Celebrimbor - Page 2 - The Barrow-Downs Discussion Forum

Gothmog, LoB · 06-05-2016, 06:12 PM

I know this very late but I really don't see necessarily a contradiction between Celebrimbor being Curufin's sons born in Valinor and him abiding in Gondolin in the First Age.

Celebrimbor was associated with Galadriel and Celeborn in many writings (both in the writings concerning Eregion and the Elessar as well as that late concept of Celebrimbor as a Falmar elf and companion of Galadriel and Celeborn in their lonely ship.

If we go with the assumption that Celebrimbor fell in love with Galadriel (or at least felt close to her) then we don't have to go with that assumption of Christopher Tolkien that he only cut his ties with Curufin and Celegorm after the Nargothrond issues in the wake of Finrod's death but he might actually have never been all that close to his father and the other sons of Feanor.

If we doesn't swear the oath he could easily be closer to Finrod/Galadriel and Turgon than his father and uncles, and subsequently end up joining Turgon in the building of Gondolin (where he might be very welcome due to his craftsmanship).

After all, we also know that Fingon and Maedhros were always close, just as Finrod and Turgon were, as well as Aredhel and Feanor's sons. Not to mention that Finrod later allowed Celegorm and Curufin and their people to settle in Nargothrond.

And with Galadriel settling in Doriath and meeting Celeborn there (if we go with him being a Sinda) where Celebrimbor could not go as a Noldo of Feanor's house it wouldn't be very surprising if he ended up joining Turgon rather than ending up in Nargothrond.

Findegil · 06-06-2016, 04:35 PM

It is never too late especially in a discussion like these that never found a conclusive end.

But as nice as your speculation is, I don't see that with so less an textual evidence as we have, to have Celebrimbor in Gondolin is out of question in our version. That means it is not siad explicit or strongly suggested. If we could handle it textwise, we might leave this question open. But for that I would suggest to work out a text.

Respectfully
Findegil

Gothmog, LoB · 06-06-2016, 07:48 PM

Well, I guess the idea would mostly affect the Elessar story in whatever fashion it would be included. I'd propose to just add Celebrimbor being Curufin's son and Feanor's grandson when he is introduced there as a Noldo of Gondolin.

How exactly that turned out to be doesn't have to be explained. I just spun that tale to illustrate that Celebrimbor being Curufin's son is not necessarily contradictory to him living in Gondolin. Granted, it would be nicer to have some grand tale why he didn't swear the oath with his father, uncles, and grandfather, and so on, and how he and Galadriel actually are connected, but we don't need to know any of that to allow Celebrimbor to go to Gondolin.

One could consider including Tolkien's finale note on Celebrimbor's ancestry (Curufin's son, mother remained in Valinor) during the story of the founding of Gondolin. Something like, 'Among them [the Noldor and Sindar going to Gondolin] also was Celebrimbor, Curufin's son, whose mother had remained in Aman.'

The problem with Turgon having issues with Feanor's sons is only problematic for Celebrimbor's abode if we assume he took part in the Kin-slaying and the oath. For all we know he could have been with Fingolfin's host and might have crossed the ice himself. Just because Feanor's sons all jumped on his bandwagon doesn't mean Celebrimbor did the same.

Findegil · 06-07-2016, 12:42 PM

Gothmog, it seems I did not formulate my proposal clear enough. So here goes the next try: From my point of view (and it seems from the discussion that many of old members thought the same) we have not enough textual evidence to write in our version any clear statement that Celebrimbor was in Gondolin at any time! If we can handle it in the text of The Elessar that he might have been in Gondolin or not, that is fine with me. But that has to be tried out in the text of The Elessar. That is obviously the think someone should do, if he wants to keep Celebrimbor as the maker of both jewells.

Respectfully
Findegil

P.S.: That task seems to be a nice exercise of the ambiguous style of editorial work we have to do so often.

