Fanfiction: the definition of Mary-Sue

[Elennar Starfire]

I am writing an original fiction as well, and I want to be sure my main character is not too Sue-ish, even though she can't be a Sue because it's not fanfiction. Anyway, I have been going through the Sue checklist...

-the hero is a girl
Yes, this is true.
-she has an exotic name
Again true, but her name is somewhat important to the plot. I have a reason for her to have an exotic name.
-her eyes, hair or both are an unusual colour
Maybe so, but only if there aren't too many more things checked off on this list. Again, I have a reason.
-the writer’s favourite character falls in love with her
Who is my favorite character...Nope, that's not going to happen!
-she has all the good characteristics the writer would like to have herself
Um, no. She's got a rather bad attitude. I find her quite bratty.
-she has none or very few flaws in her personality: she is kind to everyone, brave, beautiful, sickeningly sweet…
As I just said, she's bratty. She's also a bit of a coward.
-she often has immense supernatural abilities
Nope, none of those.
-everything in the story is centred around her
Well, she is the main character!
-she makes other characters behave uncharacteristically
They can't, as they come from my head. They behave however I want them to.
-she often sings (but not all singers are Mary-Sues)
She can sing when she wants to, but doesn't think she can, therefore doesn't very often.
Do not make her royalty of any type.
I haven't decided yet if she's royalty, but there's a good chance of it.
Do not have her die and have everyone cry over her loss.
Nope, she's not dying!
Tortured pasts are forbidden.
No tortured past.
As are mystery pasts.
Oh dear! Not good! She doesn't know anything about her past...but she doesn't know she doesn't know.

So, that's 3 definate yesses, 6 definate nos, 3 maybes, and 2 non-applicable to original fiction. I guess that makes her not too Sue-ish. Whew!

<font size=1 color=339966>[ 7:25 PM January 31, 2004: Message edited by: Elennar Starfire ]

[Lyta_Underhill]

Good idea, Elennar! The checklist! I had a plotbunnie that hit with a vengeance (and the bad thing is that it is too complicated to write quickly!) and it derailed my comic fiction and now threatens to derail much more. So, here goes with the Sue checklist, just to make sure there's not a danger of putridity in the works...but I seriously doubt it, as the only original characters are touchstones and not the main focus:

-the hero is a girl
No, hero is Pippin

-she has an exotic name
his name is Pippin (Mr. Peregrin Took!)

-her eyes, hair or both are an unusual colour
sea green eyes (oh, is that unusual-I don't think Tolkien specified, so I'll go with the Billy model!); hair is "almost golden"

-the writer’s favourite character falls in love with her

Well, my favorite characters are Frodo and Pippin, so no, Frodo does not fall for Pippin or vice versa

-she has all the good characteristics the writer would like to have herself
Well, yes, I'd love to be like Pippin in some ways!

-she has none or very few flaws in her personality: she is kind to everyone, brave, beautiful, sickeningly sweet…
We all know what Pippin's like!

-she often has immense supernatural abilities
Nope, just a sword of Westernesse and some really cool armor from Gondor! Oh, and he talks to trees...

-everything in the story is centred around her
not exactly, but he is the focus

-she makes other characters behave uncharacteristically
Oh, I hope not!

-she often sings (but not all singers are Mary-Sues)
Sing, Pippin, Sing!!!!

Do not make her royalty of any type.
Not royalty, but will someday be Thain of the Shire and a Counselor of the North Kingdom!

Do not have her die and have everyone cry over her loss.
Not set that far ahead in time!

Tortured pasts are forbidden.
Pippin? Tortured past? Tee hee!

As are mystery pasts.

No more mystery than the parts Tolkien left out for us latecomers to fill in!

Not a Sue.
I suppose I can continue writing now!

Cheers!
Lyta

[Morgul Queen]

I think there are two meanings to Celebrimbor's name, I read in an essay somewhere (I think it may have been one of AC's or Emma's) that the other one is Silver-Counsellor. But that's just me taking a Nuzgul and running with it.

I think there are two meanings to Celebrimbor's name, I read in an essay somewhere (I think it may have been one of AC's or Emma's) that the other one is Silver-Counsellor. But that's just me taking a Nuzgul and running with it.


