Most Tragic Figure

[Bombadil]

Beren
luthien

and someone, i forgot who, had a great point. That their end - though tragic was still a happy death for both of them. But it was still tragic for others, to see the heroes, who fought for love, who took a silmaril from Morgoth himself - dead.

If a tragic hero is defined as a noble person with a fatal flaw that brings them to a low, then I would argue that Faramir is too one of the books tragic heroes. His fatal flaw being his will to prove his value to his father, even when it means almost killing himself. At no time during the book does it seem that he has pleased Denethor.

I guess in a way, the entire family is tragic.

[Gothmog]

I think what is missing in the case of Melkor is that most tragic heroes either die fairly quickly after their "fall", or at least come to a transcendental moment of clarity, realizing their own faults and taking responsibility for the consequences of their misguided actions. Melkor never does acknowledge his wrongdoings, except as a ruse to corrupt Valinor, and by the time he finally dies, we the readers have long since run out of sympathy for him. Simply stated, he wore out his welcome as a tragic hero.

Your right Hill Troll, you don't feel any compassion with Melkor, he's fallen too far and for too long time. Therefore I nominate Feanor and Turin for the Most Tragic Figure. Why? Well, read the the other posts...

[Vanya]

Somehow, Isildur's fate made very sad impression on me. He was great man, who did lots of heroic things (such as saving the seeds of White tree from Sauron in Numenor, what costed him many serious wounds), founded Gondor along with his brother, fought many battles, made Gondor and Arnor powerfull kingdoms, been wise king: but, he is rememberd mostly by his unfortunate desision to keep the ring, what brought him and to his sons, death at Gladen fields. So, everything good that he did became annuled by this.
So, I vote for Isildur.

[aredhelthewhite]

Turin and Hurin had it pretty bad and there was gollum which was obsessably evil and weird but still....

[Lathriel]

I haven't had time to read the whole thread but so far nobody seems to have mentioned Denethor. I find that he is a sad character. I pity him because he has fallen so far. In his younger days he was a brilliant steward but he ended up being corrupted by Sauron. Not only that, he went mad as well. As if that wasn't enough his favourite son had to be killed as well.

Of course Gollum is an obvious choice and thus Denethor becomes forgotten. Bu another character I pity is Saruman. At first he was good but in the end he has become almost as evil as Sauron. However, if he had stayed at the good side of things he could have achieved so much more.

[Feanor of the Peredhil]

Faramir.

Faramir was the most tragic character.

His brother died, and suddenly he was forced to be two people ... himself, who his father ignored largely, because of the reminder of his mother and her death, because of the reminder of Gandalf and his own petty rivalry with the Wizard, and because of personal differences in ethics.

And then he was forced to fill Boromir's role, which was something impossible to do. For starters, as far as being a Captain and commander of Gondor, Faramir was already one, and already loved by the people, but bearing the brunt of his father's superior love of Boromir, and being for all intents and purposes sacrificed for a lost cause (retaking Osgiliath) ... not good.

There are remarkable parallels and reversals in the Boromir and Faramir stories that are something to note;

Aside from talking about what would have happened had their roles been switched ... and how things would have probably worked out better (for the most part, Faramir would probably have lived, helped track Merry & Pippin, stemmed any problems with Eomer, met Eowyn much sooner, fought in Helm's Deep and really lent a hand, offered a direct line to Gondor and their take to Theoden, and rode with Gandalf back to Minas Tirith, while Boromir did a better job of holding the River) ...

Boromir was slain by arrows, Faramir was nearly slain by arrows ... they both really got along with the younger hobbits, they were very much alike, even though Frodo noted that Faramir was more like Aragorn, compared to Boromir being like Denethor ...

Anyway, he was the most tragic character for me, but luckily his fate wasn't sealed in that tragedy like Boromir ... he got to live happily ever after.

[Keeper of Dol Guldur]

Shoot ... folks, that post was mine (Faramir, blah, blah, tragic).

My sister (Feanor of the Peredhil) forgot to log out the last time she used my computer ...

And, since I don't really pay much attention, I hopped on and started posting.

