Beren and Lúthien - Changes needed

[Findegil]

First of all: Elvellon, I am glad to have your input here as everywhere. But here it is very welcome indeed, since my talent for rhyming is very limited.

Nonetheless, I have to argue against some of your suggestions.
A general remark first: The argument that what we have here is one of the “songs of Númenor”, has come up in some discussions. For me, it does not hold water for several reasons:
- That a poem or text has be traditioned by the Numenorians does not mean that the in-story author was of mankind. I would argue here to the contrary, since the mannish origin of the Narn was mentioned as an exception. (Nonetheless, later mannish redactions is of course possible.)
- Even so the main line of tradition might be Númenorean, it is by no means impossible that additional sources are involved. Such as eyewitnesses talked to in Imladris.
But these in-story arguments are in a way pointless, because the main counter arguments for me are external:
- Some time ago the project discussed if we should assume that our texts have existing counterparts in Middle-earth. And the final result of that discussion was that we could not entertain that idea at all. Tolkien could and did use that idea and thus produce the large corpus of sources we have. But since we decided that we can only hope to produce one single string of very diverse texts telling the Legend of Middle-earth, we have to skip that idea.
Therefore if the result of our editing does not have an existing counterpart in Middle-earth, it does as well not have a history of in-story tradition.
- If we follow the argument that due to its tradition a texts is allowed some failures to its ultimate end, we render our project void and useless. It is no question that a character in the story must not speak the truth, but that is not the point here. If we accept that the texts, we produce have a tradition behind them that allows for them make false statements about what we found as the ‘true’ story, we would have to give our readers some means to find out were these false statements begin and end. That mean would be the full corpus of sources we used. What than is the worth of the text we produced?
- This does not mean, that we can not leave some uncertainty in our version or that we can not use parts that Tolkien did mention with a disclaimer (like the second prophecy of Mandos). But it clearly means we have to take up all such disclaimers, and were we don’t have them we should try to report what we find as the ‘true’-story as well as possible.

Now to the more specific issue:

Line [1241]: First, since line numbers may change, let’s take up an editing mark for this case: BL-RG-00.7. On the case itself, I agree that it was maybe a bit over the top to change each and every occurrence of ‘magic’. Nonetheless for me it has a kind of negative connotation, following the discussion of it between Galadriel and Sam in Lothlorien. Thus it seem inappropriate for a description of a work of craft that seems to appeal to the author. What about getting rid of the means ({magic}[craft]) and instead mention who (masons) used these means:

A vault of topless trees it seemed, {995}
whose trunks of carven stone there stood
like towers of an enchanted wood [1240]
BL-RG-00.7 {in magic }[by masons] fast for ever bound,
bearing a roof whose branches wound
in endless tracery of green {1000}
lit by some leaf-emprisoned sheen
of moon and sun, and wrought of gems, [1245]
and each leaf hung on golden stems.

BL-RG-08.5: Elvellon’s first suggestion with the ‘spark‘-‘dark‘ couple is still my favorite. The ‘gloom’-‘doom’ couple is nice in itself, but is it the doom of the Noldor that they approach going to central square in Tirion? I don’t think so. Aiwendil’s ‘kin’-‘city in’ is to archaic to me. The ‘that folk’-‘twilights cloak’ couple is as well to my liking. I don’t think the metaphor ‘twilight’s cloak’ is to much artistical license. We are dealing with a poem, some freeness must be granted.

BL-SL-03: ‘Apologies if I'm retreading settled ground.’ I don’t think you do, and even if, we have done so before and we will most probably do so in future. The discussion is what brings the project forward. (And often it is the fun of it, not the (temporary) final result.)
‘We're reading a Mannish text, and we know Men thought of the Valar as gods, right?’ Wrong, in two ways: We do not read a mannish text (see my remark above). At best we rad a text edited by man. And the man that thought of the Valar as gods where not the Númenoreans. At first they did know better, being in alliance with the Elves, and later when they rebelled against the Valar, I doubt that they would name them gods, since who would rebel against gods? Anyhow I have to say that using ‘god’ in this context is a no go for me. We can tell our readers that man did name the Valar gods, but to have a group of elvish Exiles address them as such does not work for me. That the Nargothrondrim are Exiles makes these lines anyhow doubt full: They did rebel against the rule of the Valar in the first place, so what would it help, if Finrod would be a Vala?
But I understand the urge to keep the lines. So I searched form some replacement with the one characteristic that could transport the meaning of god like ruler ship: infalliblity. Even so I did not find a solution for the couple, this might by a line of thought worth mentioning.

