The case for Dorwinion being an Elvish realm (+ speculation about Bladorthin)

[Mithadan]

Arvegil145, an interesting post. You have caused me to do two things; (1) I spent time on a Saturday trying to remember where I had seen a reference to Dorwinion; and (2) I again bemoan the fact that I do not have a copy of PE 17 (any suggestions on where I might find a copy?).

The name Bladorthin appears only in the Hobbit. We know little about him. He was a king. He ordered expensive spears from Erebor and they were never delivered. He died. Because Erebor was a Third Age kingdom, it can be assumed that Bladorthin lived during that time. Whether he was an Elf or a Man (apparent etymology of his name aside) is unknown, as is the location and name of his kingdom. We can speculate about his history, but, so far as I know, there is no basis to confirm any theory.

In works published during JRRT's lifetime, Dorwinion appears only in The Hobbit, and is briefly mentioned a a place having vineyards and producing superior wine. Fonstad's Atlas places it near the Sea of Rhun, not unlike what is mentioned in PE 17. The Atlas was published several years after Tolkien passed away, and Fonstad's source for this location is unclear.

However, Dorwinion is mentioned in HoME 5 (thank you, HoME 13, I knew I saw this reference somewhere). In the concluding paragraph of the Quenta Silmarillion (c. 1938), the "meads" of Dorwinion are mentioned in connection with Avallon and Eriol/Aelfwine's travel into the West. CT believed that Dorwinion (at that time) was located in Tol Eressea. We can assume that Dorwinion, "land of wine," is a bit generic in nature. Wine produced in Tol Eressea before the exile would not appear more than two ages later in a Sindarin/Nandorin realm. So there was likely a place in Middle Earth during the Third Age named or known as Dorwinion.

[Tar Elenion]

Tolkien's "annotated" map has Dorwinion located on it (article will explain the provenance):

https://www.tolkiensociety.org/2015/...h-transcribed/

[Mithadan]

Yes, even Pauline Baynes' poster map has Dorwinion at a similar location, just east of the Sea of Rhun. Tolkien was generally fond of her work.

[Arvegil145]

Originally Posted by Mithadan

Yes, even Pauline Baynes' poster map has Dorwinion at a similar location, just east of the Sea of Rhun. Tolkien was generally fond of her work.

Did you mean west of the Sea of Rhun?

[Mithadan]

Yes, west. Apologies.

[Morthoron]

Originally Posted by Mithadan

Yes, west. Apologies.

Alas, wine has been the Rhun of many a fine philosopher.

[Tar Elenion]

Originally Posted by Mithadan

Yes, even Pauline Baynes' poster map has Dorwinion at a similar location, just east of the Sea of Rhun. Tolkien was generally fond of her work.

The (green) annotation on this map is Tolkien indicating to her where she should place Dorwinion on the 'poster map'.

[Mithadan]

Yes, Scull and Hammond's Chronology relates that on August 28, 1969, Tolkien mailed Pauline Baynes a copy of the LoTR map (that she had previously provided) with added annotations and corrections. The annotated version was provided in connection with her preparation of the "poster map" (Unwin's term). This, I assume, is the map shown in your link. JRRT first began corresponding with Baynes in 1949 when she was illustrating Farmer Giles.

[William Cloud Hicklin]

It wasn't unknown to reproduce place-names from the Undying Lands in Middle-earth: ex. Lorien.

[Arvegil145]

Originally Posted by William Cloud Hicklin

It wasn't unknown to reproduce place-names from the Undying Lands in Middle-earth: ex. Lorien.

I know...but - who were you replying to?



Also, off topic, since I'm already conversing with you - can you maybe take a look at the end of this thread: (http://forum.barrowdowns.com/showthr...t=19520&page=2)?

I mean...you actually edited the Chronology...