Heed no nightly noises

[doug*platypus]

I think that if Tom had been more aware of the terrible dangers facing Frodo, he would have accompanied the hobbits the whole way. After the barrow, he rode with them all the way to the road, which marked the bounds of his little realm. To this day, I still can't figure out how Aragorn was in exactly the right spot! Of course, he does have keen eyesight and may have been able to spot them from far away. I'm sure that Tom Bombadil on Fatty Lumpkin would be quite a sight.

Unless you subscribe to the theory that he is Ilúvatar, it is difficult to imagine that he set the hobbits up for their barrow experience. Although they experienced a lot, got some very important trinkets for later, and had a bit of a naked romp, it was a very dangerous predicament to be in (Gandalf himself thought it was the most dangerous point up until Rivendell).

I think that Tom referring to Goldberry's 'Washing Day' was just his quite little name for when it rained. I think the only things being washed were the plants, and that Goldberry's being mentioned in connection with the rain just shows more fully her background as a water spirit. Of course, she was probably outside in the rain all day. Remember that when she sat down she always had her feet in water. The rainy day just seemed to fit in nicely, allowing the hobbits (and the readers) time to sit back and chill, and listen to some stories. I think Tolkien is actively condoning the practice. I love those rainy Tom Bombadil days.

[radagastly]

First, let me say that I am "ainur." I lost my password in a server (or provider) change, and recreated myself as "radagastly."

I am still convinced that Goldberry's "washing day" was more than just a coincidental rain. I also believe that the reason that Tom Bombadil kept the Hobbits in his house for an extra day was because he knew that they would be in more danger if he let them go while the Witch-King of Angmar was still prowling the Old Forest and the Barrow Downs. Goldberry's "rain" washed away the Hobbits footprints, and any sign of their passing, but re-quelled the Old Forest, calmed them, off-setting the Lord of the Nazgul's taint. Rinsed it away, as it were. They would never have made it to the Barrow Downs without the Old Forest letting them go. That was Tom's choice, and Goldberry's. Not the "Forest's."

I think that if Tom had been more aware of the terrible dangers facing Frodo, he would have accompanied the hobbits the whole way. After the barrow, he rode with them all the way to the road, which marked the bounds of his little realm. To this day, I still can't figure out how Aragorn was in exactly the right spot! Of course, he does have keen eyesight and may have been able to spot them from far away. I'm sure that Tom Bombadil on Fatty Lumpkin would be quite a sight.

I suspect that Tom Bombadil has very keen eyesight as well. He very probably brought the Hobbits to just the right place on his border so that Aragorn could hear their conversation. I never saw coincidence in that, only design.

[Tuor in Gondolin]

For now just two comments:
1) an interesting thread, I'm glad
Ainur/Radagastly restarted it, will
probably post on the subject later.
2) A similar name problem happened to me
and I had to go with a variant name. Oh, well.

[Gordis]

Originally Posted by ainur

The hobbits reached Bombadil's house on the 26th in the evening and stayed through the 27th, leaving on the 28th in the morning.

Originally Posted by radagastly

I am still convinced that Goldberry's "washing day" was more than just a coincidental rain. I also believe that the reason that Tom Bombadil kept the Hobbits in his house for an extra day was because he knew that they would be in more danger if he let them go while the Witch-King of Angmar was still prowling the Old Forest and the Barrow Downs.

I completely agree with you. Tom must have known that the Witch-King was visiting the Wights in the Barrows and kept the hobbits in his house for an extra day to let the WK finish his business and depart. To prove it we now have new quotes from the Hunt For the Ring published in the Reader's Companion:

" four of the Riders pursue Rangers along Greenway, and having slain them or driven them off Eastwards, make a camp at Andrath [...] [The Witch-king] now visits the Barrowdowns and stops there some days (probably until late on 27). This proves a main error, though in fact it was nearly successful, since the Barrowwights are roused, and all things of evil spirit hostile to Elves and Men are on the watch with malice in the Old Forest and on the Barrowdowns. RC, p. 145

Moreover, on September 27 there was an additional danger lurking around : two nazgul were unsuccessfuly searching for the WK somewhere on the Downs:

[Khamûl sends] sends [two nazgul] along the East Road, with orders to report to [the Witch-king] the eastward movement of the Ring [...][The two sent east] pass along the East Road, and visit Bree and 'The Prancing Pony'. They then go in search of [the Witch-king] but cannot at once find him [until 27th September]. - RC, p.164

So on September 27 (Goldberry's washing day) the Witch King was visiting the Wights in their Barrows, two wet and miserable nazgul were wandering on the Downs, and Tom kept the hobbits cozy and dry in his house. On the night of Sept. 27-28, the 3 nazgul, after a happy reunion, left together for Andrath, and the following morning (Sept 28) Tom bid the Hobbits farewell.