No big deal ... but if anyone feels like repping me or something ... rep me. Heck, boost her rep too if you feel like it ...

[Estelyn Telcontar]

Keeper, there's a simple way to solve that problem - copy, paste, repost. Then it's obviously your own contribution!

(This post will self-combust when it has been seen... )

I'm very sorry if I missed anyone saying this but... has anyone mentioned Galadriel?

Exile is tragic too, and few experience such exile as Galadriel.

(Although it is clear that on some level she doesn't really want to go back to Valinor, at least at first, it is also clear that part of this desire stems directly from anger AT being exiled - making it even more tragic.)

I also felt personally sorry for Celebrimbor, although I don't think tragic is quite the word. He was misled into creating the most beautiful works of his life, and before he was cruelly killed he had the majority of them usurped from him, saw his favourite of them taken forever into hiding, and witnessed the ultimate destruction of his people.

Pretty harsh.
-Craig

[Felagund]

Fëanor. Obviously. He had the potential to be the mightiest of all the children of Eru in Arda, and to do the most good. Instead he doomed all of his people, and probably worst of all, his own children. Imagine if he had not allowed himself to be governed by pride, when the Silmarils were stolen? If he had listened to the cautious words of Finarfin? If he had been swayed by the Doom of Mandos? Indeed, all he did came to nought and ruin. Had he even refrained from burning the ships at Losgar, much sorrow could be avoided, and Melkor might not have been able to sow the seeds of dissension amongst the Noldor, and would ahve faced a unified Leaguer of that people. Indeed, it was his pride that led to his fall, for had he but used caution, or rather cared that Melkor had raised a great defense about Angband, he might not have fallen at the hands of Gothmog. Fëanor might well have had the power to fell Melkor, indeed breaking the doom Mandos had set before him, for he was the most powerful of all the peoples of Arda.

If that's not tragic, I don't know what is.

[Felagund]

Has anyone realized that the WORLD i.e. Arda, is a tragic figure in Tolkien's works? At the end of every age, the world is that much more diminished. Everything following the raising of the first Pillars is frought with sorrow. Morgoth destroys the pillars. The world is diminished. The trees are killed. The world is diminished. The Silmarils are lost for good. The world is diminished. Numenor is destroyed. The world is diminished. Aman/Valinor is seperated from the circles of the world. The world is diminished. The One Ring is destroyed, and all the works that were sustained by any of the lesser rings wither and fade. The world is diminished. The last of the High Elves leave the Middle-Earth. The world is diminished.

The entire story of Arda, from start to finish is frought with tragedy. Or it's just plain sad. You decide.

Call me odd, and you may well laugh at me but here it goes. I know that every tale has its "bad character" but isn't Sauron a tragic character. He was possibly the mightiest of the Maiar and probably (if he hadn’t been seduced by Melkor) would have been loved and admired by Middle Earth in much the same way Gandalf was. To have basically his whole being to be consumed by power, wanting nothing but to dominate middle earth, maybe even Númemor itself, (always preferring to work behind the scenes and indeed when the dark lord does come face to face in battle he is always defeated) then to have that power, his driving force, taken from him during the Great Battle. Taken is the wrong word, he lost it in the worst sense of the word, because he literally couldn't find it no matter how much he called for the ring or how much the ring called and yearned for him. It didn’t matter how large his armies were or how powerful his hold on people was nor how fierce his reputation was, he couldn’t get back the thing he craved most. He spent thousands of years searching for the ring that would give him what he craved, only to have it destroyed almost within arms reach.

Just a thought however there are plenty of tradgic characters in Tolkiens works, some that I havn't even heard of yet I'm sad to say but I thought I'd try and think of something original.

