A Measure of Success

[Susan Delgado]

Perhaps we should do away with the list of approved gamers. I know that it was a lot of work to compile, and that it was created to prevent Shirefolk who aren't ready to move on from doing so, but as been previously noted, there are many current Shirefolk who could move on and play in Rohan, but can't because they aren't on the list. It seems to be limiting Rohan's potential.

[Mithadan]

The RPG forum's moderators have hammered out some new rules for the operation of Rohan and The Shire which will be posted shortly. Thank you all for your input!

[Durelin]

Alrighty, I think this thread needs to be used again...

I love RPing here. Love it. So everything I say in criticism is not meant really negatively. Really they're more concerns. I care about the RPing here, and so I have concerns for its longevity. They say (whoever this "they" is), "if it's not broken, don't fix it," but personally, I think it's starting to feel just an itty bit brokey around here...

Anyway, down to business:

My first concern is with getting new gamers involved. The forums have been far from void of this, but it still seems like new gamers and few and far-between. I love writing with all the RPers on here, but we need new faces to keep things moving. I think that it really has become sort of "clique"-like, which was a concern voiced earlier in this thread. To an outsider, I think games don't look like their open. There's been a lot of inviting and "dedicated players" so that the roles are filled up quickly, and the use of "planning threads" where only invited people can post I believe deters people who aren't already established as players from looking into it.

The Inns are great for just jumping in (well, the "Golden Perch" is...the "Eorling Mead Hall" is great, but I don't think it's as good for people just to jump right it, which is understandable as it's the Rohan "inn"), but I do think people get bored. Unfortunately people do tend to get bored rather quickly. Should the RP Forums cater to those people? No, but perhaps things need to be a little more open.

Then there is the "moving up" in the forums. While having the different forums for different levels allows for definite growth and for good writers/RPers to focus their efforts together, it also can have a "reward system" feel to it. Unfortunately, becoming a "Rohan Gamer" and being on the nice, nifty list becomes like a merit badge, and "getting out of the Shire" might well become a goal. At least, it can.

My other major concern deals with the distinction between "Fan-Fiction" and "Roleplaying" which is growing less and less, and which has been an issue I think practically since people started realizing that "Freestyle RPing" was just not working. I agree, trust me. I like fan-fiction, and I think displaying writers here on BD's work as true "fiction" is a wonderful thing, but turning a RPG into a fan-fiction practically before it's even started is an issue for me.

Forum roleplaying is great because it's writing and storytelling. But it's not the same as writing fiction. Roleplaying is about reactions, about being "in-character," not about writing about a character. You are the character. Sounds nerdy...well, I guess it is. The plot must be character driven, which means it must be driven by all the writers. Of course you should have a basic plot, of course a free-for-all is a waste of time, but you can't write a character based on a story. Once you have created the character, they're the ones you're writing the story as.

Writing fiction as a group takes a more cohesive group than roleplaying. Fiction is more definitively planned, and while stories can be character-driven, you're more mindful of the story as a whole. The window which you look through is widened, as writers plan out the path the story will take, and not necessarily just what their character will say or do next. Again, still sounds like fun to me, but it's different.

The story of a fiction becomes someone's or multiple people's baby. There's no way around it. It's not going to be left as open to others as an RPG is.

I wanted to address one game in particular that has me torn. It's probably pretty easy to guess, because it hasn't even started yet...yes, Estelyn's "REB." I love the concept, I really do, and I'd love to be a part of such a parody, and the idea of "cameos" sounds really great (cameos are such fun! though actually I don't think I've ever written one...), but...is that really an RPG?

Yes, of course there will be character interaction between the cameos and the characters Esty plays, but, why are those cameo characters, if they are but cameos? I think they become - and I know this sounds really negative; I'm sorry, it's the only way I can manage to express it - "pawns" to the story. In RPGs, when cameos come into the game is determined by the game manager, and largely cameos have a decided upon "purpose." I don't know if this is quite what "cameos" will be like in this game, but they could well become that even if it's not the intention.

Now, does that mean it's bad? No. But I think it does mean that it's losing a lot of RPG qualities.

A lot about the RPing on BD has lost some RP qualities. In particular is the idea of writing "briefly" for another character. I don't think writing for another character should be allowed at all, and I regret having to do it to carry things along sometimes. So perhaps it should only be allowed when one needs to move the plot along (such as wrapping up a battle, bring a group to a destination, etc.). Also, I must admit I hate "saves." But again, they are good for when the plot needs to be moved along, whether it is because someone needs to get something in before the plot is moved along, or if it is already determined that the post that will fill in the save will move the plot along, having a specific purpose. And I do think "moving the plot along" has become a part of almost every action. I really like having the ability to just sit back and have some character interaction for a while, rather than always just trying to keep events and characters moving. I think it's often difficult to get around all the moving plot. Is it because there is too much plot? And if there is less plot, will that mean it is less interesting to RPers?