BL-EX-10: I like your suggestion. In the first part you did edit it more but less so in the last. But as it is ‘grist for the mill’ I would try to leave out the ‘reek’ and use instead the couple ‘seek’-‘indeed’. For that of course we need some additions. I would not use ‘Silmaril’ again here, therefore ‘one stone’ was the best I could come up with. In the next line ‘solemn quest’ is as well the best I found. I had first considered ‘hopeless quest’ but Finrod just declared that he sees that Beren will get it, so that this should give him some hope. Farther on I would like to now why you moved the ‘shall’ in the third last line? I think the line works without that movement.

BL-EX-10 <GA{'}But {this I will say to you,}lastly, ere he bade farewell, [2155]
spoke Finrod: ‘{Celegorn}[Celegorm] the fell,
I say, by the sight {that is given me in }this hour received,
no Silmaril shall be retrieved
by{, that neither} thou nor any {son of Fëanor shall regain the Silmarils}kin or friend,
for ever unto world's end. [u] [2160]
[/b]And this one stone, that we now seek
in solemn quest, shall come indeed{ },
but never to your hands will fall.
Nay, your oath shall devour {you}all
of Fëanor’s sons, and deliver then [2165]
to {other keeping}another the bride-price of Lúthien.'>

Clean text:

But lastly, ere he bade farewell, 2155
spoke Finrod: ‘Celegorm the fell,
I say, by the sight this hour received,
no Silmaril shall be retrieved
by thou nor any kin or friend,
for ever unto world's end. 2160
And this one stone, that we now seek
in solemn quest, shall come indeed,
but never to your hands will fall.
Nay, your oath shall devour all
of Fëanor’s sons, and deliver then 2165
to another the bride-price of Lúthien.'

BL-RG-22: I like your suggestion. But why do you change {neither}[not]?

BL-EX-10.5: I like your suggestion, but aren’t your first three lines each one syllable short? What about {none}no one in the first line and ‘perceiving that evil would follow’ for the second? I have no good solution for the third, but ‘heavily’ would be a last resource.
Maybe my counting is wrong, but isn’t Curufin 3 syllables (Cu-ru-fin)? If so that line is too long. But however the line can stand since we count iambic feet and not syllables propper.

Line [3277]: Thanks for pointing that out!

Respectfully
Findegil

[Elvellon]

Originally Posted by Findegil

First of all: Elvellon, I am glad to have your input here as everywhere.

Thanks, and I appreciate the thoughtful and informative replies. Coming here has sure humbled me in regards to my familiarity with Tolkien, but I'm loving the process of diving deep into this project!!

To your points about the "songs of Númenor" and "Mannish texts," thank you for taking the time to summarize it so clearly. I can see the reasons for adopting this stance, and I'm happy to leave it there as settled.

How about this, then:

So would they not that angry day
King Felagund their lord obey,
but {sullen }murmured that Finrod[ was not grand]
{nor yet his son were as a god}[as any Vala to command].

BL-RG-00.7:
Is there a thread here where the use of the term “magic” was discussed? I'm curious if it is primarily Patrick Curry’s opinion that drove this idea I've seen that Tolkien saw magic as an evil. Is there a clear statement from JRRT on the matter? My understanding has been that Tolkien saw the word “magic” not as inherently negative but as inaccurate, because “all human stories have suffered the same confusion” between “the devices and operations of the Enemy, and those of the Elves” (from Letter 131). Galadriel echoes this sentiment in Fellowship, where she does not say that the word “magic” is only used for “the deceits of the Enemy,” but rather that it is one word being used for two different things. It must not have had too negative an association in her mind, because she then referred to the mirror as “the magic of Galadriel” and “Elf-magic” – and ironic adoption of a word familiar to the Hobbits.

I don’t disagree that the word should be minimized because of its inaccuracy. And this is easy enough to do in prose, but it seems to me that in the Lays, one should do so primarily when it doesn’t disturb Tolkien’s verse too much. Personally, the more I think about it, the more I feel “in magic fast for ever bound” is too lovely a turn of phrase to mess with. But in fairness, here's another suggestion:

A vault of topless trees it seemed, {995}
whose trunks of carven stone there stood
like towers of an enchanted wood [1240]
BL-RG-00.7 {in magic}[so crafted] fast for ever bound,
bearing a roof whose branches wound

BL-RG-08.5:

but is it the doom of the Noldor that they approach going to central square in Tirion?