[EDIT: Estelyn asked me to delete this part of the post, I don't have a homepage, but if you want to read it PM me. Oh, and Esty? Thanks for being nice, you won't believe some of the things that people say to us Assassins!]

[symestreem]

Here is my challenge to all of you. It's quite simple:

Write a fan-fiction story containing a Mary-Sue. Give her oodles of Sueish traits! Pile them on like chocolate! The catch: make her realistic. Or if you prefer, make a Gary-Lou (but still realistic). You don't have to share them, although if you feel like it please do. I suppose I could make a collection site or something. Well, good luck.

[Evisse the Blue]

Cool thread, very educational and fun! I'm all clear now on what's a Mary Sue. Though I dont read much LOTR fic, much less write any, I can tell there's a plague of them out there. Ick! I only just realized that my sister, who's a lotr fic writer (though thankfully never posted anything on the net yet, is an avid Mary Sue writer. Maybe I'll get hold of one of her stories once so I can get a second opionion from you guys, to make sure I don't make false accusations against her. Anyway, her excuse is that she's only 15, and she hasn't written anything so moronic as the "Laura Sue" fic from Ophelia's link. ( )
I went to the library of moria link out of curiosity (I read slash before though not LOTR related) and I must say I was surprised at the quality of some of the stories. Laugh if you will but I thought the Balrog/WK one and the Elrond/Ugluk one were very well done. Don't judge them untill you've read them! Also, I found an Elrond/ Smeagol one in verse, which is just hilarious. I have yet to find the Legolas/Smaug one, though.

Symestreem, as regards your challenge I remember there was a similar one at the henneth annun site (the link to it was already given in this thread), only the requirement was to make them 'well-written', I guess this would include realistic (?) You guys might want to check those out.

Oh, and a question regarding these MS's: If the MS represents the wish fulfillments of the author, sort of an ideal alter ego, why are there so many instances of traumatic past/ present and/or future? What - Is it some sort of death wish?? And should this criterion for a Mary Sue be held so important?

[symestreem]

Tortured pasts are the easiest way to give a Sue emotional complexity. Also an excuse for her to break down crying in a handsome elf/man/tomato's arms. Also, killing off all family members can be an easy way to get them out of the story. Plus, instant sympathy for the Sue, and a reason for her to be "tough girl".

[StarJewel]

Sues...every time I see one, I want to just bay at the moon. It's really a shame how much is out there, because it tends to distract people from finding the really good stories. I write fanfiction, (mainly Silmarillion based) and know firsthand what writing a Sue is like. The thing is, I don't think people who write Sues realize that they are writing them. I very nearly ended up with a Sue-like character, but, thank heaven, someone called me on it. It is very easy to lapse into something like that.

[Morgul Queen]

Silm!Fic? *bows to ye* Is it good? Does it stick to canon? Do I need to kill any of your characters?

[Sapphire_Flame]

Yeah, go get 'em, Morgy! ^ ^

That's a good checklist you put together, Elennar. I may have to apply it to my almost-Sue to try to fix her.

BTW, I have found an interesting article concerning 'Sues. It can be found HERE, along with many other good articles on writing. The fandom she uses for reference is Star Trek, but the ideas are applicable no matter what fandom you're writing in.

Abedithon le,

~*~Aranel~*~

[Encaitare]

I once began writing a Mary-Sue *twitch* it was a *twitch* Legolas/MS fic *grimace* but now I think he's a pansy and realized what I wrote was absolute crap, so I don't have to worry about it anymore! I sent the first part to my friend to read, and she liked it, but I found it horrific and deleted it.

My heroine wasn't *that* perfect, though. She wasn't exceptional in appearance (she was pretty, yes, but not violet-eyed and silver-haired) or the singing type (thank Elbereth!) or magical in any way. She was handy with a sword though. But again, it was crap.

I now try to avoid Mary-Sues at all costs, in reading and in writing. Although, a well-written Sue can actually make a decent fic. But those are incredibly rare! And now, in a show of shameless self-promotion, anyone who wants to read angsty but blissfully Sue-free fiction can find the link to my ff.net account on my BD profile.