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08-09-2002, 02:09 AM | #1 |
Desultory Dwimmerlaik
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Boromir's Death
What did the death of Boromir accomplish, that couldn't be accomplished if he had continued on as a member of the fellowship?
Why was his death necessary to the story line?
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08-09-2002, 04:07 AM | #2 |
Wight
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If he had lived no one would trust him, and he would still want to get the ring as it had got a hold over him.
But his death saved him from having to put up with the pain of constantly wanting the ring. It also in a way saved his soul. He gave up his life to save Merry and Pippin cancelling out the harm he had done by trying to take the ring
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08-09-2002, 04:21 AM | #3 |
Wight
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But Frodo had already left with the ring, would Boromir be that desperate to follow him all over the Emyn Muil to get it? I mean, I don't even think he knew Frodo had left the Fellowship before he died, and would have been left with Aragorn, Legolas and Gimli to clear up the "riddle" Sam and Frodo left. Also, Boromir wanted the ring to save his people, to save the White City. Though terribly misguided, his intentions were true. I think he would have argued to follow Frodo and Sam (once they figured out the 'riddle') but would have also went with Aragorn and co. to save Merry & Pippin. I have often pondered this. I think if Boromir had lived, nothing would have drastically changed, and would have actually been a good help to Aragorn and co. on their rescue mission. In other words, I don't think he had to die. Good topic piosenniel! [img]smilies/biggrin.gif[/img]
[ August 09, 2002: Message edited by: Thinhyandoiel ]
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08-09-2002, 04:32 AM | #4 |
Stonehearted Dwarf Smith
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Does anyone like me think that the pridefull personality that Boromir was would in the end have caused trouble regarding Aragorn taking over the throne of Gondor?
Boromir was, as if not as wise then in temper very much like his father. Denethor didnt give much for Aragorns claims - and there might arise a situation where it came to strife between these to combetants to the throne??? Just thoughts... Cheers
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08-09-2002, 04:39 AM | #5 |
Wight
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Ah! A good point Telchar! Didn't think of that. Another question to be asked, (by me) is could Denethor have been saved if Boromir had been around? And would that have been a good thing (in light of Telchar's insight)? So...now I'm reconsidering, maybe Boromir's death was a bit necessary, and he actually did help in kicking the bucket (with all due respect to Boromir, love the guy, but he would've caused problems, non?).
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In gwidh ristennen, i fae narchannen I lach Anor ed ardhon gwannen Caled veleg, ethuiannen |
08-09-2002, 06:17 AM | #6 |
Spectre of Decay
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It is rather interesting that the people who were most likely to stand in the way of Aragorn's accession conveniently die off during the War of the Ring. This subject is explored to great comic effect in Bored of the Rings, which has been mentioned elsewhere.
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08-09-2002, 06:51 AM | #7 |
Wight
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Boromir may not have needed to die... but that doesn't mean that he can't. When there is fighting, people die... sometimes the author may just put it in without a point. Although, it is interesting to note that every good guy (at least good at some point) who desires the ring (Boromir, Saruman, Denethor) ends up dead.
Also, Boromir accepts Aragorn's leadership of the company, and seems in the end to treat him like the king he is. Maybe this would have changed had they gone to Minas Tirith however. |
08-09-2002, 07:17 AM | #8 |
Spectre of Decay
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That's what I thought: Boromir seems reasonably happy with Aragorn's leadership of the Fellowship, but that's not the same thing as accepting his sovereignty. I've a feeling that once they arrived at Minas Tirith, Denethor would have flatly denied Aragorn's legitimacy and Boromir, like a dutiful son, would have supported him, especially since to do so would be in his own interests. It could have been very messy.
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08-09-2002, 08:32 AM | #9 |
Wight
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Squatter of Amon Rudh what do you think Faramir's reaction would be? Personally, I think he would support his father unless Aragorn's claim was proven to him somehow (maybe Gandalf telling him or something to do with Andruil or something like that). At that point, he would probably support Aragorn.
