The Perils of Pedantry

[Thinlómien]

I think you're onto something there. My general attitude towards life, to be fair, seems to be that being too pedantic about anything just makes things less enjoyable. If you stop having so specific expectations and caring about whether things go exactly the way you imagined or not - well, things are so much less stressful and so much more fun. But I guess to a degree this is a personality trait/ question of temperament which one has limited control over.

It is an interesting question though, why pedantry seems to strike me (and many other people) specifically when it's about adaptations of literary works we love. Is it what we care about the most? Both a lovely and an alarming thought. I think it is certainly partly because artistic choices are so much more than just pure artistic choices - they also reflect our values and what's important to us.

Am I being too pedantic, for example, in my criticism of Galadriel's portrayal in The Rings of Power? Someone might think so, but I'm not just upset it's not how I imagined it or how Tolkien describes it. I'm upset because when I see Galadriel being portrayed as a pretty young woman among middle-aged men while those middle-aged men should be much younger than her (they are her cousins' children after all), I see another instance of the predominant (Anglo-)American media being obsessed with female leads being young and attractive while male leads are allowed to be older and/or uglier and it irritates me as a woman, a feminist, and well, as a person who has eyes and sees there are women of all ages and appearances out there.

But am I being too pedantic when I criticise the show's portrayal of ?Finrod? Probably; the main source of my irritation there seems to be simply that I always loved Finrod in The Silmarillion and thought his death scene was one of the coolest things Tolkien wrote, and therefore to see him look and act differently than the character I imagined while reading and the change of his death scene were disappointing to me. If I let go of my pedantic fixation on the epic Finrod Felagund in my head, I can not care about the show version and be much happier. Also, as a criticism of an adaptation, I don't think simply "this is different" or "this is not like my personal mental image" is worthless - "this artistic choice sends a message that contradicts the original theme/idea/subject of the work" is a much better (and more interesting) criticism.

Of course, sometimes nitpicking about things is just fun bonding with your fellow geeks, and a bit of an ego boost too (don't we all know Tolkien's works so much better than these silly writers? ) And it's a very natural urge. I'm certainly the same person who at 12 or 13 went to see The Two Towers in the cinema and launched on a rant about how Aragorn's horse is the wrong colour (not to mention it has a different name and backstory ). I think we should keep that all in mind just as long as we keep in mind the flip side - that complaining about the horse colours to your friends sitting on the same couch is already different from posting the same thoughts as "critique" online for everyone to see, not to mention directly contacting/harassing the creators about it. (I absolutely hate the current culture of tweeting at writers/directors/actors with all kinds of impolite and irrelevant junk, but that's an entirely different can of worms already.)

I guess what I'm trying to say is - the nitpicking can be fun in like-minded company, but one should make a difference in their head between it and actual thoughtful criticism of an adaptation, especially when posting their thoughts online. And accepting your own dislikes and disappointments as subjective and minor in the grand scale of human existence does wonders to your mental health.

[Formendacil]

Originally Posted by Thinlómien

It is an interesting question though, why pedantry seems to strike me (and many other people) specifically when it's about adaptations of literary works we love. Is it what we care about the most? Both a lovely and an alarming thought. I think it is certainly partly because artistic choices are so much more than just pure artistic choices - they also reflect our values and what's important to us.

You know, now I wonder about this... I think there's something unique about books and about adapting them, but I also think there's something about Tolkien specifically that brings it out more than any other author. I think that the Harry Potter movies are an instructive case: also fantasy, also in the English language, also with a massively popular series of blockbusters in the 2000s--but I don't feel like that fandom ever had the same core of nitpicking curmudgeons that Middle-earth has had.

Is this because there were middle-aged (or older) Tolkien fans who had survived the scorn of earlier, less nerd-friendly decades and those battle scars are manifesting now? Is it because the Tolkienian text just didn't translate to the screen as well (i.e. harder to adapt)? Is it that Tolkien draws in far more fans who like to be pedantic? Is it just over-determined?

I don't think Austen fans get as mad about details.

EDIT: Oh, and I've already had another thought: how much of the more sour part of the Tolkien fandom is culture war-related? At least on the western side of the Atlantic, it seems sometimes as though EVERYTHING has to be divided up into "our" side and "theirs." I remember being somewhat uneasy in my earliest 'Downsian years at the way some kinds of Christians wanted to make the LotR into a quasi-Biblical text. Is this partly a result of that--or analogous to it: is it simply that Tolkien has become yet another plaything in Great Tug o'War and the more acerbic nature of the pedantry that I'm complaining of is because the pedantry is actually a way to prove that the "REAL" LotR is on "MY" side of the war, and anything that makes me think it's becoming appropriated by the other side must be wholly discredited?

On that note, I think Mithadan's point re: how something like this would have been taken in the 1980s is an excellent point.

