Minor Works -- 1 - Farmer Giles of Ham

[Legate of Amon Lanc]

Originally Posted by Thinlómien

Well, interesting that Esty should ask about parallels and Legate about the grey mare - because I was just thinking of the scene with the grey mare being the only one who did not flee from the dragon being a lighter precursor of the scene with Shadowfax and the Witch-King. I don't usually enjoy psychoanalyzing writers, but I do wonder if there was some great instance of equine bravery that Tolkien witnessed in the war that made a lasting impression on him.

Nice catch. I similarly wanted to point out that there is something weird about Tolkien and baggage ponies etc. In The Hobbit, you have the famous thing with first the Goblins stealing and eating the Dwarven baggage ponies in the Misty Mountains and later the dragon similarly scattering and eating the new ones. In a very similar manner that Chrysophylax scatters the baggage horses of the knights' company.

But why I am saying is that I believe that an unusually large - I daresay - proportion of the story is devoted to talking about the baggage horses/ponies (both here and in The Hobbit, and actually also in the Fellowship with Bill the Pony, who has the same function). I mean, nothing against them and they certainly serve an important function - especially realistically. But I would say that Tolkien probably treats them with a slightly above-average amount of attention.

Obviously, it is "common sense" that you need baggage ponies when you are travelling somewhere, but I daresay not every writer would be as aware of the problem. I wonder, therefore, alongside Lommy's remark, whether Tolkien simply had such an experience from the war (provisions transportation) that made him conscious of this issue, or whether he had perhaps even some closer knowledge of some particular bunch of ponies or whatnot.

So, I am putting this on the list of questions alongside what both myself, Pitchwife and Lommy wondered about here about whether Tolkien's family/friends/neighbours had a dog that Garm, Roverandom etc. were modelled after (and the loyal Huan???). There surely are some Tolkienologists who have answers to both of these questions.

[Estelyn Telcontar]

Well, Roverandom was based on one of JRRT's children's toy dog, that was lost at the beach. The dog's adventures were made up to comfort him and explain where the dog had gone. I'm not aware of a real dog who could have been a precursor.

I've been thinking about the wisdom of knowing when enough is enough - first Giles was smart enough to stop bargaining before he demanded too much for the dragon to bear. Then later he knew that it was time to let him go - aggravated of course by the cost of feeding him! I'm trying to remember if Tolkien wrote of a character whose downfall was greed? At any rate, Giles did not succumb to that particular sin.

[Legate of Amon Lanc]

Originally Posted by Estelyn Telcontar

Well, Roverandom was based on one of JRRT's children's toy dog, that was lost at the beach. The dog's adventures were made up to comfort him and explain where the dog had gone. I'm not aware of a real dog who could have been a precursor.

Yes, the toy dog is a known one, but I was exactly wondering about a live one: given how very specific Tolkien's dogs' behaviour is, and how Roverandom and Garm have very similar mannerisms (nearly identical), and as others have remarked here, it almost feels like there was a specific real-life dog "character" behind all this.

Originally Posted by Estelyn Telcontar

I've been thinking about the wisdom of knowing when enough is enough - first Giles was smart enough to stop bargaining before he demanded too much for the dragon to bear. Then later he knew that it was time to let him go - aggravated of course by the cost of feeding him! I'm trying to remember if Tolkien wrote of a character whose downfall was greed? At any rate, Giles did not succumb to that particular sin.

Well, how about everyone in The Hobbit, for starters? Meaning everyone involved in the Battle of the Five Armies - Thorin specifically, although he got his redemption, but it was a bit too late. But it is likely they would have been better prepared for the Goblin assault had they not been bickering among themselves (and nearly killed each others first).

One could however say that for example Bard is more on the Giles side (and Bilbo, to a degree), having set the line "enough is enough".

Mutatis mutandis, the same thing with Thingol and about half the people somehow involved with the Silmarils. The fall of Doriath being the most glaring example.