I don't know. Maybe the issue really is that things are more "plot-driven" than "character driven." And I think fan-fiction is more the former, while roleplaying is more the latter.

Now, as I said: I love the idea of writing group fan-fiction...but I want to roleplay in roleplaying forums.

No, I don't have any solutions for anything, and if I did, I still probably wouldn't post them until I found out I wasn't crazy, and the only one who sees these problems...which I very well may be.

I do have a wild idea, though - there is a fan-fiction forum, right? And it seems in need of a little more activity? Perhaps an area could be set up for facilitating "group fan-fiction" writing? This might blur the distinctions between RPGs and Fan-Fics even more, but perhaps there is a way to divide them both "physically" and conceptually.

To wrap things up, finally...

1. I have no idea if any of that was coherent. My thoughts are scrambled, and I believe that my concerns for what is going on now and what might develop in the future got mixed up, so...

2. I really, really hope I didn't sound angry or even irritated. I'm more worried, and also very intrigued by what I find when actually taking a step back and looking at the RPing that goes on here.

3. I really don't want to offend anyone, and I am definitely not blaming anyone, nor do I mean to be criticizing anyone. Really. My intention was only to question.

4. Even if this is completely ignored, I will continue RPing here and loving it, as always!

If you did bother reading this...wow, what a los-...I mean, thanks very much for your time.

-Dury

[Estelyn Telcontar]

I did read all of what you wrote, Durelin, and I understand your concerns. As it's my Entish Bow story that prompted your thoughts, I will reply to those. As I am not currently involved in other RPGs, I cannot speak to the other issues.

I have long considered whether or not there was a future for the REB "franchise". There were three possibilities facing me:

1. quitting completely
2. continuing by myself as a fan fiction
3. attempting to achieve something as close as possible to the original RPG concept

1. "The End" was definitely an option, and the second part of the story was finished without plans to carry on. However, there still is a story begging to be told, and I have the impression that there are enough interested readers who would like to see it happen.

2. I first thought of writing further adventures as a fan fiction, since the original writers of several characters vital to the continuing plot are no longer active, and I had their permission to use their characters. However, this would have meant that the third part of what would then become a trilogy would be located somewhere else, thereby losing its connection with the first two parts. I would also then have excluded the influence of other writers, much to the detriment of the story.

3. I wanted continuity, since this was not a completely new story, independent of others. Therefore, after long consideration, I decided that this was the option most appropriate to the story concept.


I know that REB is an exception to several of the principles upon which our RPG system is based. However, the Gondor forum allows for considerable leeway, and exceptions can add to the colorful flavor of storytelling here. It's not like this particular game is taking away writers or space needed elsewhere - there are still plenty of possibilities for newcomers and others to find games in which they can participate.

REB is a parody - not every writer can handle that kind of narrative tone. That's the main reason why I have reserved the right to choose the participants. I have always been open to additional writers who have asked to join and of whom I know that they can write this kind of humor. The cameo idea is there precisely for that. However, I know how quickly other priorities take precedence, and that is why I do not care to struggle with long-time "save" posts and missing authors again.

If other members have new ideas for "genuine" RPGs such as you suggest, more power to them! It would also be nice if someone took interest in reviving the Seventh Star Inn. There's still lots of space left in Gondor...

[Durelin]

I really hope I did not offend. Though, obviously, I probably did, as I know I singled out your game, a continuation of what can probably be described as "your baby." I apologize profusely.

But I didn't mean to tear it down or criticize at all. It probably sounded that way (how many times can I use "probably" in a post? hrmm...), and, again, I apologize. It was meant to be an example of where it seems to me that many people's views of RPGs here in general are going. I have nothing against the idea, nor do I think it is somehow out of place or "doesn't belong" on the forums - but, as you have acknowledged, it is different. But as something new, it will be quite interesting.

I understand your frustrations regarding "waiting" for people, and I have been on both sides of the waiting...unfortunately more often on the making people wait end. I feel terrible when I make people wait, and I get a little irked when I feel like waiting for people is definitely slowing things down. It is not uncommon, really, for a RPG to ultimately slow down to a halt, so approaching a project that is dear to you in a way that will all but insure that will not happen is an excellent idea.

I'm starting to feel I was delusional in much of what I said... Ah well, maybe in a day or two I'll remember what my point was...or not...

[piosenniel]

Let me preface my responses by saying these are my personal biases as an RP’er and are not how I might approach these concerns as a moderator of the RP forums (although, I’ll waffle here, and say I might throw in a few “moderatish” observations).

