"Concerning... 'The Hoard'" revealed

[Arvegil145]

From the Translations from the Elvish forum:

In all my time reading about the numerous arguments over the CtH, I've yet to see this one (which to me, at least, seems obvious as day):

Could the evil within mentioned as a possible cause for the downfall of the Girdle of Melian in Concerning... 'The Hoard' be as simple as Hurin's sheer admittance to Doriath?

That man, after he was released from Angband, has been a walking, talking doomsday device for anyone and anything close to him.


While I originally despised Turgon for not admitting Hurin into Gondolin immediately - given all the things he has done to save Gondolin's hide - I now honestly think that it might have been for the best.

Hurin, just by his sheer presence in the vicinity of Gondolin managed to tip off Morgoth to Gondolin's general location - after which, it was only a matter of time until Gondolin itself was found.

But given the fact that every realm (and people!) who had given him any acceptance after his release ended up absolutely demolished, it makes me think that Gondolin would've somehow manage to fall to ruin even earlier than had Turgon not hesitated about letting him in: which would've essentially killed all hope (i.e. Earendil) that the people of Beleriand had.

After all, Hurin's epithet Thalion ("Steadfast") goes both ways - steadfast in friendship and loyalty (almost to an insane degree), and steadfast in utter hatred and destruction of all that he deems responsible for his family's demise (real or imagined).


One other thing - the dragon-spell(s) is very much a real thing in Tolkien's universe (evidenced by this text and The Hobbit, as well as The Children of Hurin): which makes Hurin even scarier and his raw hatred for everything and everyone even more formidable, given the fact that he single-handedly managed to control this group of hardened warriors/outlaws no doubt possessed by the dragon-spell with his sheer presence alone - with the outlaws only giving in to temptation of the (Dragon)-hoard of Nargothrond (and the resultant battle with Thingol's guards) after Hurin leaves.

Anyway - just a cool little detail.

[Huinesoron]

Originally Posted by Arvegil145

Could the evil within mentioned as a possible cause for the downfall of the Girdle of Melian in Concerning... 'The Hoard' be as simple as Hurin's sheer admittance to Doriath?

That man, after he was released from Angband, has been a walking, talking doomsday device for anyone and anything close to him.

The combined effect you're talking about - Morgoth's curse + Glaurung's spell + Mim's spell + Hurin's curse (on Thingol) - certainly seems metaphysically potent. Is there precendent for a powerful force like this negating an opposing force?

• Finrod's grave is said to be protected, apparently by his redemptive sacrifice. On the other hand, Finduilas' and Morwen's graves are also protected, and they mostly just moped.
• Numenor's ships lost their protection after they began their slide into the Dark, but I always thought that was a decision of the Powers, not a spell breaking in their despite.
• Beren and Carcharoth both breached the Girdle itself - Beren because his Doom was stronger than Melian's power, and Carcharoth because of the Silmaril.

I don't feel like a simple "evil spell" explanation quite fits the setting of Middle-earth, but what does fit is the idea that the Girdle was opened specifically to Thingol's Doom. If Morgoth had launched an attack at the same time as the Dwarves, he would still have been kept out; but under the pressure of all those evil spells, Thingol had chosen his Doom. He didn't know that was what he was doing, but he chose to follow greed rather than honour. When the consequences of that choice came for him, even a Maia couldn't stop them.

Which makes me think the most direct parallel might be the death of the Witch-King. He too was under a spell of protection, and from the text of RotK it was broken by a combination of a special weapon ("No other blade... would have dealt that foe a wound so bitter"), and a Doom which the victim was aware of and knowingly chanced himself against ("not by the hand of man will he fall", indicating that he will fall somehow).

But that does run me directly into the question of Doom ("Thingol's fate was sealed") vs narrative imperative ("after Thingol fell so badly from grace he had to get his comeuppance") vs the demands of plot ("the Girdle had to break so the Silmaril could end up with Earendil"). They're very difficult to tell apart.

hS

[Arvegil145]

Originally Posted by Huinesoron

The combined effect you're talking about - Morgoth's curse + Glaurung's spell + Mim's spell + Hurin's curse (on Thingol) - certainly seems metaphysically potent. Is there precendent for a powerful force like this negating an opposing force?

• Finrod's grave is said to be protected, apparently by his redemptive sacrifice. On the other hand, Finduilas' and Morwen's graves are also protected, and they mostly just moped.
• Numenor's ships lost their protection after they began their slide into the Dark, but I always thought that was a decision of the Powers, not a spell breaking in their despite.
• Beren and Carcharoth both breached the Girdle itself - Beren because his Doom was stronger than Melian's power, and Carcharoth because of the Silmaril.

I don't feel like a simple "evil spell" explanation quite fits the setting of Middle-earth, but what does fit is the idea that the Girdle was opened specifically to Thingol's Doom. If Morgoth had launched an attack at the same time as the Dwarves, he would still have been kept out; but under the pressure of all those evil spells, Thingol had chosen his Doom. He didn't know that was what he was doing, but he chose to follow greed rather than honour. When the consequences of that choice came for him, even a Maia couldn't stop them.