[CSteefel]

Great thread and posts.

I think your explanations are reasonable, and in fact supported by several lines of evidence. It may in fact be noteworthy that the Hobbits heard no "nightly noises" on their second night (the night of the 27th, by which time the Witch King and the two Nazgul must have left the Barrow Downs). I had previously taken these "nightly noises" as just the over-active imaginations of the Hobbits, but it seems to make sense that this in fact was the evil things in the Old Forest roused by the visit of the Witch King.

And as has been mentioned, Bombadil clearly had a good deal more knowledge of who was in the neighborhood than he let on initially, so I don't doubt that he was aware of the visit of the WK just to the east. The presence of Aragorn to the north may be less important for the story, but there is perhaps a hint here also that Bombadil knew he was there, since in commenting on the jewels and swords they find in the Barrow, he mentions that the swords were
.

..forged many long years ago by Men of Westernesse: they were foes of the Dark Lord, but they were overcome by the evil king of Carn Dum in the Land of Angmar.
'Few now remember them,' Tom murmured, 'yet still some go wandering, sons of forgotten kings walking in loneliness, guarding from evil things folk that are heedless.'

If this were not a direct enough reference to the Dunadan, the hobbits are then visited with a vision of the Dunadan and Aragorn:

...a vision as it were of a great expanse of years behind them, like a vast shadowy plain over which there strode shapes of Men, tall and grim with bright swords, and last came one with a star on his brow.

Of course, it is one of the themes of the Bombadil chapter that the Hobbits are visited by visions, whether while waking or asleep, and that these visions are somehow connected with the power of Bombadil.

[Curunir]

Hello folks, this is my first post here. Nice to find a forum where so many folks are seriously discussing Tolkien's work.

I've thought about Bombadil a bit. Now he may be an anomaly, but in my view he is quintessential to the books, because he shows Tolkiens world is essentially one of powers.
This is evident when Gandalf tells Frodo about his imprisonment in Orthanc.

('Yes, I, Gandalf the Grey,' said the wizard solemnly. 'There are many
powers in the world, for good or for evil. Some are greater than I am. Against
some I have not yet been measured. But my time is coming)

This is defined in a spheric, or topical world way. Each 'power' (this is of course the Valar and Maiar, but also the Istari and the ringwielders) has its field of influence, or care/stewardship. This is evident in Rivendell and Lorien being places where the decay of the world is halted for some time, and the memory of the ancient days of Middle-Earth can still be felt. Elrond and Galadriel both have, through their rings, a stewardship of sorts, but of a physical place.

Gandalf is also a steward, but in a more general sense: he is a carer for the children of Iluvatar. He says exactly this to Theoden on his suicide rampage ('I too, am a steward')

From the Silmarillion:
Wisest of the Maiar was Olórin. He too dwelt in Lórien, but his ways took him often to the house of Nienna, and of her he learned pity and patience (...) though he loved the Elves, he walked among them unseen, or in form as one of them, and they did not know whence came the fair visions or the promptings of wisdom that he put into their hearts. In later days he was the friend of all the Children of Ilúvatar, and took pity on their sorrows; and those who listened to him awoke from despair and put away the imaginations of darkness. (Silmarillion)

He is after all, ‘a servant of the secret fire’ and ‘wielder of the flame of Anor’ (which is the ring Narya, the ring of fire):

It is described as having the power to inspire others to resist tyranny, domination, and despair (in other words, evoking hope from others around the wielder), as well as giving resistance to the weariness of time: "Take now this Ring," he said; "for thy labours and thy cares will be heavy, but in all it will support thee and defend thee from weariness. For this is the Ring of Fire, and herewith, maybe, thou shalt rekindle hearts to the valour of old in a world that grows chill" (Círdan the Shipwright to Gandalf)..

Being a power (a good power at least) essentially involves being a steward. Look also at Melian and her girdle. Aragorn who spends many years protecting the Shire and other parts of the world.
Saruman who becomes steward (and eventually a locked-in gatekeeper) of his own fortress. This is true for Sauron as well, who wields his power in the form of influence (eg. pulling snow from Caradhras). His servants perform the physical acts. All the more due to his no longer having a physical body. And take Denethor, he is no more than a steward. As opposed to Theoden who is a steward to his people ('what will you say of the children of Rohan, who lay dead at helm's deep' as he says to Saruman.. imagine Denethor saying that).

