**Spoiler Warning** Rings of Power S2E8 - "Shadow and Flame"

[Boromir88]

Just a minor note before getting into some more details when I have time. Overall, Season 2 was a noticeable improvement over Season 1. I'd say mostly it is because of Celebrimbor and Annatar's scenes, which was far better than Halbrand's/Galadriel's story in Season 1.

I read somewhere that the showrunners have said the Dark Wizard is not Saruman.

It was a bit disappointing seeing Durin's Bane basically look the same as PJ's, but the effect of its shadow-y wings looked much cooler. RIP Durin III I really enjoyed Peter Mullan in that role.

Originally Posted by Snowdog

We check in on Numenor and it all remains confusing, half sketched. They really need to flesh out what is happening in Numenor to land this entire enterprise. Again, I'm hoping they spend more of S3 on Numenor, and I am hoping that with Elendil riding away from the mob scene in Armenelos, he find's Anárion in Andunie in the west. I fully expect to be disappointed though.

From comments made previously by the showrunners, I get the impression they understand the Numenor story far better than Peter Jackson. From interviews they've also said Numenor is their favorite "2nd Age story" and displayed the understanding that Numenor tears itself apart between the factions and Pharazon's desire for "deathlessness." So, they've demonstrated to have a deeper understanding of the source material than PJ's surface understanding. My question still remains if they can weave those themes into a compelling story. Numenor is also the story that suffers the most from the time crunch they have to do.

[Tar Elenion]

Originally Posted by Boromir88

I read somewhere that the showrunners have said the Dark Wizard is not Saruman.

The Disingenuous Duo (or McKay) also said this:
DEADLINE: Finally we come to The Stranger and his journey. By the end, he’s called Grand Elf, and shortens it to Gandalf. He also finds the staff we’ve become so used to seeing. He survives the one called the Dark Wizard who proposes the rule Middle-earth together. I thought that was Saruman, but perhaps that wizard comes in later. Talk about the wizards, and the establishment of that signature LOTR character Gandalf.

McKAY: Well, first of all, I would just reflect that I think your assessment of the Dark Wizard being Sauron might be a fairly astute observation.
https://deadline.com/2024/10/lord-of...th-1236106572/

I think the "Sauron" is a typo for "Saruman".

[Oddwen]

Originally Posted by Form

Grand Elf = Gandalf? Fdffff!!¡!!! <-- I hate this. I really do. Gandalf is one of his NEWER names: the name from the folk of Dale and their kin in Rhovanion. All of his names are in LotR: you're allowed to use them! Mithrandir, Incanus... there are options! At least call him WAND ELF (i.e. Staff Elf)--if that was "grand elf" that's a false etymology, which is basically the Cardinal Sin for Tolkien.

Nori even called his staff "the gand" earlier in the season!

[Formendacil]

Originally Posted by Oddwen

Nori even called his staff "the gand" earlier in the season!

Oh dear God, was it there before us the whole time?

I am disappointed the Stranger wasn't Saruman--not least because it means we're not going to get Gandalf disembarkening at the Grey Havens: his arrival mirroring his departure.

[Huinesoron]

Blerg. That was not a particularly fun episode. Largely following Wikipedia's ordering here, because who can remember when each scene fell?