I was using it in the sense of the Noldor gathering to begin the long, metaphorical march from their “fading homes” to their inevitable doom across the sea.

BL-EX-10:
“Seek” and “indeed” are too imperfect of a rhyme. I think the word “reek” here is altogether appropriate: Tolkien refers to “the reeking towers of Thangorodrim,” as well as “the reeking tops of the Iron Mountains”; and he used the word in the sense I’ve used it more than once in composing the Lay of Leithian: “above the reek and trampled dead”, “A second morning in cloud and reek”, “amid the reek, and far and wide”. It’s only because he used it so frequently that I felt comfortable using it. In general, I’ve tried to restrict my changes to rhymes that Tolkien used elsewhere; that seemed the safest, least destructive, course.

Farther on I would like to now why you moved the ‘shall’ in the third last line?

I’m not sure, but you’re right, it shouldn't have been moved!

BL-RG-22: I like your suggestion. But why do you change {neither}[not]?

Again, I’m not sure, it must have been late! It should be “neither.”

BL-EX-10.5:

I like your suggestion, but aren’t your first three lines each one syllable short?

You’re right about the first line: "but alone; for none would go" is 7 syllables. "No one" misplaces the stresses, so to preserve natural stresses, I'd suggest a rhetorical repetition of the word "went" (I've bolded the stresses):

and went with hound and bow and spear,
but went a-lone; for none would go,

However, the other two lines do have the proper four feet of eight syllables (stresses in bold):

per-ceiv-ing e-vil would foll-ow
the curse that heav-y lay there-in

The stresses on "follow" and "therein" are slightly unnatural, but Tolkien broke the rules plenty (Shakespeare too), so I'm not too bothered by it, personally.

Maybe my counting is wrong, but isn’t Curufin 3 syllables (Cu-ru-fin)? If so that line is too long. But however the line can stand since we count iambic feet and not syllables propper.

Tolkien himself didn’t always stick to only eight syllables, as long as the extra syllables were unstressed. For example: “the quest of the shining Silmaril” is nine syllables, as is “of the breaking of the towers of stone” (ten syllables if you pronounce towers as “tow-ers”).

[Findegil]

BL-SL-03:

So would they not that angry day
King Felagund their lord obey,
but murmured that Finrod was not grand
as any Vala to command.

Looks good for me.

BL-RG-00.7: I searched for the discussion about 'magic', but could not find it. I think now that the discussion was done in a phase of the project with not many participants, but I am not sure of that. But I can asure you that Patrick Curry's opinion played no part in that discussion at all. The Letter you quoted and the refelctions of Galadriel where considered.
Anyhow, after that discussion, I as the keeper of the texts, did go through all texts and introduced the changes (when the reference was to elvish craft) without farther discussion of each occurence. Therefore I appreciate when you (or anybody else) finds such places where these regular changes are problematic for any reason.

In this special case I, after farther refelction could even agree to keep magic, since we most probably speak about a work crafted by dwarfish masons and we did allow magic to stand in other cases of dwarfish craft. But nonetheless as they had elvish help and the help of Melian in crafting the halls of Menegroth, I would rather replace it.
I like your new suggestion of {in magic}[so crafted]. Aiwendil, is that okay for you as well?

BL-RG-08.5: I did understood your use of doom well enough. I just find it a bit broad. But if you and Aiwendil are okay with it, we can take it.

BL-EX-10: Okay, as I said, I am far from beeing in expert in ryhming. If 'seek'-'indded' id not good your lines wih 'seek'-'reek' are totally okay for me.

BL-EX-10.5: Well, as a none native speaker syllables and stress counting doesn't seemed to be that easy for me. For the first line your repetition of 'went' works fine for me.

Respectfully
Findegil

[Aiwendil]

On the subject of the provenance of the texts, I agree with Findegil.

BL-RG-00.7: I don’t really agree that “magic” must be purely negative in its connotations. I’m not sure about “by masons”, though. The imagery in the poem is one of a forest of real trees being petrified, turned to stone. Yes, in reality they were carved by masons, but what the poem is saying is that they are like towers of an enchanted wood, made fast by magic.

“So crafted fast forever bound” doesn’t work for me, either; I’m not quite sure how it fits grammatically, and again it loses the point of the imagery, which is of a forest having been turned to stone.

