Most Tragic Figure

[Mhoram]

Did we mention the ents? I didn't but they should be on my list.

[ March 31, 2002: Message edited by: Mhoram ]

[Eowyn of Ithilien]

but Gollum was already turning away from light when the Ring was found.

[zifnab]

Ents. Good one Mhoram. Through all the chaos of the world, the Ents still stayed true to their reason of creation. The Shepherds of the Trees.

[ April 01, 2002: Message edited by: zifnab ]

[doug*platypus]

When I first opened this thread I had intended to name Finrod as the Most Tragic Figure. He is (in my opinion) the most noble and gentle of the Noldor who took part in the Kinslaying at Alqualondë. This evil deed was his tragedy, a fatal flaw which was in part his fault, in part the fault of others, and it was the means by which Sauron was able to pierce his disguise and eventually slay him.

However, I am now not sure that Finrod fits comfortably into the definition of a tragic hero. His fatal flaw was perhaps not significant enough; it was not a character trait. Also, his redemption is too complete. He atones so completely that even nassty old Mandos lets him go. He returns again to walk with his father Finarfin in Tirion. In case you can't tell, the deeds of Finrod in the Tale of Beren and Lúthien are now my favourite part of The Silmarillion!

Red said (Dr Suess, anyone?):

How anyone can see anything good in that snivelling little fellow is beyond me! Started evil, ended evil and all evil in between. He'd never make my "tragic" list.

Actually, I don't think there is enough good in Turin for him to make my list either. He was too rash and prideful. Curse or no curse.

I wholeheartedly agree. Going back to the well researched quotes of Mister Underhill, Aristotle advises:

Nor, again, should the downfall of the utter villain be exhibited.

Túrin, villain? Yes. No pity from the platypus for him. Húrin is a different story on the other hand. His only flaw was the pride that did not allow him to embrace Thingol as a friend (the slaying of Mîm was understandable), but most of his woes came from Morgoth, which Aristotle would have considered poor tragedy:

It follows plainly, in the first place, that the change of fortune presented must not be the spectacle of a virtuous man brought from prosperity to adversity: for this moves neither pity nor fear; it merely shocks us.

My list of the Most Tragic Figures:

1. Thingol
2. Maedhros
3. Turgon
4. Thorin Oakenshield
5. Finduilas
6. Boromir

My criteria are firstly how good the character was in the beginning, and secondly how much of an impact their tragedy had on others. Thingol started as one of the most noble and powerful Children of Ilúvatar, but brought about the ruin of his kingdom through greed and haughtiness. Boromir would not have made my list if it had not been for his portrayal in the movies (he was a character that was actually improved by them IMHO). Maglor I have not included, since he seemed to be following more than leading (he was willing to set aside the Oath in the end, if not entirely able). Also he gets extra credit for looking after Elrond and Elros.

[Dininziliel]

1. Frodo & Gollum
2. Beleg & Gwindor

I did a quick & dirty reconnaisance of my previous (and very dusty) classical literature training--which means I did a quick search on the internet & in my big, fat, 30 lb. Webster's 3rd New (actually, not so new ) International Dictionary, which around here is known as the Final Word. According to the definitions given in each of those (very simply--a noble being brought low by situations/fate beyond his/her control), those people fit.

Frodo & Gollum need no discussion.

I always agonize a bit when Beleg & Gwindor appear--they are so noble, heroic, brave, and kind--yet they attach themselves to Turin and are brought to highly ignoble ends. Of the latter two, I'd say Gwindor is the more tragic because, knowing how he would be perceived, he still stood true to what he knew was right.

At any rate, all these characters remained steadfast in their chosen courses to the bitter end, and suffered bitterly for it. True, Frodo was healed in Aman, but before that he suffered greatly.

[Maédhros]

When I first opened this thread I had intended to name Finrod as the Most Tragic Figure. He is (in my opinion) the most noble and gentle of the Noldor who took part in the Kinslaying at Alqualondë. This evil deed was his tragedy, a fatal flaw which was in part his fault, in part the fault of others, and it was the means by which Sauron was able to pierce his disguise and eventually slay him.

Can you provide a quote that states that Finrod took part in the kinslaying at Alqualondë. I had always thought that he didn't take part in that.

According to Aristotle, if I recalled correctly Oedipus Rex is the perfect tragedy. Túrin is of course in many ways very similar to Oedipus. Túrin along with his family has to be one of the greatest tragedies in the legendarium.
Personally, I think that Maeðros is one of the most tragic figures. He took the Oath, and participated in the Kinslaying of Alqualondë, then he repented for the desertion of Fingolfin and waived his right to be the High King of the Ñoldor. He positioned himself in a place where the attack of Morgoth would fall heavily. He was of course hanged for ca. 292 years in Thangorodrim.
One could almost see how the Oath changed him, but the thing that I like about him is that when he took the leadership of the House of Fëanor, before the 2nd and 3rd Kinslaying, he gave the other side the opportunity to surrender the Silmaril. At the end, when he finally regained a Silmaril, IMO, he finally repented of his deeds and threw himself into the fire.

[Angry Hill Troll]

I agree with the nominations on behalf of Maédhros and Túrin, but for me the most tragic figure is Fëanor, and the Valar agree with me on this

And [the Valar] mourned not more for the death of the Trees than for the marring of Fëanor: of all the works of Melkor one of the most evil. For Fëanor was made the mightiest in all parts of body and mind, in valour, in endurance, in beauty, in understanding, in skill, in strength and subtlety alike, of all the children of Ilúvatar, and a bright flame was in him. The works of wonder for the glory of Arda that he might otherwise have wrought only Manwë might in some measure conceive. And it was told by the Vanyar who held vigil with the Valar that when the messengers declared to Manwë the answers of Fëanor to his heralds, Manwë wept and bowed his head.

I think Fëanor fits the mold of a tragic figure by the extent of his fall from greatness, and in his own personality defects playing a critical role in his fall. Certainly his personality and rather complicated family situation made him much more susceptible to Melkor's machinations than any others of the Noldor. For me he seems rather reminiscent of Hamlet (well, except for the indecisiveness) just as Túrin does of Oedipus.