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08-09-2002, 08:44 AM | #10 |
Spectre of Decay
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Well, it's evident that Gandalf had a lot of influence over Faramir, since it was a bone of contention between both of them and Denethor. The poor fellow would probably have been caught between his mentor and his father; not an enviable position.
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08-09-2002, 08:50 AM | #11 |
Spirit of the Lonely Star
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Pio --
Hey, Pio, you're supposed to be dead, I mean not Barrow-downs dead, but really dead a la our RPG. How can you be posting?? I think there was another underlying reason why Boromir had to die, and that reason why Faramir. Tolkien says in his Letters that this was the character in the LotR whom he identified with most closely. Just as Tolkien and his son Michael had dreams of a great wave coming over an island (Numenor/Atlantis), so did Faramir. In Tolkien's words, "For when Faramir speaks of his private vision of the Great Wave, he speaks for me." p. 232 Tolkien was very fond of Faramir. In one letter, he defends him and Eowyn against criticisms, saying that Faramir was "daunted by his father" and also had a "bossy brother" (i.e. Boromir). "He (i.e. Faramir) had been accustomed to giving way and not giving his own opinions air." For this reason, to let Faramir grow and mature and find happiness, the stern Numenorean chief and the bossy brother had to go. And Tolkien could not have created a beautiful vision of the kingdom of Gondor with its proud king Aragorn, and then pair him with a man like Boromir or even Denethor. In Tolkien's idealized kingdom, such men would not have enough dignity and goodness to fill the position of steward of Gondor. Even if Boromir would have accepted the role of steward, he was too flawed with his inordinate love of battle. Faramir, on the other hand, was much closer to Tolkien's ideal --a gentle man, who loved lore and music and who had enough discernment to read men's minds. It's no coincidence that it was Faramir's men, and no other, who were seen by Frodo rising to "have grace" before their meal, i.e. to remember Numenor and the Blessed West that lay beyond. The book leaves the clear impression that the Ringbearer felt humble and rustic that his own hobbit people did not have such a custom. In a strange way, I have always seen Frodo and Faramir as being somewhat akin to each other in temperament and leanings. One a hobbit and one a man, but both Elf-friends, and sensitive to those things that lay beyond the apparent physical world. As you might guess from this post, Faramir is my favorite human character in LotR. Hope PJ does a good job with him! sharon, the 7th age hobbit [ August 09, 2002: Message edited by: Child of the 7th Age ]
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08-09-2002, 11:10 AM | #12 |
Desultory Dwimmerlaik
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Child - Never mistake the character for the writer!
So, could you say that Boromir was a convenient prop used by Tolkien, an artifice designed to bring out certain aspects of other characters. He was a character never intended to be fully fleshed out and was discarded when he served his purposes.
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Eldest, that’s what I am . . . I knew the dark under the stars when it was fearless - before the Dark Lord came from Outside. |
08-09-2002, 11:29 AM | #13 |
Spectre of Decay
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That's a bit harsh. We just don't get much of a chance to get to know him before he dies.
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08-09-2002, 11:55 AM | #14 | |
Desultory Dwimmerlaik
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Quote:
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Eldest, that’s what I am . . . I knew the dark under the stars when it was fearless - before the Dark Lord came from Outside. |
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08-09-2002, 12:07 PM | #15 |
Spectre of Decay
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That's what I meant: it makes Tolkien sound so ruthlessly calculating about his characters. Boromir's a classic tragic hero: brave, honest and noble, but cursed with a human frailty, namely pride, which, along with the virtue of wanting to save his city, lays him open to the Ring's influence. I think that Tolkien has him die out of mercy: Boromir would never have been able to live with his failure at the Falls.
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08-09-2002, 12:50 PM | #16 |
Shade of Carn Dûm
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Boromir has significance to the readers as well as to the characters. His position wasn't a prop, it was an entire sub-story engineered to illustrate a rather touching sub-moral: repentance and the uttermost sacrifice of one's life.
"No man has greater love than this: that he lay down his life for his friends." -somewhere in the Bible (the chapter and verse has slipped my mind)
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08-09-2002, 01:31 PM | #17 |
Sword of the Spirit
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That's from John 15:13.
