual decline of Gondor, and so on.

Moreover, if we look at it through this kind of lens, the lack of a neat classification of the dead actually enhances their effect. I mean, imagine if the Barrow-Wights, the Men of Dunharrow, and the spirits in the Dead Marshes all appeared and functioned in the same way, and were instantly recognisable to the reader as essentially the same thing. I'd argue that they'd lose a great deal of the sense of mystery if there was an explicit logic to what they are and how they came to be there. Morthoron mentioned ghost stories, and I think that's relevant here, too. If a lot of these elements were influenced by folk tales of ghosts and spirits, then maybe they can be better understood as such, rather than phenomena to be conclusively explained?

This is an excellent post, such that I really don't have anything to do but adorn it with another related thought or two. Tolkien insisted, a few times, that if the The Lord of the Rings was "about" anything (the implication always being that that was too simplistic anyway), it was about death and the desire for deathlessness.

Therefore, I think you've hit the nail squarely on the head: these are all parts of the literary theme. Their importance isn't in their relations to each other, but in how they each affect mortals and their fear of death.

Mind you, that said, I think this does implicitly give us an answer: since the power of the Dead and Undead is each in relation to the fear of the Living, their "power" such as it is (and I think we can read Aragorn's death as a proof that fear of the dead is only real insofar as the Living cede it to them) is only over the Living: it's not as if the Nazgûl should fear death--if anything, being so stretched as they are (like Bilbo, only their pat of butter has been scraped over loaves and loaves of bread), they should welcome it: a release from torment and from Sauron. And what can the Nazgûl do to the Dead?

[Urwen]

There was a tidbit somewhere that basically says how Morgoth was capable of binding the dead souls of those who died in service to him and use them if he wished to do so.

(And the term 'service' is pretty loose in that regard...)