[Azaelia of Willowbottom]

Boromir is one of the most tragic characters. He was tormented by the Ring the whole time he was on the quest, and as a result, was never completely trusted by other Fellowship members. He really did only want the best for Gondor, but in the end, he wasn't even able to help.
Denethor is also tragic. He started out as a very intelligent, noble man... but his tragic flaw was his pride. Because of this pride, he neglected his younger son and in the end was driven insane by Sauron. Once I got over my horror at what he was doing, I felt bad for him. He could have been great, but he was twisted into evil.
Frodo's story is also tragic. He set out with no real intention of going all the way to Mordor, but he did, and it destroyed him to the point that he couldn't live on Middle-earth any more. I found it incredibly sad that he set out with the goal of saving the Shire, but when he returned, he found it completely changed and ruined. Even after driving out the evil, he couldn't stay. He was ill frequently, and probably in pain a good deal of the time, due to the destruction of the Ring. In the end, he couldn't even enjoy the return to the way of life that he had set out to save. He was a hero, but sometimes that can have a huge, even tragic price.

[The Perky Ent]

Well, my opinion has changed very recently on this. Originally I would have said Boromir or Turin, but I just reread the Chapter 'Of the Ruin of Doriath', and I now believe that Hurin was the most tragic of Tolkien's characters. Because he defies Morgoth, Hurin is forced to endure perhaps the most deadly of tourtures: Emotional torture.

Therefore with my eyes thou shalt see, and with my ears thou shalt hear; and never shalt thou move from this place until all is fulfilled unto its bitter end

Melkor gives him essentially part of his own power, just so he can watch his family suffer. You'd think also that during Hurin's watching person he was made, to some extent, invounerable. After around twenty years of sitting chained in a chair, he'd probably develope some pretty bad bedsores! Although Turin's tale is incredibly sad, Hurin is constantly watching. He doesn't share the physical pain of Turin, but he indures a greater pain: Watching helplessly while his family dies. There is, however, a chance I could be exageration the emotional pain Hurin indures in his chair, as

it is not said that Hurin asked ever of Morgoth either mercy or death, for himself or for any of his kin.

Although, this could also imply that Hurin's strength of will was so great that he would indure years of tourture before succumbing to the will of Morgoth. Could this possibly make Hurin the strongest men ever? As if killing 70 trolls wasn't enough, Hurin has a strong enough will of mind to not beg for mercy at the hands of Melkor!

Well, with his children dead, Melkor releases him, most likly knowing that his tragic life is not yet over.

Therefore they did not lay hands on Hurin, but let him walk at will in those lands; in which they were wise, for the remnant of his own people shunned him, because of his coming from Angband as one in league and honour with Morgoth. Thus his freedom did but increase the bitterness of Hurin

By this point, you'd like Hurin would take his own life like Turin, but he still wanders for Morwen. After all the turmoil, he finds his wife, and spends just one day with her before she passes, and then comemorates her in the Stone of the Hapless. If matters couldn't get worse, Hurin was now the last of Dor-Lomin, and that thought itself must have been a heavy burden for him. Having little spirit left in him, he doesn't hesitate to kill Mîm, and take the Nauglamír.

It is after he takes the Nauglamír that the last part of Hurin's tragic life is fufiled: The ruin of Doriath. By giving Thingol the Nauglamír, he will bring about the king's death, the departure of melain, and the ruin of Doriath. Yet, although his action condemns Doriath, he says

Receive now, lord, the Necklace of the Dwarves, as a gift from one who has nothing, and as a memorial of Hurin of Dor-lomin. For now my fate is fufilled, and the purpose of Morgoth achieved; but I am his thrall no longer

He expresses at this point that Morgoth is no longer his slave master, and he ends his life by jumping to his death in the sea. In my opinion, Hurin's sorrow is Turin + 100!

I don't really know how to end this, so I'll just end it. I believe Hurin is the most tragic of Tolkien's Characters!

Wow! What a difficult question! There are so many tragic figures in the books who can pick just one as the most tragic?!

-Gollum
-Feanor
-Turin
-as a matter of fact, Turin's whole family

my gosh this list could go on forever, but those were the most notable to me.

[mormegil]

I would aver that Melkor is the most tragic figure in all of Tolkien's works. Think of the greatness he had the potential to be. Although one could assert that he did have a greatness to him it was turned to evil. He was the greatest of the Valar and yet became the most accursed. Had he but been sufficiently humble he would have been greater than Manwë himself. Yet, tragically the tale is told differently and all sorrow from Arda originated with his rebellion. Careful contemplation would lead one to discover that he is the most tragic figure and the catalyst for all other tragedies in Arda.