06-06-2016, 07:48 PM	#3
Gothmog, LoB Animated Skeleton Join Date: May 2016 Posts: 38	Well, I guess the idea would mostly affect the Elessar story in whatever fashion it would be included. I'd propose to just add Celebrimbor being Curufin's son and Feanor's grandson when he is introduced there as a Noldo of Gondolin. How exactly that turned out to be doesn't have to be explained. I just spun that tale to illustrate that Celebrimbor being Curufin's son is not necessarily contradictory to him living in Gondolin. Granted, it would be nicer to have some grand tale why he didn't swear the oath with his father, uncles, and grandfather, and so on, and how he and Galadriel actually are connected, but we don't need to know any of that to allow Celebrimbor to go to Gondolin. One could consider including Tolkien's finale note on Celebrimbor's ancestry (Curufin's son, mother remained in Valinor) during the story of the founding of Gondolin. Something like, 'Among them [the Noldor and Sindar going to Gondolin] also was Celebrimbor, Curufin's son, whose mother had remained in Aman.' The problem with Turgon having issues with Feanor's sons is only problematic for Celebrimbor's abode if we assume he took part in the Kin-slaying and the oath. For all we know he could have been with Fingolfin's host and might have crossed the ice himself. Just because Feanor's sons all jumped on his bandwagon doesn't mean Celebrimbor did the same. Last edited by Gothmog, LoB; 06-06-2016 at 07:57 PM.

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06-05-2016, 06:12 PM	#1
Gothmog, LoB Animated Skeleton Join Date: May 2016 Posts: 38	I know this very late but I really don't see necessarily a contradiction between Celebrimbor being Curufin's sons born in Valinor and him abiding in Gondolin in the First Age. Celebrimbor was associated with Galadriel and Celeborn in many writings (both in the writings concerning Eregion and the Elessar as well as that late concept of Celebrimbor as a Falmar elf and companion of Galadriel and Celeborn in their lonely ship. If we go with the assumption that Celebrimbor fell in love with Galadriel (or at least felt close to her) then we don't have to go with that assumption of Christopher Tolkien that he only cut his ties with Curufin and Celegorm after the Nargothrond issues in the wake of Finrod's death but he might actually have never been all that close to his father and the other sons of Feanor. If we doesn't swear the oath he could easily be closer to Finrod/Galadriel and Turgon than his father and uncles, and subsequently end up joining Turgon in the building of Gondolin (where he might be very welcome due to his craftsmanship). After all, we also know that Fingon and Maedhros were always close, just as Finrod and Turgon were, as well as Aredhel and Feanor's sons. Not to mention that Finrod later allowed Celegorm and Curufin and their people to settle in Nargothrond. And with Galadriel settling in Doriath and meeting Celeborn there (if we go with him being a Sinda) where Celebrimbor could not go as a Noldo of Feanor's house it wouldn't be very surprising if he ended up joining Turgon rather than ending up in Nargothrond.

06-06-2016, 04:35 PM	#2
Findegil King's Writer Join Date: Jul 2002 Posts: 1,721	It is never too late especially in a discussion like these that never found a conclusive end. But as nice as your speculation is, I don't see that with so less an textual evidence as we have, to have Celebrimbor in Gondolin is out of question in our version. That means it is not siad explicit or strongly suggested. If we could handle it textwise, we might leave this question open. But for that I would suggest to work out a text. Respectfully Findegil

06-07-2016, 12:42 PM	#4
Findegil King's Writer Join Date: Jul 2002 Posts: 1,721	Gothmog, it seems I did not formulate my proposal clear enough. So here goes the next try: From my point of view (and it seems from the discussion that many of old members thought the same) we have not enough textual evidence to write in our version any clear statement that Celebrimbor was in Gondolin at any time! If we can handle it in the text of The Elessar that he might have been in Gondolin or not, that is fine with me. But that has to be tried out in the text of The Elessar. That is obviously the think someone should do, if he wants to keep Celebrimbor as the maker of both jewells. Respectfully Findegil P.S.: That task seems to be a nice exercise of the ambiguous style of editorial work we have to do so often.