Originally Posted by Durelin

I love RPing here. Love it. So everything I say in criticism is not meant really negatively. Really they're more concerns. I care about the RPing here, and so I have concerns for its longevity. They say (whoever this "they" is), "if it's not broken, don't fix it," but personally, I think it's starting to feel just an itty bit brokey around here...

I love RP’ing, too. (yesss.....my precious, we knows you do.....who else would be harebrained enough to take on the job of moderator *NOW, PIO......SURELY THAT REMARK IS MEANT TO EXCLUDE CHILD AND RIM AND THE VOICE FROM THE PAST, B.B.)

& along with Dury, I too have hade that creeping sensation that the style of RPG’ing here is changing

Originally Posted by Durelin

My first concern is with getting new gamers involved. The forums have been far from void of this, but it still seems like new gamers and few and far-between. I love writing with all the RPers on here, but we need new faces to keep things moving. I think that it really has become sort of "clique"-like, which was a concern voiced earlier in this thread. To an outsider, I think games don't look like their open. There's been a lot of inviting and "dedicated players" so that the roles are filled up quickly, and the use of "planning threads" where only invited people can post I believe deters people who aren't already established as players from looking into it.

New gamers seem to be less plentiful now than they were in the olden days. (*cue goldeny light here). To be honest, just a few years back we were tripping all over new gamers, eager to play. Speaking as a moderator, now, whose business it is to get players for a game’s roster, I’ve started to rely more and more (insist and prod, even) that game owners shop their game idea about with their friends to see if they can generate interest for some of the Character Roles. Beyond that there’s my job next of advertising the game and PM’ing like heck all the fledging players and those more experienced to see if I can drum up enough interest to fill the rest of the slots. It’s a labor intensive way of getting people interested in a game. And it goes on behind the scenes, so no one knows how many prospective players are contacted and then cajoled, wheedled, whatever needs to be done, to at least have them think they might like to look at the game and perhaps play in it.

Originally Posted by Durelin

The Inns are great for just jumping in (well, the "Golden Perch" is...the "Eorling Mead Hall" is great, but I don't think it's as good for people just to jump right it, which is understandable as it's the Rohan "inn"), but I do think people get bored. Unfortunately people do tend to get bored rather quickly. Should the RP Forums cater to those people? No, but perhaps things need to be a little more open.

I’m really quite unclear here about how you mean the gaming process should be a little more open. As you know, those who want to lead a game can always ask for a planning thread to get a game in shape for approval by the mods. Sometimes the planning threads are closed, so that the game leaders/proposers can work exclusively on the game. It’s always an option to leave the planning thread open.....

Originally Posted by Durelin

Then there is the "moving up" in the forums. While having the different forums for different levels allows for definite growth and for good writers/RPers to focus their efforts together, it also can have a "reward system" feel to it. Unfortunately, becoming a "Rohan Gamer" and being on the nice, nifty list becomes like a merit badge, and "getting out of the Shire" might well become a goal. At least, it can.

I’ve always detested the idea that a gamer “moves up/grows out of” one forum and need abandon the “lower” forum for the “higher/better” forum.

Here’s how I see it:

The Shire is very labor intensive for the moderators. It’s the place where gamers (players & leader/proposers) can get the most assistance from us as they learn to game using the BD process. Some gamers enjoy that sort of hands on approach by management; some after a few games played and run want to try their own skills at managing a character or the running of a game. By the time one is considered by us ready to game in Rohan, I expect them to have a thorough grasp of the rules for gaming. Games are less moderated there (at least that is my expectation, goal, ideal).

Originally Posted by Durelin

My other major concern deals with the distinction between "Fan-Fiction" and "Roleplaying" which is growing less and less, and which has been an issue I think practically since people started realizing that "Freestyle RPing" was just not working. I agree, trust me. I like fan-fiction, and I think displaying writers here on BD's work as true "fiction" is a wonderful thing, but turning a RPG into a fan-fiction practically before it's even started is an issue for me.

Forum roleplaying is great because it's writing and storytelling. But it's not the same as writing fiction. Roleplaying is about reactions, about being "in-character," not about writing about a character. You are the character. Sounds nerdy...well, I guess it is. The plot must be character driven, which means it must be driven by all the writers. Of course you should have a basic plot, of course a free-for-all is a waste of time, but you can't write a character based on a story. Once you have created the character, they're the ones you're writing the story as.

Writing fiction as a group takes a more cohesive group than roleplaying. Fiction is more definitively planned, and while stories can be character-driven, you're more mindful of the story as a whole. The window which you look through is widened, as writers plan out the path the story will take, and not necessarily just what their character will say or do next. Again, still sounds like fun to me, but it's different.

