The Greatest of the Eldar

[Eowyn of Ithilien]

Lush I'll comment though I've yet to read the lost tales :S from that quote it sounds to me as if, at that particular moment, Dior was the fairest alive...however at this point his mother had died, so she could no longer be "in contention". Therefore when Tolkien said that Luthien was the fairest that was or ever shall be...this applied to all ages, but his reference to Dior implied only the Children still living.
I could be mistaken of course...*shrug* [img]smilies/smile.gif[/img]

[Feanaro]

"Furthermore, one can even argue that Fëanor had a weakness of spirit, when one considers his inability to deal with his anger, his rashness, cruelty, etc."

I would disagree entirely. I would say that Fëanor's spirit was perhaps too potent. Remember the meaning of his name: Spirit of Fire. All of these negative characteristics, I would argue, are not the product of having a weak spirit, but of an overly fiery one.

As for the rest of this topic, oblo did not throw a theory out into the fray. He answered a question by stating the author's opinion, which, when applied to his own works, is law. This is not to be contested. This topic should not have carried on for this long. If you don't agree with this, fine, but don't try to argue against the author's opinion (which is much more important than your own on such a subject).

[Galin]

Another way to view the distinction might not be so much with respect to the West Lands of Middle-earth of Frodo's day, but rather the West as in Over Sea plus Beleriand. And the Sindar (in general at least) had reached about as West as you could go without sailing Oversea. Note, from the Lhammas again (but just for comparison):

'This is very clear. The term Eldar has acquired its later significance of the Elves of the Great Journey (only), and is not restricted to those who in the end went to Valinor, but includes the Elves of Beleriand: the Eldar are those who completed the journey from Kuiviénen to the country between Eredlindon and the Sea.'

This seems a model for the later Eldar 'West-elves'.

'On the other hand all Elves who did depart from Kuiviénen but who did not complete that journey are numbered among the Lembi. The term Ilkorindi is now used in a much narrower sense than previously: specifically the Eldar of Beleriand -- the later Sindar, or Grey Elves.'

In Lhammas A the Eldar are the departed, including those that went to Valinor and those that reached Beleriand but remained there -- while the Lembi includes those that remained in the East and those that were lost on the journey to Beleriand. This seems an early model for East-elves, though revision was to follow of course.

If 'the Elves far back in the Elder Days became divided into two main branches' the movements of the Nandor spreading into Eriador, and finally entering Beleriand may not have changed the fact that they essentially were considered East-elves. For example, even entering Beleriand 'somewhat later' might have carried a distinction in the minds of the Sindar: 'Moerbin was similarly an equivalent for Avari; but that it did not mean only 'Dark-elves' is seen by its ready application to other Incarnates, when they later became known. By the Sindar anyone dwelling outside Beleriand, or entering their realm from outside, was called a Morben.' Q&E

[Maédhros]

Tolkien does not put conditions or limitations on Luthien's greatness. The issue of her greatness isn't bound up in her deeds or her specific "powers," either. It was just damn good genetics.

I can agree with the fact that Luthien was the greatest overall elf.
What I was trying to know was what was the author intention when he wrote the quote provived by obloquy.
Is she the greatest artisan or warrior, etc. I don´t think so. I think that the author meant that she had the greatest overall spirit or qualities. She was the best overall, not in certain specifics areas.

[Lush]

I would say that Fëanor's spirit was perhaps too potent. Remember the meaning of his name: Spirit of Fire. All of these negative characteristics, I would argue, are not the product of having a weak spirit, but of an overly fiery one.

Feanaro, I think your definition of weakness, when applied to spirit, is different from mine. To me, any being who rages out of control is ultimately weak. To keep your cool requires much more strength than to freak out and go bezerk which is what our dear Fëanor did over and over again.
As for the relevance of this thread itself, I'm sure that "oblo" knew that someone would turn up to argue with him when he started it.

[ July 28, 2002: Message edited by: Lush ]

[Feanaro]

Indeed my definition of weakness (as I should have clarified) has to do with the potency of one's spirit, not the amount of self-control one has over oneself. Indeed Fëanor had little control over his passions. Control over oneself is not something I usually associate with one's spirit (but rather wisdom), hence the confusion and misinterpretation. But I fully agree that Fëanor was not in control of his own fiery nature.

