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#1 |
Dread Horseman
Join Date: Sep 2000
Location: Behind you!
Posts: 2,744
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The History of LotR - Chapter-by-Chapter Companion
I'm setting this thread up as a companion piece to the Chapter-by-Chapter discussions now taking place in the sub-forum by that name. Some dedicated Tolkienophiles have said that, in addition to the LotR read-through, they will also try to do a read-through of the History of Middle-earth volumes that deal with the writing of LotR:
Vol. 6 - The Return of the Shadow Vol. 7 - The Treason of Isengard Vol. 8 - The War of the Ring Vol. 9 - Sauron Defeated: The End of the Third Age Vol. 12 - The Peoples of Middle-earth The Chapter-by-Chapter discussion welcomes appropriate side-references to HoME, but those who wish to go into greater depth may do so on this thread. |
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#2 | |||
Princess of Skwerlz
Join Date: Jan 2002
Location: where the Sea is eastwards (WtR: 6060 miles)
Posts: 7,500
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I’m reading The Return of the Shadow for the first time and have heard some things about it on other discussions, but I discovered one fact I hadn’t heard before – in his first version of ‘The Long-Expected Party’, Tolkien ends with Bilbo announcing his intention to marry!! That was a real surprise, and I started thinking about the difference it would have made if he had actually done so, and the hero had been one of his descendants.
For one thing, it would have destroyed our discussions on the comparison between the Ring and a relationship with a woman! Had Bilbo not been a bachelor, that theory wouldn’t have worked. I wonder, could that have been – in the back of Tolkien’s mind, even subconscious, perhaps – a reason he changed that? Bilbo married… doesn’t that make a fascinating subject for conjecture?! What kind of wife would he have chosen – a typical homebody Hobbit woman, as opposites often attract each other? Or would he have chosen someone like his mother Belladonna, with an adventurous streak? Would she have gone on his travels with him, even on his last trip to Rivendell? Or would she have died ‘conveniently’ after raising their children? How would she have reacted to the Ring? Would she have seen its inherent danger intuitively, nagged him about it, or tried to use it herself? Or would he have used it to get away when he was tired of listening to her? Perhaps some of those questions occurred to Tolkien and that was his reason for eliminating a wife from Bilbo’s life – it would have been too complicated. The explanation he gives within the context of the first version of Chapter 1 is interesting: Quote:
The explanation of hobbit marriage customs is most amusing! Quote:
Even more interesting – the neighbours chalked up Bilbo’s sudden disappearance (in The Hobbit) to having gone and gotten married! They couldn’t figure out to whom, though, since no one else had disappeared. Quote:
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'Mercy!' cried Gandalf. 'If the giving of information is to be the cure of your inquisitiveness, I shall spend all the rest of my days in answering you. What more do you want to know?' 'The whole history of Middle-earth...' |
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#3 | ||
Deadnight Chanter
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And, I suppose, that is the source of third edition of The Hobbit remark of: Quote:
It looks like Tolkien was mocking himself out ![]()
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Egroeg Ihkhsal - Would you believe in the love at first sight? - Yes I'm certain that it happens all the time! |
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#4 | |
Cryptic Aura
Join Date: May 2002
Posts: 6,003
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I’ll sing his roots off. I’ll sing a wind up and blow leaf and branch away. |
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#5 |
Deadnight Chanter
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Point taken
![]() But Tom Bombadil was not a hobbit, was he? (hush, I don't intend this thread to become another TB battlefield...) Besides, this sentence of 'being absurd', applies to Beren/Luthien, Tuor/Idril and Aragorn/Arwen marriages in a way. For what are hobbits? Mortals, i.e., men. And what are fairies? elves, i.e. immortals. Apart from those specially [Eru] granted unions, the notion is absurd.
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Egroeg Ihkhsal - Would you believe in the love at first sight? - Yes I'm certain that it happens all the time! |
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#6 | |
Illustrious Ulair
Join Date: Aug 2002
Location: In the home of lost causes, and forsaken beliefs, and unpopular names,and impossible loyalties
Posts: 4,240
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Of course, Tolkien made, what, half a dozen attempts to start LotR, & what's significant is that the narrative voice changes subtly with each one, starting out by being as prominent as in the Hobbit, & by the end apparently disappearing.