The story of a fiction becomes someone's or multiple people's baby. There's no way around it. It's not going to be left as open to others as an RPG is.

You’ve hit one of my sore points as an RP’er here. I completely agree with you on this. In fact, I find myself withdrawing more from RP’ing here because so many of the games do seem to me to be more like cooperatively written stories than they do Role Playing. There seems to be more of an END GOAL for the games and players in a lot of the games.....& I should narrow this down to me.....I feel like there are too many constraints put on my characters in order to meet the needs of the game in reaching that end goal. To be honest, I like those games where there is some basic location/history/plot starter and the players, through their characters, determine by the course of their writing what happens at the end. This sort of gaming focuses on the individuality of the characters and takes away (a good thing in my opinion) the use of one player’s character by another player to “move the storyline along”. I could rant on for reams about this, but I’ll stop here

& no, you’re not a nerd about this “being the character” approach. That’s what I do with all my characters and heavens-to-betsy I’m no ne..... (yessss, precious......of course you’re not.....despite the section of your closet devoted to Middle-earth outfits.....and that sword.....

Originally Posted by Durelin

I wanted to address one game in particular that has me torn. It's probably pretty easy to guess, because it hasn't even started yet...yes, Estelyn's "REB." I love the concept, I really do, and I'd love to be a part of such a parody, and the idea of "cameos" sounds really great (cameos are such fun! though actually I don't think I've ever written one...), but...is that really an RPG?

Yes, of course there will be character interaction between the cameos and the characters Esty plays, but, why are those cameo characters, if they are but cameos? I think they become - and I know this sounds really negative; I'm sorry, it's the only way I can manage to express it - "pawns" to the story. In RPGs, when cameos come into the game is determined by the game manager, and largely cameos have a decided upon "purpose." I don't know if this is quite what "cameos" will be like in this game, but they could well become that even if it's not the intention.

Now, does that mean it's bad? No. But I think it does mean that it's losing a lot of RPG qualities.

I have to disagree about this game. I think it’s more difficult to write a quality parody RPG. But I think the players have succeeded so far. And I do feel, when I read the game, that it is character driven.

Can’t say what the next installment will be like. We’ll have to wait and see on that.

Originally Posted by Durelin

A lot about the RPing on BD has lost some RP qualities. In particular is the idea of writing "briefly" for another character. I don't think writing for another character should be allowed at all, and I regret having to do it to carry things along sometimes. So perhaps it should only be allowed when one needs to move the plot along (such as wrapping up a battle, bring a group to a destination, etc.). Also, I must admit I hate "saves." But again, they are good for when the plot needs to be moved along, whether it is because someone needs to get something in before the plot is moved along, or if it is already determined that the post that will fill in the save will move the plot along, having a specific purpose. And I do think "moving the plot along" has become a part of almost every action. I really like having the ability to just sit back and have some character interaction for a while, rather than always just trying to keep events and characters moving. I think it's often difficult to get around all the moving plot. Is it because there is too much plot? And if there is less plot, will that mean it is less interesting to RPers?

Another one of my bugaboos --- using another player’s character. And the only time I think it should be done is if the two players have arranged beforehand that one’s character can be written for by the other. I don’t think it right to do it “to move the plot along” and then say “sorry, I used your character a little; tell me if I need to edit”. Geez, I can feel all those players cringing in remembrance of PM’s from me about this”no-no”.

Originally Posted by Durelin

I don't know. Maybe the issue really is that things are more "plot-driven" than "character driven." And I think fan-fiction is more the former, while roleplaying is more the latter.

Now, as I said: I love the idea of writing group fan-fiction...but I want to roleplay in roleplaying forums.

Couldn’t agree with you more.....as a player, that is. On the other hand, as a moderator, there seem to be a number of game proposers/leaders as well as players that really like the idea of plot driven writing.

So what could we do about that? Perhaps a disclaimer of sorts at the start of a discussion thread on how the game’s proposer feels he/she wants the game to be played? That way gamers who don’t relish this sort of writing/playing can opt out of considering the game. Don’t know how this would work. And of course, those proposers who are wanting more character driven games can make their own intentions known.

About the Barrow-Downs Middle-earth Fan Fiction forum(Good gravy, Pio, you’re not about to tell them you’re moderating there, too, are you.....nerd!) ---

Not sure a cooperative fan-fic would work there for me as moderator – it might. I’d have to think about it more. Logistics, time, etc.....

Anyway – thanks for bringing this all up, m’dear! Do keep the thoughts and comments flowing.

~*~ Pio

*her own disclaimer: I am not a loser for having read all this & commented on it.....just mildly obsessive/compulsive