Oooo. Good one mormegil, I never thought of that.

I belive that Boromir was the most tragic figure, his death was very heroic.

[Telchar]

Im not sure, but maybe you guys should try to define what tragic caracter means... is it A: The one who bore the bigger sorrow? or B: He whos life ends more tragicly, compared to he/she might otherwise have achived. I think the latter.

With that in mind I belive, like Mister Underhill on page one, that Caracters who fell from greatness are the most tragic - those who were ensnared by lust for power such as Saruman and Sauron, but also Ted Sandyman and Lotho. By imposed sorrow and dispair like Denethor. Or by fear such as the latter kings of Numenor (fear of death).

Among those I regard the fall of Saruman and his end, his hatred and malice was the saddest.

Gandalf in Fangorn
‘Then is not Saruman a traitor?’ said Gimli.
‘Indeed yes,’ said Gandalf. ‘Doubly. And is not that strange? Nothing that we have endured of late has seemed so grievous as the treason of Isengard.

Frodo in The Shire
He was great once, of a noble kind that we should not dare to raise our hands against. He is fallen, and his cure is beyond us; but I would still spare him, in the hope that he may find it.

[Bêthberry]

Originally Posted by Telchar

Im not sure, but maybe you guys should try to define what tragic caracter means... is it A: The one who bore the bigger sorrow? or B: He whos life ends more tragicly, compared to he/she might otherwise have achived. I think the latter.

With that in mind I belive, like Mister Underhill on page one, that Caracters who fell from greatness are the most tragic - those who were ensnared by lust for power such as Saruman and Sauron, but also Ted Sandyman and Lotho. By imposed sorrow and dispair like Denethor. Or by fear such as the latter kings of Numenor (fear of death).

Among those I regard the fall of Saruman and his end, his hatred and malice was the saddest.

It seems to me that Saruman's fall never quite acquires the emotional feel of anguish and regret that the falls of Tolkien's other tragic heroes have, because we are so little shown Saruman in the process of that fall. That final scene in the The Shire, where Grima turns on him, is excrutiatingly well done, but I miss not seeing just how Saruman got there. We tend to be given simply the consequences. This has always, to me, been a missed opportunity for character development, so that Saruman never quite makes it to the pantheon of other tragic heroes.

[Telchar]

It's just that the thread asks for most Tragic Figure not most tragic Hero

[Anguirel]

I believe Bethberry's point still applies. She's not questioning Saruman on the grounds that he is not heroic, (which is debatable-he could be seen as heroic in the Macbeth sense) but rather because several stages of the process of his fall from grace are not documented, a valid objection.

We do see the workings of his jealousy against Gandalf corrupting him, however. But the tantalising description of him seeking out too much knowledge-in other words, experiencing the fall of Faustus, of Icarus, or of Dante's Odysseus-is not covered in detail, and this is to my mind the more interesting aspect.

[lindil]

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Feanor and sons

I was listing Maedrhos and Maglor as tragic because they at least wrestled w/ their faults and are on record as having acted nobly at times. the 3 C's are not. Every word we hear from them is a variation on ugliness and hate.
[w/ the exception of the just rebuke of Eol].Ambarto [Amrod] was killed by Feanor in the burning of the ships at Losgar [PoME - 'theShibboleth of Feanor']. It is true we know nothing of Amras' disposition so I should have avoided his mention. Feanor himself , probably deserves the label wicked rather than tragic as he never shows remorse , and only increases in folly as time wears on. His actions however led to great tragedy for the 9/10'th's of the Noldor who followed him after the warning of Mandos.