Paul Edmund Thomas' essay 'Some of Tolkien's narrators' (in Tolkien's Legendarium) is definitely worth reading in full, as he examines Tolkien's use of narrative 'voice', but here's a few qoutes from it: Quote:
Its almost as if we have (in the beginning) half a dozen different accounts, all of which, if the narrator was to be given free reign, would go off in different directions - six different Hobbit sequels, & Tolkien simply makes a choice as to which story he's going to tell us. And it seems as if the determining factor is his decision to write not a sequel to the Hobbit, but the final chapter of the Legendarium. Perhaps that's when it started to become a 'consciously Catholic' work - or at least when the seed was planted. |
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#7 | |||
Illustrious Ulair
Join Date: Aug 2002
Location: In the home of lost causes, and forsaken beliefs, and unpopular names,and impossible loyalties
Posts: 4,240
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What I find interesting is that in the original version Bilbo is 'only' 70 years old. He declares he is (as Estelyn has pointed out) going away to get married - he will have many children, yet the real reason he is going away is that he has no money left. In the second version it is Bilbo himself who was orphaned - his parents drowned in a boating 'accident'. In the third he has already gone & we begin with his son, Bingo, who is still hiding, invisible due to the ring, in a cupboard, laughing at the upheaval caused by the distribution of the gifts. Strangely, while we have a more 'advanced' culture in the Shire - clocks & fountain pens, Lawyers eject Sanch Proudfoot from Bag End, etc, the geography of the Shire seems unknown - the Brandybucks are only vaguely known about.
It seems though that its with the fourth version that Tolkien begins to open up the tale: Quote:
Quote:
The power of the Dragon-curse is also interesting - when did Bilbo become 'cursed' - when he took some of the dragon hoard? Again a link into the LT - with the curse on Glaurung's treasure which eventually brings down Tinwellint (Thingol). Bilbo has no money, so he has to leave home & family to get some - he has no choice. Only Elrond's magic can cure him of the desire. Then the ring - 'you must lose it, or yourself'. And Gandalf tells Bingo that he must disappear(!) - & if he does the 'ring may becheated into letting him follow his father. So is the ring actually preventing bingo from going after Bilbo - Bilbo has to give up the ring in order to leave, & chase after dragon gold, & the only way Bingo can follow is if he 'cheats' the ring into letting him escape. Why would the ring work against the dragon-curse? And finally, we have the recurring theme of the son who has lost his father & wants to go & find him - a theme repeated throughout the Legendarium & in both Lost Road & Notion Club Papers ( & also in Smith, with the lost Grandfather, who has returned to Faery?). Of course, the oddest statement for me is Quote:
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#8 | |
Cryptic Aura
Join Date: May 2002
Posts: 6,003
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Vigo, eh? Talk about life imitating art.
But Semolina and Caramella! Shades of the Entish Bow RPGs here at the Downs. And Willowman! It is intriguing to see Tolkien deciding between 'dragon-longing' and 'ring-lure' and juggling all his ideas. Quote:
This passage where the Hobbits' lack of imagination is mentioned in the context of Bilbo's writing is very intriguing. I wonder how much Tolkien felt that his own ideas of fantasy/the perilous realm were ridiculed by the more staid members of his own academic community. I think of his defense of Beowulf as the stuff of true story and art. Thanks for posting that, davem.
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I’ll sing his roots off. I’ll sing a wind up and blow leaf and branch away. |
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#9 | |||
Princess of Skwerlz
Join Date: Jan 2002
Location: where the Sea is eastwards (WtR: 6060 miles)
Posts: 7,500
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Now that I've finished reading the first chapter of TRotS, I find that Tolkien himself answered some of the questions I asked after reading his first version. In the third version, Bilbo marries a Hobbit woman, but from a far end of the Shire - Primula Brandybuck! He does choose a person who is more adventurous and livelier than most Hobbits, apparently. And she leaves Hobbiton with him, both disappearing together. Primula survives into the next version, but no longer as Bilbo's wife - she becomes Bingo's mother when Bingo is changed, no longer Bilbo's son, but his nephew/cousin.