Otherwise, I am not sure if for example Lotho Sackville-Baggins might qualify? Probably it is a bit of a stretch, although we do not know what were the exact circumstances of his negotiating with Sharkey et al.

In any case, "greed as the cause of downfall" is certainly a theme that repeats itself throughout Tolkien's works, and the people who manage to resist are the main heroes, or the most positive characters of all. Giles, Bilbo - I'd also say that (even though other aspects are at play there too) the problem with the Ring qualifies too. Gandalf stresses how important it was that Bilbo gave it up willingly. If you disregard the whole Dark Lord connection for a moment, it would almost seem like "the way to break the spell of the Ring is to let go and stop being possessive of it". (For that matter, since I have already mentioned the Silmarils, it would probably apply to them as well.)

[William Cloud Hicklin]

Setting aside his "ROTC" stint with King Edward's Horse, Tolkien could hardly have been unaware of the ubiquitousness of horses and ponies, in and out of war! He grew up in an animal-powered world, and this persisted in Britain throughout his young adulthood (Britain did not automobilize nearly as quickly as the USA), and certainly in France he couldn't have ignored those of the half-million British Army horses there which he would have seen every day. And, yes, that meant seeing the poor beasts being killed.

As for "an example of equine courage" underlying the mare or Shadowfax- perhaps less likely. Tolkien would never have seen horses in combat,* and moreover cavalry's employment in battle is never, ever as "stalwart defense" (a horseman brought to a halt is a dead horseman).

*While cavalry was certainly used in WWI in its intended role in more open campaigns like Palestine, Mesopotamia and Russia, the 1914 Battle of the Frontiers quickly put an end to its use on the Western Front. Useless in trench warfare. The Germans transferred all of theirs to the east, or converted horse regiments to infantry, as did the British in many cases (my wife's great-uncle was killed with the 6th Dragoon Guards as a de facto infantryman). It is true that for the Somme the plan included a division of cavalry to exploit the breach in the German lines, but since no breach was made the cav remained in reserve, well back from the front)

[Estelyn Telcontar]

Thanks for the examples of greed and its consequences, Legate! I didn't take the time to think about it - Thorin (and to a lesser extent, the other Dwarves) is certainly the character closest to this story who exemplifies that.

[Rune Son of Bjarne]

Originally Posted by Legate of Amon Lanc

Nice catch. I similarly wanted to point out that there is something weird about Tolkien and baggage ponies etc. In The Hobbit, you have the famous thing with first the Goblins stealing and eating the Dwarven baggage ponies in the Misty Mountains and later the dragon similarly scattering and eating the new ones. In a very similar manner that Chrysophylax scatters the baggage horses of the knights' company.

But why I am saying is that I believe that an unusually large - I daresay - proportion of the story is devoted to talking about the baggage horses/ponies (both here and in The Hobbit, and actually also in the Fellowship with Bill the Pony, who has the same function). I mean, nothing against them and they certainly serve an important function - especially realistically. But I would say that Tolkien probably treats them with a slightly above-average amount of attention.

Obviously, it is "common sense" that you need baggage ponies when you are travelling somewhere, but I daresay not every writer would be as aware of the problem. I wonder, therefore, alongside Lommy's remark, whether Tolkien simply had such an experience from the war (provisions transportation) that made him conscious of this issue, or whether he had perhaps even some closer knowledge of some particular bunch of ponies or whatnot.

Not just Bill, we hear quite a lot about Merry's ponies from Buckland to Bree.

It never struck me as odd, or out of proportion though.

[Legate of Amon Lanc]

Originally Posted by Rune Son of Bjarne

Not just Bill, we hear quite a lot about Merry's ponies from Buckland to Bree.

It never struck me as odd, or out of proportion though.

Good point!

And it also never struck me as in any way remarkable on its own, but once I started thinking about it, if you just look at it quantitatively, the attention paid to ponies is remarkable.

[William Cloud Hicklin]

Well, Tolkien, like anyone born in 1892, would have spent his entire childhood and youthful ambulations avoiding stepping in road apples. The equine presence was kind of all-pervasive.