</p>

[lindil]

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slander

I said in an earlier post thatCelegorm,curufin and Caranthir spoke no kind words [that were recorded].
well of Caranthir -this i untrue. In the War of the Jewels p.222 [and in the Silm. also I believe] we read:

<blockquote>Quote:<hr> &quot; Then caranthir looked kindly upon Menand did Haleth great honour, and he offered her recompense for her father and brother.A nd seeing over late what valour there was in the Edain,he said to her : 'If you will remove and dwell further north , there you shall have the friendship and protecion of the Eldar and free lands of your own' &quot;. <hr></blockquote>



Lindil is often found on posting on the Silmarillion Project at the Barrowowns<u> Silmarillion canon , theories and discussion Forum </u> 'The dwindling Men of the West would often sit up late into the night, and awaken early before dawn- exchanging lore and wisdom such as they possessed , so that they should not fall back into the mean and low estate of those , who never knew or more sadly still, had indeed rebelled against the Light.' </p>

[Mithadan]

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Re: slander

I think caranthir and Celegorm were the truly distasteful ones. Curufin may have also had his moments. Maglor and Maedhros were the most remorseful and at least recognized that the oath constained them to either commit acts of evil or break their oath. Of Amras we know very little.

--Mithadan--
"The Silmarils with living light
were kindled clear, and waxing bright
shone like stars that in the North
above the reek of earth leap forth." </p>

[Samwise of the shire]

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<img src="http://www.barrowdowns.com/images/posticons/onering.jpg" align=absmiddle> Re:all right red

sorry about the misunderstanding it just seemed to me that maedhros's army snuck up behind another army of good guys and slaughtered them.It seemed to me he betrade them but I'm probably wrong -I only read the sillmarilion once- truce? thanks
S.Gamgee

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R

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</p>Edited by: <A HREF=http://www.barrowdowns.com/cgi-bin/ultimatebb.cgi?ubb=get_profile&u=00000426>Luinar</A>&nbsp; <IMG SRC= http://www.ezboard.com/ezgfx/gicons/white_bluespot.gif BORDER=0 WIDTH=10 HEIGHT=10> at: 3/5/01 12:40:43 am

[Aldaron]

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Re: Tragic Figure

There have been a good number who name Feanor. Indeed, I thought he had a tragic flaw from the first time I read of him. His half-brothers spoke to him, trying to make some sort of peace with him, and he ignored them, not even speaking to them. Whatever you wish to name the flaw, pride or anger, it made him the unlikeable character that he was.

</p>

[Elenanna]

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<img src="http://www.barrowdowns.com/images/posticons/onering.jpg" align=absmiddle> Re: Tragic Figure

I definately think it's Hùrin, he alone had to watch the downfall of his family, and his wife, son and daughters. He believed so much in the elves, and that they would win, but when he was set free he found he was shut out of Gondolin and was shunned by his people, only at the end of his life did he truely escape thralldom and then it was to late, at least he did not know that he brought Turgons kingdom to its end. Fëanor was another, for he saw before he died the strength of Morgoth and knew they didn't have a chance to take back the Silmarils. Maglor and Maedros aswell, for they were kind and goodly and did not want to take the silmarils, but were bound by their oaths... <img src=ohwell.gif ALT=":\">

Lacho calad! Drego morn!

</p>

[enep]

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<img src="http://www.barrowdowns.com/images/posticons/onering.jpg" align=absmiddle> Re: Tragic Figure

Welcome, Elenanna!

Hurin's time was definitely not easy, and neither was Feanor, both very tragic characters, indeed. However...

Poor Smeagol. Nasssty hobbitssess.

- enep</p>

[Elenanna]

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<img src="http://www.barrowdowns.com/images/posticons/eyepal.jpg" align=absmiddle> Re: Tragic Figure

Yes... gollum is a very sad, pityable figure, one of the most tragic in Lotr... or perhaps Theoden, and Denethor. There are quite a few. But out of all of them I feel most sorry for Hùrin.

Lacho calad! Drego morn! - Hurins cry before leaving Hithlum means 'Flame light! Flee night!' Quenyan (I think)

</p>

[Inziladun]

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<img src="http://www.barrowdowns.com/images/posticons/eyepal.jpg" align=absmiddle> Re: Tragic Figure

Théoden and Húrin I can find some pity for,but not Denethor. His woes and ignoble ending were results of his pride.