[Pitchwife]

Originally Posted by Boromir88

I'm more of a casual Star Trek fan, I watch the TV shows and movies (that is I'm not on any Star Trek forums nor do I visit any of their websites) but I thought his quote was interesting. I like to think now I have a "Nimoy approach" when I'm reading Tolkien. I think about "where is Tolkien trying to take me now?" For example, today, I always thought it was just Sauron vs. Gil-galad and Elendil. Pitch disagreed and I can see where he's coming to that conclusion. So which one of us is right? For myself, it doesn't really matter anymore. We both made our points and it's nice to look at something differently, even if I might disagree.

You know, in that little debate I was just flexing long-unused muscles for auld lang syne. My interior version of this scene has for yeni unotime been that it was Isildur who finished Sauron off (by cutting off the Ring) after the two kings fell, and I think I could find a quote that says so if I could be bothered, but I'm not married to that version. I don't really care whether Elrond was a combatant in that war or not. What I do care about was the larger debate in which the question came up, and which was largely about the question of female characters non-conforming to traditional gender roles; but that is ultimately a question of personal beliefs and can probably not be settled with any amount of Tolkien-quotes.

Originally Posted by Thinlómien

Am I being too pedantic, for example, in my criticism of Galadriel's portrayal in The Rings of Power? Someone might think so, but I'm not just upset it's not how I imagined it or how Tolkien describes it. I'm upset because when I see Galadriel being portrayed as a pretty young woman among middle-aged men while those middle-aged men should be much younger than her (they are her cousins' children after all), I see another instance of the predominant (Anglo-)American media being obsessed with female leads being young and attractive while male leads are allowed to be older and/or uglier and it irritates me as a woman, a feminist, and well, as a person who has eyes and sees there are women of all ages and appearances out there.

Not pedantic at all, and this is actually the best criticism of RoP's Galadriel I've seen so far. (Over in Bêthberry's thread I said she reminded me of Korra - with Gil-galad as Tenzin? I mean, the colour palette fits...)

Originally Posted by Thinlómien

Of course, sometimes nitpicking about things is just fun bonding with your fellow geeks, and a bit of an ego boost too (don't we all know Tolkien's works so much better than these silly writers?

That's largely why I'm here posting now. I've been keeping an eye on that other thread from time to time, and TBH the amount of bile and vitriol unleashed there by some of our holy grail-keepers has been quite off-putting. That's not the kind of discussion we used to have in the good ole days, and it's no fun. It was only when I saw people like you, Formy, Legate and Agan posting about the show on Facebook and Bb opening her thread here that I actually felt it would be fun to come and talk to you about the show, like in the good ole days.

Originally Posted by Mithadan

As an older fan, I can say this. If Rings of Power had come out in the 1980s (ignoring the lack of cinematic technology available then), I would have been overjoyed at the opportunity to watch a fantasy show of even moderate quality "based upon" Middle Earth.

Me too! The Bakshi movie scratched that itch for me, and I'll defend its virtues with my dying breath, viking Boromir and pantless Aragorn notwithstanding.

[Legate of Amon Lanc]

Originally Posted by Formendacil

You know, now I wonder about this... I think there's something unique about books and about adapting them, but I also think there's something about Tolkien specifically that brings it out more than any other author. I think that the Harry Potter movies are an instructive case: also fantasy, also in the English language, also with a massively popular series of blockbusters in the 2000s--but I don't feel like that fandom ever had the same core of nitpicking curmudgeons that Middle-earth has had.

I don't know and I wouldn't be so hasty. Caustic LotR community is certainly more visible. However, I don't know about you but at least I have not been a part of any Harry Potter community, so I can't tell, however I can imagine something similar happening there to a degree. It only depends how much. I assume LotR community is obviously bigger, so that would influence also the absolute amount of caustic fans present. But I have no data to say whether the LotR community is simply 350% bigger and therefore 350% more caustic, or whether it is actually 350% bigger but in fact 500% more caustic.

Originally Posted by Form

I don't think Austen fans get as mad about details.

I don't know, I also wouldn't make such statements before checking some Austen forum... I can imagine someone being "in this adaptation, Elizabeth has wrong hairstyle!!!" or even "it CLEARLY states: 'the shadow of his coat spread from wall to wall like vast wings', OF COURSE Mr. Darcy had coattails!!!"

Originally Posted by Form

EDIT: Oh, and I've already had another thought: how much of the more sour part of the Tolkien fandom is culture war-related? At least on the western side of the Atlantic, it seems sometimes as though EVERYTHING has to be divided up into "our" side and "theirs." I remember being somewhat uneasy in my earliest 'Downsian years at the way some kinds of Christians wanted to make the LotR into a quasi-Biblical text. Is this partly a result of that--or analogous to it: is it simply that Tolkien has become yet another plaything in Great Tug o'War and the more acerbic nature of the pedantry that I'm complaining of is because the pedantry is actually a way to prove that the "REAL" LotR is on "MY" side of the war, and anything that makes me think it's becoming appropriated by the other side must be wholly discredited?