• Why is the Balrog about 100 ft tall? Was it that big in the movies?
• The dwarves have been spectacularly one-note this season: either Durin the Lesser or Disa says "we have to fight my/your father", and then realises they can't actually do it. I think this happens literally every episode they're in, and this one was no different.
• Durin leaps pointlessly to his death, with his legs sticking out at weird angles. Luckily, the Balrog is dumb enough to smash a wall and trap itself while chopping him in half in mid-air.
• During the early Stranger/Harfeet scenes, I said the most interesting option would be if they were the two Blue Wizards. The funniest would be if the Dark Wizard was somehow Radagast.
• I'm not sure how dropping a canyon on a bunch of people Stranger literally has never met is going to help, Evil Dude.
• CELEBRIMBOR! DON'T TAUNT THE NECROMANCER!
• Oh hey not taunting the Necromancer is actually plot relevant, huh.
• Did Brim deliberately anger Sauron enough to get him to kill him? Well done, Brim.
• Okay, as soon as he says "Lord... of the Rings", Sauron's eyes go anime-huge. You just know he's going "that's an amazing title, I'm putting that on all my letterheads". I don't think he even registered Brim dying, he was too busy thinking how cool it was.
• Meanwhile In Numenor... Phazzy, if you were just going to randomly murder everyone, why bother with the Trial By Squid last time? Just stab them all and be done with it.
• I did appreciate Narsil being the same sword as in the movies. I can accept it being a gift from Miriel - it's kind of like she's passing the true rule of the Numenoreans to Elendil with it.
• Is this where the Galadriel bits go? I feel like she needs to stop surrendering at every opportunity, she's going to get her rank taken away again.
• Okay, Adar with Nenya was pretty cool.
• I was really worried he was going to reveal his original name as a canon one. My bet was on "Feanor" (who, to be clear, is not actually confirmed dead in the books they have the rights to).
• HA HA ADAR GOT CAESAR'D.
• Galadriel is really quite bad at this swordfighting business. She's getting beaten by a dude wielding a hat, it's embarassing!
• I don't actually think turning into other people would/should distract her. She knows it's him, she can just stab away.
• NOPE GALADRIEL GOT STABBED WITH A HAT. That is the single most lethal hat in all of Middle-earth.
• I did guess she was gonna go off the cliff... is Elwing mentioned in LotR? Because yeah, there's actual precedent for 'jump off cliff with magic jewellery and hope the Valar have mercy'.
• Oh lordy biscuits, the Isildur stuff... MATE THAT'S NOT LOVE. In her case she's barely even pretending. She just wants to go hang out in Numenor!
• Kemen grandstanding on the docks was kind of fun though. If Arondir hadn't gone and gotten himself pointlessly killed on the other side of the map, he could have just shot all the invaders in the face and saved the day. Welp!
• Oh, Arondir isn't dead. He's... fine? Not even injured? Did I hallucinate him being very clearly killed by Adar last episode?
• Elrond begging for the books to be saved was kind of funny. (Also: Sauron probably wanted those books. Whoops!)
• Oh, the dwarves showed up. Way, way too late, and kind of in passing, rather than as a triumphant moment like it should have been.

I think that takes me to the final roundup, so, where did everyone land?

- Nori splits up with the Stranger for... no obvious reason? And only after all the people she could go with have left? After saying she was gonna help them pack but they were too annoying?
- Stranger just finds a staff on the floor, then goes back for a singsong with Tom Bombadil. I would have really respected if that was the final scene of the episode, but alas. (Also, Tom has a hedgehog teapot.) (Also, yes obviously he's Gandalf, we all knew that.)
- Isildur has just... left the girl to go back to where he's the son of a traitor? Why? He's just gonna get locked up back on Numenor.
- Tar-Miriel is in handcuffs. Shame she didn't think to demand to go for a swim again, or some other bizarre legal malarkey.
- We're apparently doing Dwarven politics next time. Also Durin has a previously-unmentioned brother (as indeed does Isildur). Seems to be going around.
- Elendil has failed to take a single other Faithful with him while riding off to the west.
- And Galadriel has been healed of her hat-related injuries by the Rings (as established with Adar's healing), and taken to Rivendell. Rivendell is annoyingly sound-stagey/CGI-river-y, and I really didn't like that they introduced it with people waving swords around and cheering for battle. That's not what the Last Homely House is supposed to be about.
- Galadriel is asked for military advice, gives a waffling speech about sunrises. Gil-Galad waves a sword about. Elrond seems to be distracted figuring out the best place to put a delicately arched bridge, and maybe a patio for any councils he might need to hold. Arondir Was There Also. And why is there a dude in the crowd with Legolas' knives?

I was relatively enjoying the series until these last two episodes, but they were just an unrelenting display of random brutality and blood. That's not what Tolkien should be; his battles were places for characters to show their quality, whereas here, the actions of the characters meant nothing against the stabbing.

hS