Isildur

[Kuruharan]

Originally Posted by Mithadan

Isildur exemplifies a recurring theme in Tolkien's mythos. He is a hero that fails the last test.

Lending more weight to Aragorn's last words to Arwen.

So it seems, But let us not be overthrown at the final test, who of old renounced the Shadow and the Ring.

[William Cloud Hicklin]

I could look it up in Letters, if my copy was to hand, but Tolkien wrote (IIRC to Eileen Elgar) that NO one could destroy the ring at the Sammath Naur. It was beyond the strength of will of any, even a Gandalf. Frodo (and by extension Isildur) cannot be faulted for not doing the impossible.

[Inziladun]

Originally Posted by William Cloud Hicklin

I could look it up in Letters, if my copy was to hand, but Tolkien wrote (IIRC to Eileen Elgar) that NO one could destroy the ring at the Sammath Naur. It was beyond the strength of will of any, even a Gandalf. Frodo (and by extension Isildur) cannot be faulted for not doing the impossible.

It's in 246, which was the source of my earlier comment (though I also didn't have the book nearby).

I do not think that Frodo's was a moral failure. At the last moment the pressure of the Ring would reach its maximum--impossible, I should have said, for any one to resist, certainly after long possession, months of increasing torment, and when starved and exhausted.

Although Isildur's experience with the Ring was unquestionably brief when he had it in hand in Mordor, not a long struggle as with Frodo, we must recall that the temptation of the One increased with the innate power and pride of the wearer.
Gandalf recognized that when addressing Boromir's attempt to take the Ring from Frodo by force.

Despite Elrond's words in the Council about Isildur's "refusal" to destroy the Ring when he could, he says nothing about why he or Círdan didn't simply take it from Isildur. They were afraid to touch it themselves.

[Boromir88]

Originally Posted by Inziladun

]
Despite Elrond's words in the Council about Isildur's "refusal" to destroy the Ring when he could, he says nothing about why he or Círdan didn't simply take it from Isildur. They were afraid to touch it themselves.

I'm not sure I would classify Elrond and Cirdan's refusal to take it as they were themselves afraid to take it. According to Elrond, Isildur basically laid claim of it from the get go and would have it no other way:

"This I will have as weregild for my father, and my brother," he said; and therefor whether we would or no, he took it to treasure it. But soon he was betrayed by it to his death; and so it is named in the North Isildur's Bane. Yet death maybe was better than what else might have befallen him."~The Council of Elrond

(Bolding my emphasis)

Claiming it as weregild is also something that Tolkien might frown upon. Isildur makes a legal claim (claiming compensation and Sauron's most valuable possession for the death of his father and brother). However, it might not be seen as the moral thing to do, because Isildur is accepting payment for the death of his father and brother. He's essentially placing a value on their lives, and by accepting the payment (in gold mind you) Isildur's saying Sauron's debt is paid.

It's like Denethor using the palantir, Tolkien writes that legally Denethor (by being in a position to rule Gondor until the King returns) could use the stone. And that "legal" authority to use the stone did grant some protection from Sauron, but I imagine Tolkien would still say it wasn't the "right" thing to do.

[Inziladun]

Originally Posted by Boromir88

I'm not sure I would classify Elrond and Cirdan's refusal to take it as they were themselves afraid to take it. According to Elrond, Isildur basically laid claim of it from the get go and would have it no other way

Yet, given the stakes, why not take it from him by force? The needs of the one (pun intended) do not outweigh the needs of the many.

[Galadriel55]

Originally Posted by Inziladun

Yet, given the stakes, why not take it from him by force? The needs of the one (pun intended) do not outweigh the needs of the many.

First of all -

https://pasteboard.co/u7em8VhAKm2m.jpg

Because while I am sure images of Schwarzenegger Gollum have appeared somewhere, I am not sure that Spock Isildur Terminator did.


In an alternate universe:

- Is it dead?
- Terminated.
- Will this melt in there?
- Yes. Throw it in.
- Adios!
- And the chip.

...

- I have come. But I do not choose now to do what I came to do. I will not do this deed. The chip is mine!