To me, Bombadil is so important because he symbolizes exactly that. By showing us the gentle but all-encompassing power Bombadil wields when he is within his own domain (evident because he is unaffected by the rings power, and has power to hold Old man willow and the Barrow Wights), Tolkien in a way shows us how and why these powers exist in the world. As has been remarked here, Bombadils interest and influence go no further than the borders of his land, the boundaries of his sphere. Therein he is all-knowing and omnipotent (again, in a gentle way).

As such he is to me Tolkiens way of illustrating the way powers manifest themselves and interact in his world. Bombadil also makes us see the difference in the way the good and evil powers manifest themselves. Was not the fall of Melkor a result of the fact he was not satisfied with where the limits of his influence or care lay, though they were the broadest of all the ainur. His very aim was to reshape the world as he saw fit (changing the songs of the other ainur
, destroying the lamps ). But when the Valar retire to valinor after the destruction of the lamps, he literally dilutes his essence, his power all over Arda, marring everything. Hence, he is not strong enough to withstand the Valar at the time of his first imprisonment (in the Halls of Mandos).

"The Morgoth" was a term given to the person of Melkor/Morgoth in his complete power over the matter of Arda: therefore Dragons, Trolls, Orcs, and even Angband were in a way part of "The Morgoth", but not part of Melkor/Morgoth. While Melkor/Morgoth was eventually executed by the Valar, the only way to destroy "The Morgoth" would be to completely destroy all of Arda and render it anew: a task the Valar could not do without also destroying the Children of Ilúvatar and therefore unthinkable.
source: http://www.indopedia.org/Morgoth.html#Names_and_Titles

That's why the valar can only banish his fëa and cast it into the void, instead of destroying him. (see also: http://tolkiengateway.net/wiki/F%C3%ABa). So in this way Melkor as a power has gone the furthest, dispersing himself so his influence is felt everywhere, but at a high price.

But I digress. I think the notion of stewardship is I think essential here. Being a steward not for one's own good or to counter one's own fears (Saruman, Denethor), but for the good of the world. This is of course a very Christian thing and biblical (man is a steward to world) which is not surprising given Tolkiens background.

To me Bombadil illustrates this so well because of the small sphere of his stewardship. And his comical reaction to the ring. He is the only incorruptible power (remember, Gandalf wouldn't touch the ring), save Illuvatar perhaps. Of course this supports the theory he is (in the logic of the tale) the embodiment of Illuvatar. But.. I think it's better to interpret him as an enigma illustrating some essential points of Tolkiens world and philosophy, then to try and force him into the laws of logic inherent to this world. Tolkien said something similar in one of his letters (can't be bothered to look it up, sorry ).

Too bad every adaptation of Tolkiens work (all movies, radio plays etc.) has failed to see Bombadils significance (as far as I know).

So, hope you like my ideas about old Bombadillo.

[radagastly]

Just remembered this old chestnut of a thread and thought I'd bring it back up for a few more thoughts.

Originally posted by CSteefel:

And as has been mentioned, Bombadil clearly had a good deal more knowledge of who was in the neighborhood than he let on initially, so I don't doubt that he was aware of the visit of the WK just to the east.

Tom's choice of weapons for the Hobbits was clearly appropriate to the enemy they were facing, whether he had any foresight about some future battle before the gates of Minas Tirith many leagues south of his little land or not. They gave the hobbits the best chance he could provide them to fight their pursuers that were stalking them through his homeland.

I've also been wondering about Fog on the Barrow Downs. A long lasting rain can often be followed by thick fog, depending on temperature changes after the end of the rainstorm. Might the fog be an extention of the rain in this case? Could it be intended to hide the hobbits passage through the Downs, despite the fact it ends up confusing them?

I have more research to do on this, but I thought I'd bring this thread up now to see if anyone had any thoughts on these possibilities. I'll certainly post more later.

[William Cloud Hicklin]

Let's try to keep in mind, though, before we start getting all Talmudic about every word of text, is that everything we and even Tolkien have to say about this section is essentially ret-conning.

The Bombadil chapters were written very early, before Tolkien even knew what the Black Riders were (he thought at the time they might be horsed Barrow-Wights), and envisioned Bombadil halting pursuing Riders with a word and a gesture; this all goes back to the earliest "phase" of writing and barely underwent any revision, save the addition of Sam Gamgee, and switching "Bingo's" (->Frodo's) dreams around the better to fit the timeline elsewhere. "Trotter" (->Aragorn) didn't even exist yet, and Gandalf's whereabouts were a complete mystery.

[mark12_30]

Originally Posted by doug*platypus

I love those rainy Tom Bombadil days.

Aye. Have you ever read George MacDonald's description of a washing rain? Glorious. And rather Bombadil-ish, in my mind.

Love the sig.