The latter may be very spot on, I think. I am also not sure how common it is, but I think - and this can be generalised, to anything from LotR to Star Wars but also to a debate about the Bible or about grocery selection, I think - often people tend to make "proxy wars" in this sense (in the same sense that e.g. the two major Cold War powers used e.g. Vietnam as proxy battlefield without having to actually meet head-on).

And I just wonder whether it is conscious or unconscious - I think it often may be even the latter: that one is presenting, even to themselves, "I am arguing here about whether Aragorn was right to claim the throne of Gondor, but what I in fact mean is to prove whether my homeland of Austro-Hungary should have the right to own Poland", or "I am presenting arguments whether Beren and Lúthien were right to marry according to Elvish law as witnessed by HoME vol. III §22" while I am in fact arguing whether it is right to marry without your parents' permission, because that is what I have mentally equated these with.

The way out is to realise that I am falling into this trap, that what I am arguing for here is in fact a defense-mechanism of my self-constructed "tribal identity". But in the context of this forum and all similar discussions, we are, first of all, travellers in Middle-Earth. We should remember that.

And another trap - against which LotR itself is a warning - is the desire to own, and to control (in this case: to own and control Middle-Earth), as opposed to just watch and enjoy the beauty. That is, I believe, also what we should constantly ask ourselves about when replying here or there.

[Formendacil]

Originally Posted by Legate of Amon Lanc

I don't know and I wouldn't be so hasty. Caustic LotR community is certainly more visible. However, I don't know about you but at least I have not been a part of any Harry Potter community, so I can't tell, however I can imagine something similar happening there to a degree. It only depends how much. I assume LotR community is obviously bigger, so that would influence also the absolute amount of caustic fans present. But I have no data to say whether the LotR community is simply 350% bigger and therefore 350% more caustic, or whether it is actually 350% bigger but in fact 500% more caustic.

Originally Posted by Legate of Amon Lanc

I don't know, I also wouldn't make such statements before checking some Austen forum... I can imagine someone being "in this adaptation, Elizabeth has wrong hairstyle!!!" or even "it CLEARLY states: 'the shadow of his coat spread from wall to wall like vast wings', OF COURSE Mr. Darcy had coattails!!!"

These are fair points--I am very much writing from WITHIN the Tolkien fandom, so even where I may at times being a more pan-fandom environment (LiveJournal 15 years ago, Tumblr now), I more attuned to mentions of Tolkien than I would be to, say, Rowling or Austen.

That said... I don't actually think I'm overstepping the bounds of the probable: there is something about the Tolkien fan experience that rewards detail-oriented fans more than most fandoms and this creates a higher rate of pedantry--it's more baked in.

I don't think it's UNIQUE to Tolkien, but the best analogies for "rewards detail-oriented fans" are otherwise going to be the giant, corporation-made fandoms like Star Wars or Marvel. But while there's certainly acrimonious fans in fandoms like that, and while they certainly do have their grumpy pedants, the fact that the acrimony can be pointed towards a particular corporate scapegoat changes the dynamic: Tolkien fans are quite unlikely to direct ire at Tolkien himself and insofar as any adaptation may be wrong (howsoever they perceive it to be wrong), the easiest thing to do to discredit it is to APPEAL to Tolkien.

I actually think there is some of this with Star Wars fans, because George Lucas can be seen as the author--the problem is that his work has never been perceived as a unity in the same way as Tolkien's (I'm thinking of the big split between the original movies and the prequels), and his work was always the product of many minds and hands, no matter how involved he was.

Originally Posted by Legate of Amon Lanc

And another trap - against which LotR itself is a warning - is the desire to own, and to control (in this case: to own and control Middle-Earth), as opposed to just watch and enjoy the beauty. That is, I believe, also what we should constantly ask ourselves about when replying here or there.

"The [fans] delved too deep [into the footnotes of The Nature of Middle-earth."

[Lalwendë]

Janeites most certainly do get into a rage if one of the books is improperly adapted. Maybe not over hair colour as this wasn't often described, but the recent Netflix version of Persuasion had lots of criticism. The Fleabag-esque breaking of the third wall was not popular, nor were the scenes of public affection. Captain Wentworth was also seen as too young. The race of the actors, however, was not a problem.

Being a pedant really isn't limited to 'nerdy' things like Tolkien or Doctor Who. My dad refused to watch any more of Pearl Harbor after a line where the star Ben Affleck claims the Americans were instrumental in the initial Battle of Britain. We have football facts nerds, grown men who argue about the motorway network, and Alfie will correct you immediately if you mis-pronounce the name of any Pokémon.

It's a badge of honour to correct another fan. Absolutely right though, while you or I might get a kick out of it, especially arguing with someone objectionable (I enjoyed correcting Darren Grimes no end on twitter), if you're trying to be welcoming to newer fans, it's not good. Formendacil is right - there's no joy in it. It's not a shiny badge, to me it feels a bit spoiled afterwards?