[Lothiriel Silmarien]

This is very hard to pick, but I have read several times that Feanor was the greatest of the Eldar. So in my opinion I would think Feanor, Luthien, Finrod Felagund, Fingolfin, and galadriel. By the time of the War of the Ring, who else was there that old of the elves? Not a lot. Most of them were from Beleriand, and Galadriel did see the light of the two trees, so she was very old. And she grew wise every year.

[*Varda*]

I don't think Feanor was the greatest of the Eldar. Not in spirit anyway. He may have had a strong spirit, but in terms of purity it was arguably pretty weak.

I think Luthien was the greatest of the Eldar. As many have said, Tolkien placed no conditions on this. He said it was so, and as the author, his word is basically law.

[Maédhros]

He may have had a strong spirit, but in terms of purity it was arguably pretty weak.

In terms of passion, it was unsurpassed.

[Legolas]

What about Luthien's passion for Beren?

[Maédhros]

I believe that is what is called love.

[Legolas]

But you do recognize that love is a type of passion.

How do you contest that Feanor's passion surpasses that of Luthien?

In order to save unnecessary posts, I'll put the follow-up here too...

I was just wondering if that was a personal opinion or if it had a textual reference. No offense intended, nor an implication that you were wrong or right.

[ July 29, 2002: Message edited by: Legalos ]

[Maédhros]

How do you contest that Feanor's passion surpasses that of Luthien?

I don't have a quote from the books that says that.
I would say that Luthien's passion comes from outside, his love for Beren, while Feanor's comes more from within. Althought the silmarils were made of the blended light of the trees.

[Lush]

Lúthien loved Beren, and risked her life for him. Fëanor loved his creations, and, through his creations, he loved himself. I think there is a big difference here. Not in terms of the text, but in terms of my own views on life, Fëanor's passion is impure and misdirected. I don't know...I just don't like the guy. I view him as a bratty emotional weakling. Talented, yes, but whiny and irrational. Like a diva.

[Morgoth Bauglir]

I view him as a bratty emotional weakling. Talented, yes, but whiny and irrational. Like a diva. -Lush

How is he emotional?how is he weak?

[Legolas]

He had very little self control.

Edit: Perhaps he had some and chose not to display it openly.

[ July 30, 2002: Message edited by: Legalos ]

[Elendur]

I dont think you can say he had very little self control. Melkor deceived him and wove lies into his thoughts. How can an elf be expected to be so cunning as to perceive all of Melkors actions? It is like Hurin realizing he had been doing Melkors will after he was released from Thangorodrim only after he had done what Melkor wanted. Do you think Hurin also had little self control after withstanding Melkor for all those years?

Im not saying Feanor was without fault, but not all blame can be placed on him.

[Feanaro]

"I don't think Feanor was the greatest of the Eldar. Not in spirit anyway. He may have had a strong spirit, but in terms of purity it was arguably pretty weak."

Firstly, there's no need to think about it--Fëanor was not the greatest of the Eldar anyway. Secondly, self-control is not an aspect of one's spirit, and thus has no relevancy in determening whether Fëanor had a weak spirit. Thirdly, I have never before seen purity measured in terms of strength or weakness.

"The love of Finwe and Miriel was great indeed, for it began in the Blessed Realm in the Days of Bliss. But in the bearing of her son Miriel was consumed in spirit and body; and after his (Fëanor's) birth she yearned for release from the labour of living. And when she had named him, she said to Finwe: 'Never again shall I bear child; for strength that would have nourished the life of many has gone forth into Fëanor.'"

I think Tolkien was trying to get the image across that Fëanor's spirit was very potent.

[Lush]

Oh, I'm not placing all the blame on Fëanor, I'm just saying that I don't like the guy. And I think that lack of self-control is a weakness of spirit. It has to do with my religious views (which don't belond on a Tolkien forum anyway, but then there you go).

[the phantom]

