Tragic flaw of the Hurin family

[Inziladun]

Originally Posted by William Cloud Hicklin

What I was saying, though, was not simply that Morgoth won in a battlefield sense, but that he succeeded in perverting one of the greatest of Men: ruining Hurin, turning him into an agent of evil, was a far greater victory than merely killing him. The goal of the Devil after all is not our death but our damnation.

The last sentence is undoubtedly true.

But how "perverted" did Húrin become?
I see it as analogous to the difference between the much later falls of Saruman and Denethor.

Saruman actively aided Sauron, whether as a true ally, or for his own evil ends.
Denethor never stopped opposing Sauron, but the latter's superior will overcame Denethor's resistance, and convinced him the West could not win.

Húrin did not become an ally of Morgoth, nor did he willingly help him in any way. At the time of his release, he was simply a broken man, physically and spiritually, who had seen the loss of everything he loved, and had stopped caring.

In that sense, Sauron was much more a victim of Morgoth than Húrin ever was.

[Mithadan]

What happened to Denethor mirrored what happened to Hurin in a small way. Denethor was a small piece of Sauron's game. He saw what Sauron showed him and was deceived. But it appears that the attention Sauron gave to Denethor, apparently limited to when the Palantir was used, was nothing compared to Morgoth's focus upon Hurin. Denethor was tricked, what he was shown drove him into a deep depression and caused him to lose his mind.

Morgoth did not undertake to influence or even kill Hurin, he chose to destroy him and his family. Hurin and his family were not merely shown images, whether false, exaggerated or subject to misinterpretation. They were the focal points of Morgoth's malice and influence, which, as I suggest above, was inexorable and beyond their ability to resist. At the end, Hurin was physically and emotionally a broken man, but he was not "perverted" as perhaps Saruman was. He did not, at least not intentionally, betray his old friends and allies. He did slay Mim (at least in some versions), which may have been wrongful though deserved. He was undeservedly scornful towards Thingol, at least until he was, to some extent, relieved from Morgoth's sway by Melian. But his disclosure of Gondolin's general location was not a knowing betrayal. Ultimately, his will was not broken.

[William Cloud Hicklin]

I think what I had most of all in mind was The Wanderings of Hurin (HME XI), where the bitter old man manipulates the folk of Haleth into destroying themselves, in revenge for the deaths of his family (at, as he saw it through Morgoth's eyes, their hands). His motivation at first seems to be mere unbending pride, like Denethor, but it becomes increasingly apparent as the story goes on that he is driven by vengeance and hate, his soul in thrall to Morgoth even as his will rejected him.

[Galadriel55]

While making a post on the Finduilas vs Doom thread, a certain thought occurred to me which I think is better fitted for this thread - without necessarily cracking the cycle of internal vs external workings of the Curse. I thought - even Turin's good deeds like sparing Mim (and not just good-intentioned but poorly-chosen ones), turn to bite him at some later time. And then I thought - there is just an awful lot of bad luck for all people who go near him, even those only tangentially involved. I always had a soft spot for Hunthor - we don't know much of him, but he seems to be a fairly neutral party in the story until he volunteers to go with Turin to fight Glaurung. He steps up to Brandir's defense, and seems very fair and rational-minded, and is clearly brave and responsible and dependable and a bunch of other good qualities. He goes with Turin, and dies because of a stupid rock. Is that a surprise? Not really - they went on a dangerous mission where they could have all died a dozen times. But it's like - if someone good can stand by Turin's side uncorrupted by arrogance or greed or cruelty or any other vice, and exerts a good influence on Turin, and cannot be used to further his doom through these vices - then they have to be removed with an "accident" (quotation marks deliberate). Beleg. Hunthor. I am not sure if Gwindor truly counts, that love triangle is a bit too complicated to tackle. I was unfortunately interrupted while writing this and forgot my bright idea and where I was going with this in relation to the Curse. But one does wonder - how much is accident, and how much is "accident", and if the latter, by what means is it brought about. There is nothing - nothing - that the man touched which did not break. It's just a bit too much bad luck to be discounted as your average badluckiness.

Actually, no - there is one group of people that were involved with the family and with Turin directly which did not end horrifically: Mablung and his company. What happened in Doriath is questionable, being under the shield of Melian's Girdle, but Mablung interacts with both Turin and Morwen and Nienor outside of Doriath too and somehow survives without witnessing his life crumbling around him. Is that somehow significant?

I'm sorry, I'm rambling. This started off as a thought but I soon forgot where I was going with it, and now it's just unraveled into snippets of component thoughtlings.

[Mithadan]

Yes, a very good point Galadriel55. The bad luck that seemed to stalk Turin and his family does seem to affect those around them. The examples you offer, Beleg, Hunthor, Mim and especially Gwindor, are just the top of a long list.

The wording of Morgoth's curse is relevant here. There is a marked difference between what appears in the Silmarillion and what is said in the Children of Hurin (and, unfortunately, I cannot put my hands on Unfinished Tales right now). The Silmarillion barely summarizes the curse, stating that "Morgoth cursed Hurin and Morwen and their offspring, and set a doom upon them of darkness and sorrow..." This, on its face, might not extend past the family itself. In contrast, Children of Hurin sets out an extended dialogue between Hurin and Morgoth. In relevant part, Morgoth is quoted as follows:

"But upon all whom you love my thought shall weigh as a cloud of Doom, and it shall bring them down into darkness and despair. Wherever they go, evil shall arise. Whenever they speak, their words shall bring ill counsel. Whatsoever they do shall turn against them. They shall die without hope, cursing both life and death."

Maybe this explains why Turin and his family seemed to shed ill-fate like a duck sheds water?