Name Changes?

[ArcusCalion]

I am not sure we should adopt the switch. We have extensive linguistic attestation for the development and process of producing Ambar, but none for Imbar. In the text itself, he still uses Ambar, and Imbar only appears here as far as I am aware. It may be a valid alternative to Ambar, but I do not see the need or the reason to change all Ambar to Imbar.

But if we only use it once as Fin said, it may be not much of an issue. However, there is more use of it in the Volume 3 texts.

[Arvegil145]

Shouldn't Sador be changed to Sadog, as per 'Of Dwarves and Men' (c. 1969) from The Peoples of Middle-earth, p. 309? (Also, shouldn't he be a Druadan according to the same text?)

Additionally, there is strong evidence that the characters of 'Magor' and 'Hador' should switch places, in that Hador becomes the grandfather of Magor, and not the other way around as it has been presented in most writings. This is largely because Tolkien wanted Hador to become the Lord of Dor-lomin earlier than in the published Silmarillion. This information comes from 'Of the Kindreds and Houses of the Edain' from the 'later Quenta' - namely, from some of the later revisions to it, found in The War of the Jewels, pp. 225-6.

Here is a quote from 'The House of Hador' genealogy commentary by CT:

In hasty pencillings on Hador table II the note saying that Magor and Hathol served no Elf-lord but dwelt near the sources of Teiglin, and that Hador was the first lord of Dor-lómin, was struck out; while at the same time Hador Lorindol first lord of Dorlómin was written above Magor (the Sword), and Magor Dagorlind the Sword singer in battle above Hador Lorindol. This reversal has been seen already in emendations made to the carbon copy only of the text of the chapter (pp. 225-6, §§16, 31-2 - where my father changed Glorindol, not to Lorindol, but to Glorindal). That this was not an ephemeral change is seen from the Athrabeth, where Adanel is the sister of Hador Lorindol, not of Magor.

This note, I believe, dates from c. 1959/1960.

[Findegil]

Hello Arvegil,

the change of Sador to Drûg we discussed once upon a time. In the end we deciseded that for us this planed change was unworkable. The argument was twofold: On the one hand we did not see how to integreate the background story why in th ehousehold of Húrin a Drûg would be found. And even more improtant we were sure that with the change to a Drûg the charachter backgriund would have changed. Sure enough a Drûg would be a good woodcarver, but would he have still maintained the krippling in youth by a missed blow of an axe? Probabaly not because being and Drûg already meant having a mis-shapened body in the eyes of the surounding comunity. And being so special meant that the Drûg that came with Hareth would probably always stay as house carls by her and her famaly and never go as carpenters into the woods. And would he survive into the service of Brodda? Dificult as we know that the Orks that terrorised the land after the incomming of the Easterlings hated the Drûg. And the Drûg were short lifed, so either Sadog might life up to Túrins return or he might have fought the Bagorlach.
In the end we had too many unanswered questions to work out that change. And in that vein I think we decisede against the name change {Sador}[Sadog] because we thought that it was connected to the charachter change.

{Hador Lorindol}[Magor Dagorlind the Swordsinger] & {Magor the Sword}[Hador Glorindal} is quiet a diffrent kettle of fish. I think what stayed our hand their was that Hador is named 3 times in LotR. But looking deeper into this, it does not prevent the change: He is named as one of 'the mighty elf-friends of old' as 'the Goldenhaired' and as the head and name giver of 'the Third House of the Edain'. But all that he can still be even if he switched the position in the genealogy with Magor.

It would switch Hador to the same generation as Haleth, which might be considered a pro argument since it means the Second and Third House are named at roughly the same time. But for sure Hador would keep his role to collect the House in Dor-Lomin and with that we would skip the settekemnt in the south of Ered Wethrin - not bad, since who later ever journey throught that region (Turin four times, Tour) never found any sign of that settelment.

Respectfuly
Findegil

[Arvegil145]

So, how about we change Hador with Magor already?

Lol, I know this forum generally has the speed of a 100 year old snail, but still - no post for almost a year?!

Are you folks ok? (says a guy who hasn't posted on the downs for 7 years...)


Also, Hiril, Beren's sister mentioned only once in a late Edain genealogy is 'canon' (lord, I hate that word )

[Arvegil145]

Speaking of genealogies - will they appear at some point in the finished work?

Because I'd gladly volunteer to make them: ALL of them - I love making family trees! Spent years meticulously, painstakingly getting them right, to the point of borderline obsession.

[Arvegil145]

Also, you should change Ingwion to Ingwil - according to 'The Nature of Middle-earth': the text that mentions the name 'Ingwil' is from c. 1959, while the one in 'The War of the Jewels' that mentions 'Ingwion' is from c. 1957/1958.

[Findegil]

Does it only look like that or do the others avoid this thread?

{Hador Lorindol}[Magor Dagorlind the Swordsinger] & {Magor the Sword}[Hador Glorindal} I already hasitating agreed to this change, but I would like some other opinions here as well.

{Ingwion}[Ingwil] Agreed, good catch.

About genealogies: We have a chapter for them in volume III. But so fare we (as a group) have only worked on the content list in that part. I do not know what ArcusCalion has done on them already.

But I would like to add a warning here: The project tries to eddit Tolkiens work not to perfectionat it. I have my self made genealogies spanning from the first generation of Men to Eldarion and his unnamed sistern, but since Tolkien never made anything alike that, they clearly do not fit here.

Respectfully
Findegil