I don't think Feanor particularly lacked self-control, I just think he was very resolute, didn't want to be anyone's b!%ch, didn't like his father getting killed, and didn't like his creations (which were beyond the reach of the Maia, probably even some of the Ainu) getting stolen by the same guy that corrupted him and killed his father!!!
Put yourself in his shoes. I think you would've gone on a mad revenge quest too. It was all about getting to Melkor. First, the Valar let the evil little rat run around free, secondly, he had robbed Feanor of his greatest treasures, Finwe (his father) and the Silmarils (the greatest things ever made with hands), and lastly, the Valar weren't going after Melkor to take him out. If I was Feanor I would've taken off after him too, and I would've been pretty ticked off if people had said that my actions were whiny, emotional, and impure after all I had been through.
He held a whole multitude of people to his will and even told off a herald of the Valar (who bowed to Feanor after Feanor spoke). He fought all alone at the front of the battlefield, surrounded by balrogs, and never retreated until he was struck down. Doesn't sound weak to me. An emotional weakling would've been cowed by the thought of going out away from protection and trying to take on an unbeatable enemy.
I think he did pretty well considering the most powerful being on earth, Melkor, was trying to destroy and corrupt him.
Feanor had the right idea with not practicing self-control. It wasn't the time for it, it was the time to overthrow Melkor. If the Valar had just gone with Feanor to overthrow Melkor, it wouldn't have been nearly as tough as it was later when they finally got our of their rocking chairs and did it. Feanor was trying to do what he knew had to be done, and wasn't gonna let the Valar or other elves stop him. It's not always time for self control!

(I apologize if I'm coming on too strong, but I'm very passionate about this topic. Since the first time I read Silmarilian, I've sympathized with Feanor, and admired his fire and resolute actions, and I think he did better than any of us would've done in his situation, unless you think it would've been better to sit in Valinor and cry while Melkor takes over the world.)

[Groin Redbeard]

Was Elrond an Eldar?

[William Cloud Hicklin]

Elrond was 9/16 Eldarin by blood. More important though is the fact that he was given the choice and elected to be an Elf.

[Eönwë]

First of all, what is greatness?
If you say potency of spirit, then I think Feanor had a very potent spirit. I seem to recall that when he died it turned his body to ash (obviously related to his name "fiery spirit")

WHy stick to only Eldar?
I mean there were some great elves that were not eldar. I think the non-eldar elves get too neglected in these sorts of things. As an example of one in LOR, I could give you Legolas, or his father Thranduil (who was more in the hobbit)

What about wisdom?
The wisest elf on ME is obiously Cirdan. He is the oldest elf that is not in Valinor and he has suffered many hardships. Not to mention that he gave his ring of power to Gandaf (ALso a sacrifice, might be a sign of greatness).

How does Luthien qualify to be Eldar?
Isn't it a bit strange that a half-elf can wualify as eldar? She is half divine, and her father only becomes Eldar through strange circumstances. Elu Thingol (or ELwe Singollo) is also a SIndar elf, remember that. And she is half MAiar. Anyone achieving demi-godliness is great.

BUt Luthien is not great because of being herself, or an eldar, neither is she geat for anything but her birth. She did not achieve greatness she just is great.
HOw can that be greatness. JUst because your mother is a goddess it shouldn't make you great.

Greatesss depends on what you mean: It could be potency of spirit, nobility of birth, divinity levels, beauty,strebght, warrior skill, crafting, wisdom, cunning, self-sacrifice, etc. Luthien only fits one of these things. Some Eldar fit many more. (I will discuss this in more detail, but it is late here)

[William Cloud Hicklin]

WHy stick to only Eldar?
I mean there were some great elves that were not eldar. I think the non-eldar elves get too neglected in these sorts of things. As an example of one in LOR, I could give you Legolas, or his father Thranduil (who was more in the hobbit)

Sorry, they were both Sindar, and therefore Eldar. Even if Legolas' mother was a Nando- well, the Nandor were Eldar too.

No Avar ever comes in to any of Tolkien's narratives.

[Ghazi]

Originally Posted by obloquy

The greatest of all the Eldar was Luthien Tinuviel. Now this question never has to be asked again!

I disagree as well because Luthien wasn't one of the Eldar. Eldar are those Elves who saw the light of the Two Trees. Luthien is disqualified because even if one considers her an Elf, which I don't, she never saw the Two Trees. I don't consider her an Elf because she was born half Maia, half Elf and died a human. How does that make one an Elf?

[obloquy]

Originally Posted by Ghazi

I disagree as well because Luthien wasn't one of the Eldar. Eldar are those Elves who saw the light of the Two Trees. Luthien is disqualified because even if one considers her an Elf, which I don't, she never saw the Two Trees. I don't consider her an Elf because she was born half Maia, half Elf and died a human. How does that make one an Elf?

Tolkien must not have understood the meaning of the word. Boy, I'm glad we've got such sharp folks around here!

[Ghazi]

Originally Posted by obloquy

Boy, I'm glad we've got such sharp folks around here!

...and us sharp folk are glad that we have people like you around obloquy.