BL-RG-08.5: I guess I can live with the spark/dark solution, though again, I also think that omitting the lines as we had earlier decided is fine.

BL-SL-03: I agree with Findegil here. I’d prefer to omit the couplet, unless a different solution can be found. The “grand/command” solution doesn’t work for me, I’m afraid. “Grand” is not the appropriate word here.

BL-EX-10: I’m not wholly convinced by either of these proposals.

First of all, I’m not sure what you mean, Elvellon, by “putting ‘Celegorm the fell’ and ‘sight that is given’ back in Finrod’s mouth. In the version previously adopted, both of these phrases are direct quotes from Finrod. However, your first couplet is an improvement over mine in terms of meter. I’m not sure about the “But lastly”, though. I think a slight improvement over your lines would be:

But Finrod, ere he bade farewell,
spoke thus: ‘To Celegorm the fell

“By thou” is wrong; it should be “by thee”.

I’m not sure about “from the reek”. I mean, yes, maybe it’s true that Angband is filled with noxious fumes, but since this hasn’t been brought up, it seems an odd way to refer to it. I recognize that “’neath the triple peak” is also clunky, but at least “triple peak” is a clear reference to Thangorodrim. Findegil’s version tries to avoid this, but “seek” and “indeed” fail to rhyme.

I don’t understand why you change “shall” to “will” in these lines:

will be delivered from the reek,
but never to your hands will fall.

“Shall”, with its implication of necessity, seems more appropriate for a foretelling of the future, a “doom” as it were.

Finally, I think the last line, “to another the bride-price of Luthien” is also too long.

I will try to take another crack at these lines tonight, but at least my earlier proposal could be slightly revised:

But Finrod, ere he bade farewell,
spoke thus: ‘To Celegorm the fell
I say, by sight received this hour,
by neither thine nor any power
shall thy kin the Jewels regain
before the end. All in vain
you swore. And this that we now seek
shall come from ‘neath the triple peak
but never to your hands shall fall.
Nay, your oath shall devour all
Fëanor’s sons, and to other care
Lúthien’s great bride-price bear.

BL-RG-22: I’m slightly hesitant about “purpose true”, but I suppose it’s fine. However, I do think we should retain “neither” instead of changing to “not”.

BL-RG-10.5: I’m afraid these lines don’t work for me. The “would go/follow” rhyme is very awkward, and the curse doesn’t lay “therein” but rather “thereon”. Also, the line “Celebrimbor rose and disclaimed” is a little metrically awkward. Let me think about these lines; I agree it would be nice to be able to include Celebrimbor’s renunciation here.

Apologies if I'm being a bit difficult about some of these lines, but I really do feel that we should be very careful about messing with Tolkien's verse, and I would generally rather omit some lines than have our amateurish poesy stick out line a sore thumb.

Edited to add: Sorry, I started writing this post before the last two posts from Findegil and Elvellon, but I've edited to add my thoughts on additional proposals from them.

[Elvellon]

Apologies if I'm being a bit difficult about some of these lines, but I really do feel that we should be very careful about messing with Tolkien's verse, and I would generally rather omit some lines than have our amateurish poesy stick out line a sore thumb.

No apologies necessary. Since I’m new here, I just want to make sure to say, I’m not wedded to any of my suggestions, nor am I offended by their rejection. I realize I’m very late to the party, and suggesting changes to things that were decided years ago, so I’m just offering up ideas. And though I might disagree, it’s never with hard feelings.

BL-RG-00.7: I agree, which is why I think "by magic fast for ever bound" is really best here.

BL-RG-08.5: Omitting is best, since a solution hasn't been found that everyone is happy with.

BL-EX-10:

First of all, I’m not sure what you mean, Elvellon, by “putting ‘Celegorm the fell’ and ‘sight that is given’ back in Finrod’s mouth. In the version previously adopted, both of these phrases are direct quotes from Finrod.

In the latest working draft Findegil sent me, these lines are outside the quotes. Here is the clean text of that section taking from the Word doc:

But Finrod, ere he bade farewell,
spoke thus to Celegorm the fell,
by sight allowed him in that hour:
‘By neither thine nor any power
shall thy kin their Jewels regain
before the End; yea, all in vain
you swore. And this that we now seek
shall come from ‘neath the triple peak,
but never to your hands shall fall.
Nay, your oath shall devour you all,
Fëanor’s sons, and to other care
shall Lúthien’s great bride-price bear.’

Maybe the working draft was not updated?