Those who will defend authority against rebellion must not themselves rebel. </p>

[Elenanna]

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<img src="http://www.barrowdowns.com/images/posticons/eyepal.jpg" align=absmiddle> Re: Tragic Figure

Yes, but it was only because his mind was poisoned by sauron when he looked into the palantir. Sauron filled his mind with depair and drove him into madness for which i pity him.

Elen sila lumenn omentielvo.</p>

[Hannah 3]

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<img src="http://www.barrowdowns.com/images/posticons/onering.jpg" align=absmiddle> Re: Tragic Figure

<img src=frown.gif ALT=""> No one here cares about Miriel! <img src=frown.gif ALT=""> Sure she's not exactly TRAGIC but she depresses me! I mean, she fell asleep forever or something! She's one of my favourites...

But anyway, it has to be Turin. I was really upset the first time I read Beren and Luthien, (When Beren shows his missing hand) but Turin's story was much much worse. I wouldn't count Lalaith as a very tragic figure, but I do count Niniel. With two names like that, she <u>had</u> to have a bad life...

~*~Hannah~*~,
The caged bird sings with a fearful trill
Of things unknown, but longed for still
And his tune is heard on the distant hills
For the caged bird sings of freedom. ~Maya Angelou, 'Caged bird', 'Shaker, why don't you sing?'</p>

[Inziladun]

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<img src="http://www.barrowdowns.com/images/posticons/eyepal.jpg" align=absmiddle> Re: Tragic Figure

It was pride which led Denethor to look in the Palantír in the first place. He had to have known Sauron was likely to be in possession of the Ithil-stone,and did it anyway,thinking himself strong enough to stay in control.

Those who will defend authority against rebellion must not themselves rebel. </p>

[enep]

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<img src="http://www.barrowdowns.com/images/posticons/eyepal.jpg" align=absmiddle> Re: Tragic Figure

Welcome, Hannah 3!

Not to say we don't feel sorry for Miriel - but her status in Tolkien's cosmos as told by him is...well... minor so to speak. Falling asleep forever would not be nice, though <img src=wink.gif ALT="">

Turin, Beren, Luthien, Niniel, Denethor...the list goes on. Tragedy seems to be a very present theme in Tolkien's works.

- enep</p>

[Hannah 3]

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<img src="http://www.barrowdowns.com/images/posticons/eyepal.jpg" align=absmiddle> Re: Tragic Figure

Well, but Aragorn looked into the palantir and stayed in control - of course, he's a lot stronger, but it's not pride. Why does it become pride in Denathor?

Yes, Miriel isn't usially quite what comes to mind when you think of the real tragedies... but I'm sorry for her anyway.

Well, Tolkien made the Silmarilion very tragic, but I don't think anyone in L.R. is so very sad. Denethor, Gollum, Saruman... that's all I can think of right now.
Beren and Luthien I wouldn't call tragic. Losing a hand is bad, but ever such a lot of people seem to lose hands and fingers when they hold precious things in those books.

~*~Hannah~*~,
The caged bird sings with a fearful trill
Of things unknown, but longed for still
And his tune is heard on the distant hills
For the caged bird sings of freedom. ~Maya Angelou, 'Caged bird', 'Shaker, why don't you sing?'</p>

[Elenanna]

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<img src="http://www.barrowdowns.com/images/posticons/eyepal.jpg" align=absmiddle> Re: Tragic Figure

Hello hannah <img src=smile.gif ALT=""> , i can name another one in lotr. some people \will disagree w/ me on this but i think Boromir was sort of sad, after all it was the influence of the ring that caused him to attack frodo... mind you he did die happy or rather at peace

Elen sila lumenn omentielvo.</p>

[Hannah 3]

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<img src="http://www.barrowdowns.com/images/posticons/eyepal.jpg" align=absmiddle> Re: Tragic Figure


I wouldn't disagree with that...

</p>Edited by: <A HREF=http://www.barrowdowns.com/cgi-bin/ultimatebb.cgi?ubb=get_profile&u=00000108>Hannah 3</A>&nbsp; <IMG SRC=http://www.clipartcastle.com/anim3/shining_star.gif BORDER=0 WIDTH=10 HEIGHT=10> at: 3/11/01 2:28:26 am