I would agree, that Faramir would not be the same character if Boromir had lived. And I don't think Pio's remark was harsh, in that Boromir's character has served it's perpose. But is does tend to make Boromir's character sound simplified. Boromir's relationship with is father and brother is a very intricate and masterful part of the plot.
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08-10-2002, 02:21 AM | #18 |
Pile O'Bones
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IMO- Boromir dies so to further endear him to us. Would we have forgiven him as fully if he still lived, instead of dying nobly while trying to protect Merry and Pippin? With his death, he restored all his good and honest qualities. His last actions are selfless and heroic, and those are the characteristics that endure. In this way, Tolkien allows Boromir to do the damage of causing the break up of the Fellowship, and at the same time lets him repent and attone for his sins.
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08-10-2002, 02:37 AM | #19 | ||
Shade of Carn Dûm
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Quote:
In fact, one of the really important effects of his death on the plot that nobody's yet mentioned is Pippin's enlisting in Denethor's service. He says: Quote:
--Belin Ibaimendi [ August 10, 2002: Message edited by: Belin ]
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08-10-2002, 04:57 AM | #20 | ||
Animated Skeleton
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Quote:
Quote:
I love Boromir - he's so Shakespearian, like in Corialanus. Aragorn and Gandalf are simply heroic characters, but Boromir has to fight within himself to find the courage. Doesn't that make his act of courage all the greater?
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08-10-2002, 06:57 AM | #21 |
Spectre of Decay
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Yes, I suppose that I did get a bit carried away. Mind you, Aragorn's failure is that much less, in that he never sways from the purpose of the Fellowship. I agree with you about Boromir, though: he isn't perfect, but he does his best and that's as much as anyone can do.
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08-10-2002, 09:46 AM | #22 |
Haunting Spirit
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Boromir's death represents imo his ultimate triumph over himself, he has redeemed himself by his selfless defence of the hobbits, his pride is crushed by losing the fight with the orcs, (never mind that he was vastly outnumbered).
He says to Aragorn that he tried to take the ring, and also that Merry and Pippin are taken, 'I have failed' Aragorn's reply is that 'No you have conquered.' implying that Boromir has conquered himself, and overcome his faults. I agree that if he had not died, more problems would have arisen in Minas Tirith, if only that he would have told his father all about the quest and then Denethor would quite likely have looked in his palantir and reavealed, possibly without realising it, the entire plot to Sauron, thus dooming the ringbearers and all the hopes resting upon them. |
08-10-2002, 10:19 AM | #23 | |
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Quote:
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08-10-2002, 06:08 PM | #24 |
Haunting Spirit
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I take your point Kuruhuran, my thoughts don't always come out very well in my typing, you've actually said what I was trying to get across, thanks. [img]smilies/confused.gif[/img]
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08-11-2002, 11:06 AM | #25 |
Animated Skeleton
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I liked Boromir and all, but he was knda stupid. He tried to take the ring and he did help all that much. I would trade him for any elf any day. [img]smilies/wink.gif[/img]
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Durialion the High Elf "I wish the ring had never come to me and this adventure had never happened." Frodo "So do all who live to see these times, but you have to decide what to do when the time comes." Gandalf |
08-11-2002, 12:00 PM | #26 |
Spirit of the Lonely Star
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Durialion --
Boromir "kinda stupid"??? No way. There are many things I might call Boromir, but this is not one of them. We, with the benefit of hindsight, know that the Ring could not be used for any purpose, even an ostensibly good one, since it could only lead to death and destruction. We also have the benefit of hindsight in understanding that Gandalf was not merely a wizard, but a Maia, a member of the hierarchy of Valinor. Boromir would not have clearly understood the first point and probably didn't even have a glimmer about the second. So it was more difficult for him to make a clear judgement about the Ring. sharon, the 7th age hobbit [ August 11, 2002: Message edited by: Child of the 7th Age ]
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08-11-2002, 02:27 PM | #27 |
Spectre of Decay
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Quite right. It's always easy to decide with hindsight
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08-12-2002, 02:23 PM | #28 |
Animated Skeleton
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This is soooo funny. I rewatched the movie and now I think my favorite character is Boromir. He is cool. He gave his life and he pledged his alligence to Aragorn. And I quote "I will follow you anywhere my brother, my commander, my king. I just thought it over he made up for it. he is cool. [img]smilies/rolleyes.gif[/img]
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Durialion the High Elf "I wish the ring had never come to me and this adventure had never happened." Frodo "So do all who live to see these times, but you have to decide what to do when the time comes." Gandalf |
08-13-2002, 12:04 AM | #29 |
Animated Skeleton
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Oh, why didn't they just bring along Glorfindel and leave Boromir in Rivendell? He would have been infinitely more useful.