For comparison, in §194 of the Grey Annals, Finrod says:

[…] ‘But this I will say to you, [son of Fëanor >] Celegorn the fell, by the sight that is given me in this hour, that neither thou nor any son of Fëanor shall regain the Silmarils ever unto world’s end. And this that we now seek shall come indeed, but never to your hands. Nay, your oath shall devour you, and deliver to other keeping the bride-price of Lúthien.’

My goal was to find a way to more closely follow this speech.

I’m not sure about the “But lastly”, though. I think a slight improvement over your lines would be:

That’s a fine improvement.

“By thou” is wrong; it should be “by thee”.

You're right, but that's what Tolkien used, so I left it.

I’m not sure about “from the reek”. I mean, yes, maybe it’s true that Angband is filled with noxious fumes, but since this hasn’t been brought up, it seems an odd way to refer to it. I recognize that “’neath the triple peak” is also clunky, but at least “triple peak” is a clear reference to Thangorodrim. Findegil’s version tries to avoid this, but “seek” and “indeed” fail to rhyme.

It's a poetic allusion to the reek of Thangorodrim and the Iron Mountains, and it’s a noun Tolkien used several other places in the text, although not for Thangorodrim, but it still seemed a rather safe option for a rhyme, in order to more closely follow the Grey Annals.

“Shall”, with its implication of necessity, seems more appropriate for a foretelling of the future, a “doom” as it were.

You’re right, it should be “shall be delivered from the reek,” but “but never to your hands will fall” seems fine to me, and keeps the number of “shalls” the same as in the original quote.

Finally, I think the last line, “to another the bride-price of Luthien” is also too long.

It’s 11 syllables, true. But it still works as 4 feet:

to an-oth-er the bride-price of Lu-thi-en

which doesn't sound so out of place, and has the benefit of being Tolkien's own words.

[Aiwendil]

BL-EX-10:

In the latest working draft Findegil sent me, these lines are outside the quotes.

I have to apologize; it seems the version of our chapter that I have on my laptop may not be up to date. It had a slightly different version with those lines part of the direct quotation.

You're right, but that's what Tolkien used, so I left it.

I don't see where Tolkien used "by thou", which would be quite a surprising error from him.

It's a poetic allusion to the reek of Thangorodrim and the Iron Mountains, and it’s a noun Tolkien used several other places in the text, although not for Thangorodrim, but it still seemed a rather safe option for a rhyme, in order to more closely follow the Grey Annals.

I understand this, but I still don't think it works here. Tolkien uses the word plenty of times in descriptive passages, but here it's being asked to stand as a metonym for Thangorodrim or Angband, without any other context.

If the rhyme using "reek" is strongly preferred to "triple peak", we might make it a little clearer:

But Finrod, ere he bade farewell,
spoke thus: ‘To Celegorm the fell
I say, by sight received this hour,
by neither thine nor any power
shall thy kin the Jewels regain
before the end. All in vain
you swore. And this that we now seek
shall come from Angband's smoke and reek
but never to your hands shall fall.
Nay, your oath shall devour all
Fëanor’s sons, and to other care
Lúthien’s great bride-price bear.

It’s 11 syllables, true. But it still works as 4 feet:

It's four feet, yes, but three of those feet are dactyls instead of iambs or trochees. Scanning through Tolkien's verse in this lay, I can't find any lines that do that - in fact, it's rare to find a line with other than 8 or 9 syllables.

So, overall, I think I prefer my version above.

[Elvellon]

Originally Posted by Aiwendil

I don't see where Tolkien used "by thou", which would be quite a surprising error from him.

Not "by thou." I'm referring to "neither thou nor any son of Fëanor" in §194 of the Grey Annals.

If the rhyme using "reek" is strongly preferred to "triple peak", we might make it a little clearer

I like that.

It's four feet, yes, but three of those feet are dactyls instead of iambs or trochees. Scanning through Tolkien's verse in this lay, I can't find any lines that do that

I can think of one, line 189 of the Lay Recommenced:

• no shadow of Morgoth, and no evil thing

And he did use 10 syllables every so often (not an exhaustive list):

• and secretly, alone, would peril dare,
• of many a bird, the pattering fall
• great powers, and towers, and strong walls shake;
• in the land of the Valar long ago;
• in dream and wandering.’ Whispering low
• The wolves whimpering and yammering fled
• thou shalt learn the power of Elfinesse!’
• in the dark corridors. ‘A guileful oath
• Then clear in the silence the cold words rang