Which makes me think the most direct parallel might be the death of the Witch-King. He too was under a spell of protection, and from the text of RotK it was broken by a combination of a special weapon ("No other blade... would have dealt that foe a wound so bitter"), and a Doom which the victim was aware of and knowingly chanced himself against ("not by the hand of man will he fall", indicating that he will fall somehow).

But that does run me directly into the question of Doom ("Thingol's fate was sealed") vs narrative imperative ("after Thingol fell so badly from grace he had to get his comeuppance") vs the demands of plot ("the Girdle had to break so the Silmaril could end up with Earendil"). They're very difficult to tell apart.

hS

Is Mim's spell still a thing at this late point?


But in general, I wasn't really talking about curses, whether Mim's, Glaurung's or even Morgoth's.


Hurin strikes me as a kind of harbinger of Doom at this point: as, if he knocks at your door and you let him in freely and give him food and shelter, your fate is sealed.

I don't really know why or how the mechanics of something like that would work in Tolkien's legendarium, but it has been my impression of his character (after his release from Angband) for years.

[Huinesoron]

Originally Posted by Arvegil145

Is Mim's spell still a thing at this late point?

Probably. Val Balmer has plausibly dated "The Complaint of Mim the Dwarf" to the same era as "Concerning... The Hoard", and apparently the very title of that work is a reference to The Ring of the Nibelung. There's a solid theme linking Mim to cursed treasure; it seems unlikely Tolkien would have abandoned it.

Originally Posted by Arvegil145

But in general, I wasn't really talking about curses, whether Mim's, Glaurung's or even Morgoth's.

And the Oath of Feanor, which curses anyone who claims a Silmaril. And the Doom of Mandos, which Thingol is explicitly said to be entangled in by taking the Silmaril. Probably not the curse Celegorm lays on Beren, though it may be the only curse Thingol isn't under at this point.

Originally Posted by Arvegil145

Hurin strikes me as a kind of harbinger of Doom at this point: as, if he knocks at your door and you let him in freely and give him food and shelter, your fate is sealed.

Definitely Hurin showing up is a harbinger in an external sense - Tolkien wanted everything to fall before him. But I'm not sure I agree that it is internally. I can't think of any Tolkien examples of someone doomed to ignoble death purely by doing good. Good people can surely die - Finrod is a prime example - but to meet a wretched end like Thingol does they have to invite it on themselves by acting badly. Welcoming Hurin doesn't fit that model:

Originally Posted by Concerning... The Hoard

Húrin cast it before the feet of King Thingol in a proud gesture of scorn, saying that as “the Lord of the House of Hador” (Húrin) vowed not be beholden to an elf-King for the fostering of his son, nor the harbouring of his wife and daughter. “Here is your fee! More than enough, maybe, for services so meanly performed; but hold me now out of your debt and friendship!”

Thingol was amazed at the insult, but answered with patience and courtesy, saying he wished for no ending of friendship with Húrin, whose name was honoured among Elves and Men for his great valour in the last Great Battle, and near all Elves and Men had been rather in his debt ever since. But Húrin laughed in contempt and went out, unmolested, into the night.

Promptly massacring the Outlaws might qualify though. Being under the influence (not control) of a malevolent force is not typically an excuse in Middle-earth - see Gollum.

hS

[Aiwendil]

Cross-posting this from the TftE forum.

It still seems to me that admitting Hurin to Doriath was not an evil deed but only a foolish one. Moreover, if we are considering Morgoth's curse, it had already been admitted to Doriath years earlier when Turin was accepted as a fosterling.

If I'm analyzing the story in a writerly mode, the danger I see with the "evil deeds" explanation is that it may feel too ad hoc - that it feels as if the Girdle fails for no reason other than that this is the moment in the story when the author needs Doriath to be invaded by a hostile force. For me, the notion of the cursed treasure itself being the thing that gnaws away at the strength of the Girdle from within offers a satisfying narrative solution.

[Val Balmer]

The crucial point for me here is that "the cursed treasure theme" is very important for Tolkien: it is present in Beowulf and in the Volsunga Saga and Tolkien wants it to have a place in his legendarium...

The Hoard poem itself is a statement of importance for this theme.

It already had a place, of course, in the Hobbit (with the effect of the Dragon sickness on Thorin) and it is there lingering in the Lord of the Rings (with Tom Bombadil exposing the gold of the Barrow-downs), but it was lost in the Silmarillion by having Hùrin only bringing a single necklace.

Having the whole treasure as the trigger of the Ruin of Doriath, maybe because bathed in the blood of the outlaws, creates a new resonance between the Hobbit and the Silmarillion.

There we have the same characters (in a way their descendants: Thraduil and Thorin vs Thingol and Naugladur) affected by the same dragon cursed treasure...

By the way, there is also a resonance with The Lord of the Rings as the hate between Sindar and Dwarves is only cured by the friendship of Legolas and Gimli in the Lord of the Rings...

I find these echoes fuller by considering the treasure of Nargothrond in his right place at the feet of Thingol...

[William Cloud Hicklin]

I'm not convinced that the mysterious "Text X" has to date from the 1950s.