Beren in Dagor Dagorath

[Huinesoron]

Originally Posted by Galin

But do we have to assume that part of her prophecy is false?

I mean... no? But if Turin actually returned for the War of Wrath, the total absence of this concept anywhere else in the Legendarium, the contradiction with the statements that Beren was the only mortal to return from death, and the fact that he would have waited in the Halls of Mandos for 50+ years rather than moving on, all make it difficult to accept at face value. It also takes a mythic Returning Hero and turns him into a historically-verifiable event: Bilbo could ask Elrond about it and be told, "Oh yeah, Turin came back for a bit; I chatted with him, he was intense." It just doesn't feel like it fits.

Originally Posted by Galin

I'm not sure I understand what it is you find problematic here. Does this connect with issue 1? Sorry If I'm being dim here.

Sorry, I think I got tangled up in my own thoughts. Tolkien wrote "unless the prophecy of Andreth the Wise-woman should prove true". As the author, he obviously knows whether the prophecy is true or not; that says to me that this statement is an in-universe one, like so many of his notes and jottings. If it's in-universe, when was it written?

Well, "The Problem of Ros" mentions Numenor. That means the document as a whole must post-date the War of Wrath, and so any prophecy relating to it would have to be in the past tense ("unless the prophecy of Andreth was true, and Turin in the War of Wrath returned, and slew Ancalagon"). They would also know whether it happened.

Even if the "Turin" footnote is held to be earlier than other parts of the document - when earlier? It relays details of what Earendil said to Manwe, which means someone must have passed on to the recorder; that means it has to have been written between the arrival of the Armies of Valinor and the death of Ancalagon. I just have a hard time believing a continent-destroying war is a good time to jot down notes on what that Elros bloke's name means, oh and btw watch out for a grumpy guy with an evil sword, he's got an appointment with a dragon and you do NOT wanna get in his way.

Could Andreth have prophesies about the War of Wrath? Sure. Finrod in her presence speaks prophetically of both the Bragollach and Arda Renewed, so we know that both timeframes were available to foresight. But I don't think this source text can be held up as supporting such a prophecy.

hS