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08-13-2002, 01:03 PM | #30 |
Pile O'Bones
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If they brought Glorfindel, it wouldnt give the story what it has, and our beloved Boromir. I honestly think Borormir should have lived. Any problems with Aragorn and Minas Tirith would have been taken care of by, probably, Gandalf. I think, in my never humble opionion, that Tolkien killed him off so as to prevent the problem with Aragorn and M.T. By killing Boromir off, he wouldnt have to write more to the story. If Bormoir had lived, I would think that LOTR would be longer then it is. Tolkien killed him off to prevent the story from getting longer. If he hadnt killed Boromir off, ROTK would have been several chapters longer, talking about the fights, ect between Boromir and Aragorn about who rules M.T. So, what have we learned? By killing off Boromir, Tolkien has shortened the story, and got rid of what could have been some very good chapters. So, once again in my never humble opinion, Tolkien killed him off to shorten the story. Now, I do not mean to dis Tolkien in anyway by writing this. Once again: Boromirs Death= Less writing, and a shorter story. Boromir Lives: A much longer story, and more entertaining, becuase Im sure all of use wonder what it would have been like if he lived. Boromirs Death: By eliminating him, he can bring in other characters to take his place. Boromir Lives: The extra characters are not needed, hence it would actually cut down on writing by letting him live. I saw no point in his death. It was just to get rid of him, becuase of any difficulty he would have caused, which is actually very little.
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08-14-2002, 09:54 AM | #31 |
Animated Skeleton
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To be honest, you can't focus on that Boromir not dying would've made the story more interesting and longer; his death did do more than that.
First off, things never would've been the same. If you had it so Merry and Pippin would've been taken because Boromir wasn't around at the time, his character wouldn't have changed; there's no redemption (besides, at the begining of the series when Boromir sees the ring you knew that something bad would come of it). Or if you had it so Aragorn would've been able to heal his wounds (it wouldn't have been instantly mind you), the remainder of the Fellowship would've had to wait for him to recover; and that would really mess up the story. Second, aren't you all forgetting about Faramir?! He's not the exact opposite of Boromir, but he posseses qualities that his brother lacked. If anything, Faramir is the one who proves that not all men are weak and susceptible to the ring (Aragorn doesn't really count; he's the main character, a descendant of Isildur, and his blood hasn't been tainted like Faramir's). If Boromir hadn't died, the character of Faramir would've been diminished (and consequently, all that happened with Denethor) and that would've totally screwed up the story. Could you imagine it back at Minas Tirith, "Hey little bro," "Boromir! You're back!" No, it wouldn't be Tolkien's style... Lastly, Tolkien is known for his bitter-sweet stories. Come on, admit it! You knew ONE of the fellowship was going do die didn't you? |
08-14-2002, 10:03 AM | #32 |
Pile O'Bones
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I could have lived without Legolas. Besides, Boromir would have had redemption anways. He would have plenty chances. Now, Tolkien could have decided to kill him off later, IE The Siege of Gondor. That would have been much better then being shot with three arrows at the river. Boromir being killed by the Witch King: Has a bit more to it then being shot with three arrows.