And that is how young Mr. Connor came to be the secret Lord of Skynet.


~~~


On a more serious topic now. Regardless of what Elrond and Cirdan's actual motivations were in the moment, whether it was wisdom or fear or ignorance which drove the decision, I think it is a good thing that neither tried to physically force Isildur to give up the Ring - or destroyed the Ring together with Isildur. That scenario would have been the exact picture that Sauron would relish seeing. One possibility goes thus: a selfless intention, for the greater good, logical, bound to work... because you are clearly the more wise and foresighted of this lot... and you can prevent the Doom of Arda or whatnot... at the price of your friend and ally... and any who disagree with your choice... but they are short-sighted emotional idealists, not everyone can be as wise and rational as you... And so ally turns on ally, friend turns on friend, blood gets spilled, someone defends someone else but no one agrees on what is right, the wrong people get killed, a civil war breaks loose, the Ring somehow escapes and rolls over to the Winchester to have a pint and wait for all this to blow over. And how about the other alternative, if the Ring gets pushed into the Cracks with or without Isildur from the first try? Everything goes smoothly and successfully, Elrond and Cirdan manage not to kill each other accidentally in the process, the Ring gets melted. It would be starting a new Age with coercion and force, and the idea that the end justifies the means - sort of resembles Feanor, don't you think? - sets a sour precedent, and creates perfect chance for the wheel of history to repeat itself. And the entirety of Tolkien's universe, its foundation and message, all start falling apart at the idea that such a deed could be considered a good moral start for the new Age. It would be killing the body because you failed to save the soul. It cannot be judged a good thing to do in the ideal sense. Moreover, even in the absence of the Ring, it is perpetuating the Ring's - Sauron's - Morgoth's - corruption, and therefore Sauron might not live on but his deeds would be thriving. And, I think, in a world that is more full of pathetic fallacy and prophecy than it is of cynicism, such a start to an Age would not justify itself for very long.

[Inziladun]

Originally Posted by Galadriel55

Regardless of what Elrond and Cirdan's actual motivations were in the moment, whether it was wisdom or fear or ignorance which drove the decision, I think it is a good thing that neither tried to physically force Isildur to give up the Ring - or destroyed the Ring together with Isildur

Oh, I don't think that's what Elrond and Círdan should have done. I was just wondering about the possible thought processes going on at that critical moment.

I got a bit off-track there anyway.
What I was trying to get across was that Isilder's claiming the Ring for his own was not a moral weakness. It started to work on him immediately.

I seriously doubt Isildur thought of the One Ring as a "weregild" in any real sense: he simply was justifying his possession of it, just as Gollum long after seized upon the idea of the Ring as his "birthday present".

Gandalf says that Bilbo was the only one who ever gave up the Ring of his own accord, and even that was a very close thing.
The greater one is, the more easily the Ring takes hold. With the knowledge that three hobbits were Ring-bearers, and two-thirds could not summon the will the give it up, I cannot blame the King of Arnor and Gondor for being unable to resist it.

[Huinesoron]

Originally Posted by William Cloud Hicklin

I could look it up in Letters, if my copy was to hand, but Tolkien wrote (IIRC to Eileen Elgar) that NO one could destroy the ring at the Sammath Naur. It was beyond the strength of will of any, even a Gandalf. Frodo (and by extension Isildur) cannot be faulted for not doing the impossible.

This isn't Isildur's weakness, though. His weakness comes before and after his failure to destroy the Ring.

Before:

Originally Posted by FotR: The Council of Elrond

...and Isildur cut the Ring from his hand with the hilt-shard of his father's sword, and took it for his own.'

[...]

Isildur took it, as should not have been.

Why did he take it? Why did he pick it up? Elrond is convinced Isildur intended to claim the Ring even before he cut it from Sauron's (seemingly-dead?) hand; he had no thought of destroying it even before he took it. He looked at this weapon of the Enemy, which had brought nothing but woe and destruction on the world for two thousand years - and went "yes, I want that power for my own". That's the Numenorean weakness in a nutshell, and Isildur fell prey to it.

After:

It's been a long time since I've reread the Disaster of the Gladden Fields, and I'd forgotten exactly how weak Isildur is during it.

Originally Posted by UT: The Disaster of the Gladden Fields

"And we bear burdens of worth beyond all reckoning," said Elendur; for he was in his father's confidence.

The Orcs were now drawing near. Isildur turned to his esquire: "Ohtar," he said, "I give this now into your keeping;" and he delivered to him the great sheath and the shards of Narsil, Elendil's sword. "Save it from capture by all means that you can find, and at all costs; even at the cost of being held a coward who deserted me.

1) Knowing that he won't escape the trap he's fallen into, Isildur sends one of his "burdens of worth beyond all reckoning" off with his squire, telling him to protect it at all costs. But he doesn't even consider sending the Ring with him as well, though he knows full well what Elendur is actually referring to.