What I find very interesting in Christopher Tolkien's introduction to the fourth version is this statement: Quote:
Another thing I find highly interesting is the fact that Tolkien gives his heroes mothers who have an adventurous influence on them. Bingo's grandmother is, like Bilbo's mother, one of the remarkable, fabulous Took daughters; by contrast, his father is described as 'quite unimportant'. Quote:
Quote:
One more minor observation that I find amusing - Otho Sackville-Baggins is a lawyer by profession in the fourth version. Does that reflect Tolkien's own attitude toward lawyers, I wonder? I don't remember his profession being mentioned in LotR.
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'Mercy!' cried Gandalf. 'If the giving of information is to be the cure of your inquisitiveness, I shall spend all the rest of my days in answering you. What more do you want to know?' 'The whole history of Middle-earth...' |
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#10 | ||
Corpus Cacophonous
Join Date: Jan 2003
Location: A green and pleasant land
Posts: 8,390
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Please excuse someone who has read little of the HoME series butting in.
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Do you mind? I'm busy doing the fishstick. It's a very delicate state of mind! |
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#11 | |
Stormdancer of Doom
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Esty wrote:
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I'm on the fourth draft (I think) and I am charmed to find that some favorite punchlines came from the first draft. Others were added in in successive drafts. I understand that "it was necessary" that Bilbo's marriage be discarded; but still, the idea of Bingo as Bilbo's son had (for a moment) tremendous charm. It reminded me of Child's point that Frodo, as Bilbo's adopted heir, *was* his adopted-son. More later, I hope... falling behind already...
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...down to the water to see the elves dance and sing upon the midsummer's eve. Last edited by mark12_30; 06-27-2004 at 08:39 PM. |
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#12 | ||||
Spirit of the Lonely Star
Join Date: Mar 2002
Posts: 5,133
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Bb,
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In his earliest notes, the Dark Lord is only identified as the 'Necromancer', following along with the story that had deveoped in The Hobbit. However, the Ring already begins to take on a more direct identity, especially with the mysterious reference to Primula that implies the death of Bingo's mother was somehow connected with the Ring. Here is a more complete quote for you to judge. This comes from the first chapter of Return of the Shadow. The italics and parenthetical expressions are Tolkien's. Quote:
It is only when we get into the third chapter of RS, into the proposed foreward called "Of Gollum and the Ring" that we see the first explicit reference to the 'Lord of the Ring"(in the singular). Yet once again, the Dark Lord is not clearly drawn: the phrase is used only as a means to describe the Black Riders: Quote:
There are a number of passages where Gandalf described how the "Ring-Lord" (that itself is an interesting name!) made the rings and passed them out to ensnare various folk. Yet even here, as in the final form of the book, the Dark Lord is only seen through Gandalf's narration. The name of Sauron has not yet been set down on paper. ******************** On to another topic......as someone who is fond of Hobbits, there is a quote I find fascinating that comes immediately after this. The language sounds straight out of The Hobbit, yet the situation is deadly serious, and the Dark Lord is here referred to in more explicit terms: Quote:
What an intriguing idea! How interesting to identify the uniqueness of a people in this fashion: their lack of a magic ring. Because of this, there is also a hint (at least to me) that the Ring coming to Gollum at this time may not have been wholly an accident! Perhaps the Dark Lord (or the Ring?) had decided it was time to score another point. By contrast, on the very next page, Gandalf goes on to make a reference to the "strange accidents" that govern this particular Ring, a portion I quoted in my last post -- which is surely the first veiled reference to providence. Leave it to Tolkien to imply two different things leading off in different directions! I'm purposely quoting chunks of this so people can see. If you prefer, I'll cut back on the detailed quotes. ************** Hey, talk about foreshadowing! How about the presence of Vigo in the "Fellowship"? ![]()
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Multitasking women are never too busy to vote. Last edited by Child of the 7th Age; 06-27-2004 at 11:33 PM. |
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