[ August 14, 2002: Message edited by: Lord Tohlos ]
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Lord Gloth'lier, owner of the mines in the North, and carries the axe that has been passed down through the family. Is a Dwarf. "Elves? Pah! I would rather fight with an army of Orcs then fight with Elves!" |
08-14-2002, 10:19 AM | #33 |
Animated Skeleton
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You could've live without Legolas?! How?! [img]smilies/eek.gif[/img]
Besides, Legolas had to be there, he represented the elves in the fellowship. And would've Boromir gotten redemption? If anything this death isn't demeaning; dying to protect 2 little hobbits while fighting off hundreds of orcs all by himself (what, it said he killed about 20-30 of them?) isn't demeaning. Besides, him against the Witch King would've been very anti-climatic. What was the prophecy/saying? The Witch King couldn't be killed by any man? That's why Eowyn and Merry did it (they're not men) and Gandalf could have (he is an Istari and a super-powerful wizard). I'm not saying that Boromir couldn't have killed him, there's always the chance that the saying wasn't true, but it wouldn't have fit the story too well. |
08-14-2002, 10:26 AM | #34 |
Pile O'Bones
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How can I not live with out Legolas? Im not obsessed with him. I like Gimli more. Borormir being killed by the Witch King, not killing the Witch King. Thats a worthy death. All the Urk-Hai had to do was throw him in a tree, knock him out. Being killed by the Witch King is a death he deserved, not being killed by three arrows. Would you rather get a high kill count and be killed by the Witch King, or kill 20-30 orcs, and then get killed with three arrows?
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Lord Gloth'lier, owner of the mines in the North, and carries the axe that has been passed down through the family. Is a Dwarf. "Elves? Pah! I would rather fight with an army of Orcs then fight with Elves!" |
08-14-2002, 10:35 AM | #35 |
Animated Skeleton
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First off, I'm not obsessed with Legolas. Just gotta clear that.
Second, it wasn't just 3 arrows; that's the movie. And actually, those arrows were huge! But in the book, it doesn't give an exact number, just that Boromir was "pierced by many." Also, how does dying by the Witch King's hand redeem himself? Sure it's a noble feat, but anyone at Minas Tirith would've tried to do it if it was necessary. But Boromir died trying to protect the Hobbits, trying to make up for his mistake. Now lets just say that he did live, and would've gotten to go fight the Witch King. Would've the company trusted him? I don't think so... |
08-14-2002, 10:37 AM | #36 |
Pile O'Bones
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Look: Witch King: Saves Pippin, or Merry, I forget which one, and then is promtly killed, Boromir that is. Now, I would think the Fellowship would understand. If you were placed in the same situation as Boromir, wouldnt you want to use the ring?
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Lord Gloth'lier, owner of the mines in the North, and carries the axe that has been passed down through the family. Is a Dwarf. "Elves? Pah! I would rather fight with an army of Orcs then fight with Elves!" |
08-14-2002, 10:44 AM | #37 |
Animated Skeleton
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You mean, for no good reason the Witch King comes to take Pippin and Merri and Boromir dies fighting him? Actually, yeah, I could live with that. Messes the story up but....meh.
And again, yes, I think the Fellowship would understand. But understanding and trust are 2 different things. But no, I wouldn't want to use the ring if I knew how dangerous it was. I know it would be tough, knowing that your kingdom is in serious jepordy. But if I felt I was being corrupted, I'd ask to leave the Fellowship. |
08-14-2002, 10:46 AM | #38 |
Pile O'Bones
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No, Witch King about to kill the hobit at the SOG, and Boromir stops him. WK kills Boromir. Most people dont relize they are being corrupted by it, in the early stages, anyway.
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Lord Gloth'lier, owner of the mines in the North, and carries the axe that has been passed down through the family. Is a Dwarf. "Elves? Pah! I would rather fight with an army of Orcs then fight with Elves!" |
08-14-2002, 10:49 AM | #39 |
Animated Skeleton
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SOG?
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08-14-2002, 10:50 AM | #40 |
Pile O'Bones
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Seige of Gondor
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Lord Gloth'lier, owner of the mines in the North, and carries the axe that has been passed down through the family. Is a Dwarf. "Elves? Pah! I would rather fight with an army of Orcs then fight with Elves!" |
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