Originally Posted by UT: The Disaster of the Gladden Fields

"Alas, it is not, senya. I cannot use it. I dread the pain of touching it. And I have not yet found the strength to bend it to my will. It needs one greater than I now know myself to be. My pride has fallen. It should go to the Keepers of the Three."

2) Having kept the Ring, Isildur refuses to even attempt using it - because it would hurt to touch. He doesn't say 'I have not yet found the strength, but I will attempt it in this final plight' - just says 'no, it hurts too much'.

Originally Posted by UT: The Disaster of the Gladden Fields

"My King," said Elendur, "Ciryon is dead and Aratan is dying. Your last counsellor must advise nay command you, as you commanded Ohtar. Go! Take your burden, and at all costs bring it to the Keepers: even at the cost of abandoning your men and me!"

"King's son," said Isildur, "I knew that I must do so; but I feared the pain. Nor could I go without your leave. Forgive me, and my pride that has brought you to this doom." Elendur kissed him. "Go! Go now!" he said.

3) Having just admitted that he is prideful and unworthy, Isildur abandons his men. His father died facing Sauron hand-to-hand to protect his people; Isildur leaves his people (his eldest son!) to protect him. He could have given the Ring to Elendur, sending his heir away with the great burden and sacrificing himself to do so; instead he sacrificed his son to flee.

Originally Posted by UT: The Disaster of the Gladden Fields

Isildur turned west, and drawing up the Ring that hung in a wallet from a fine chain about his neck, he set it upon his finger with a cry of pain, and was never seen again by any eye upon Middle-earth.

4) Having refused to attempt to use the Ring to save his men because it would hurt too much, Isildur is perfectly happy to accept that same pain when it lets him run away. Even once he has it on his finger, and "Men and Orcs gave way in fear", he makes no effort to turn it to the defence of his son and his men; he just flees.

In his final hours, Isildur shows two kinds of weakness. He refuses to even consider passing the Ring to another, even to preserve it from the Enemy or to save his son (who, incidentally, is lauded by the text in stronger terms than almost any of Tolkien's heroes); note that Bilbo passed this same test under no more pressure than Gandalf threatening to unfriend him. But he also shows himself as weak even by his own standards: he took the weapon of the Enemy, but in dire straits refused to use it - not because he feared it would turn to evil, but because he was too scared of the pain and too afraid for his life.

EDIT: Oh, and a third weakness: he lost hope.

Originally Posted by UT: The Disaster of the Gladden Fields

The tale mentions a young man who survived the slaughter: he was Elendur's esquire, named Estelmo, and was one of the last to fall, but was stunned by a club, and not slain, and was found alive under Elendur's body. He heard the words of Isildur and Elendur at their parting. There were rescuers who came on the scene too late, but in time to disturb the Orcs and prevent their mutilation of the bodies

Does anyone imagine the Orcs wouldn't have gone straight to mutilating the bodies? The rescuers (Woodsmen) must have come very shortly after the battle - and if Isildur had remained with his men, wearing the Elendilmir and wielding his great sword and authority, I think it very likely that they would still have been alive when the Woodsmen arrived to relieve them.

As the name of Elendur's esquire hints, what Isildur lost in his weakness was estel - that faith that the Powers of the world, whether in the West or Beyond, would give the heir of Elendil aid when he most needed it. They did - in the same "by good chance" sense that Tolkien employs repeatedly throughout LotR - but by that time Isildur had already given in, abandoned his duty, and fled "like a stag from the hounds".

(And yes, still: fascinatingly weak.)

hS

[William Cloud Hicklin]

In his final hours, Isildur shows two kinds of weakness. He refuses to even consider passing the Ring to another, even to preserve it from the Enemy or to save his son

Consider however the observation made at the Ford of Bruinen: as soon as Frodo with the Ring took off, his companions were safe; the pursuers' target was the Ringbearer, no-one else. And although common orcs would hot have had the Nazguls' finely-tuned Ringdar, nonetheless T tells us in DGF that the attack occurred, and was as fierce as it was, because the Ring exerted some sort of pull on them, even though they did not recognize what it was. In other words, the best way for Isildur to have saved his men's lives was to leave them.

As for giving Narsil to his squire: if Isildur was contemplating E&E, he wasn't going to be lugging four feet of broken sword with him.

[Huinesoron]

Originally Posted by William Cloud Hicklin

. In other words, the best way for Isildur to have saved his men's lives was to leave them.

That isn't what he did, though. He ran for his life and left them in contact with the enemy, knowing their leader had abandoned them (and, per the specific statement that his son knew about the Ring, mostly they /didn't / know why he left).

Nor did the Orcs follow him - from DGF we know that he completely evaded pursuit, and was eventually just killed by random guards who were spooked by his sudden appearance.

hS