Old English scholar needed; Eomer and Eowyn's salutes - The Barrow-Downs Discussion Forum

Eothain Elfwine · 01-13-2004, 06:08 PM

In TTT, toward the end of "The King of the Golden Hall," Eomer says to Theoden, "Westu Theoden hal!" and later Eowyn says, "Ferthu Theoden hal!" I am guessing that these are in Old English, which was the language that Tolkien drew all of his Rohan names from, and I'm also guessing that they might be a quote from Beowulf or a common (ish) Old English salute, but does anyone know what they mean?

Lalaith · 01-13-2004, 06:15 PM

I'm not an old English scholar - I kind of muddle along. But I'm guessing the first one is "Be thou hale (ie healthy, well) Theoden"
and the second one is "Go/fare thee well, Theoden."
But I would be happy for anyone better versed in old English to correct me if I'm wrong.

Finwe · 01-13-2004, 07:24 PM

I believe you are correct. It may have been a traditional sort of greeting that the Rohirrim used.

littlemanpoet · 01-13-2004, 07:47 PM

I'm the happy owner of Bright's Old English Grammar & Reader, 3rd edition,

From it I've garnered the following out of the glossary:

ferð = mind, soul, spirit
hal = whole, sound
thu = thou or you
West = west (fancy that! [img]smilies/smile.gif[/img])

Though I am no Anglo-Saxon scholar myself, I do like to play around a bit, so thanks for the opportunity! [img]smilies/biggrin.gif[/img]

Regarding "Westu Theoden hal", it could be that, like the Gondorians, the West was used as a metaphor for goodness, blessedness, and so on.

Eowyn's "Ferth Theoden hal!" is more obvious: "Be thou whole in spirit/soul/mind, Theoden!"

So yes, I agree with the educated guesses so far proferred.

For example:

In The Wanderer, line 54 reads, "fleotendra ferð no Þær fela bringeð", which according to the notes, "fleotendra ferð" = minds of the floating ones, which means 'the minds of birds'.

In The Blickling Homily - The End of the World is at hand, line 6 reads in part, "ealle men syn hale and gesunde..." which pretty clearly means, 'all men were hale and sound...'

Thanks for the fun! [img]smilies/smile.gif[/img]

***Sharkû*** · 01-14-2004, 04:09 AM

I don't know Anglo-Saxon, but judging from the little Old High German/Old Saxon, _westu_ is definitely a form of the OE variant of _wesan_, 'to be', whereas _ferþu_ would be related to _faran_, 'go, travel'. I don't see how these are related to _ferð_ or _west_ respectively.

The Squatter of Amon Rûdh · 01-14-2004, 05:29 AM

In which case I presume that Westu Théoden hál means 'Be thee well, Théoden', and Ferthu Théoden hál 'Fare thee well, Théoden'. In more modern terms, wishing Théoden good health and a safe journey respectively.

littlemanpoet · 01-15-2004, 08:29 PM

Thanks for correcting my wild guess, Sharku.

Eothain Elfwine · 01-16-2004, 05:46 PM

Thank you all for your knowledge!

01-13-2004, 06:08 PM	#1
Eothain Elfwine Animated Skeleton Join Date: Jan 2004 Location: Plains of Rohan Posts: 38	Old English scholar needed; Eomer and Eowyn's salutes In TTT, toward the end of "The King of the Golden Hall," Eomer says to Theoden, "Westu Theoden hal!" and later Eowyn says, "Ferthu Theoden hal!" I am guessing that these are in Old English, which was the language that Tolkien drew all of his Rohan names from, and I'm also guessing that they might be a quote from Beowulf or a common (ish) Old English salute, but does anyone know what they mean? __________________ I do not love the bright sword for its sharpness, nor the arrow for its swiftness, nor the warrior for his glory. I love only that which they defend.

01-13-2004, 06:15 PM	#2
Lalaith Blithe Spirit Join Date: Jan 2003 Posts: 2,779	I'm not an old English scholar - I kind of muddle along. But I'm guessing the first one is "Be thou hale (ie healthy, well) Theoden" and the second one is "Go/fare thee well, Theoden." But I would be happy for anyone better versed in old English to correct me if I'm wrong. __________________ Out went the candle, and we were left darkling

01-13-2004, 07:24 PM	#3
Finwe Deathless Sun Join Date: May 2003 Location: The Royal Suite in the Halls of Mandos Posts: 2,609	I believe you are correct. It may have been a traditional sort of greeting that the Rohirrim used. __________________ But Melkor also was there, and he came to the house of Fëanor, and there he slew Finwë King of the Noldor before his doors, and spilled the first blood in the Blessed Realm; for Finwë alone had not fled from the horror of the Dark.

01-14-2004, 05:29 AM	#6
The Squatter of Amon Rûdh Spectre of Decay Join Date: Jan 2002 Location: Bar-en-Danwedh Posts: 2,178	In other words In which case I presume that Westu Théoden hál means 'Be thee well, Théoden', and Ferthu Théoden hál 'Fare thee well, Théoden'. In more modern terms, wishing Théoden good health and a safe journey respectively. __________________ Man kenuva métim' andúne? Last edited by The Squatter of Amon Rûdh; 06-20-2006 at 04:55 AM. Reason: Removed old UBB editing notice

01-16-2004, 05:46 PM	#8
Eothain Elfwine Animated Skeleton Join Date: Jan 2004 Location: Plains of Rohan Posts: 38	Thank you all for your knowledge! __________________ I do not love the bright sword for its sharpness, nor the arrow for its swiftness, nor the warrior for his glory. I love only that which they defend.

01-13-2004, 07:47 PM	#4
littlemanpoet Itinerant Songster Join Date: Jan 2002 Location: The Edge of Faerie Posts: 7,066	I'm the happy owner of Bright's Old English Grammar & Reader, 3rd edition, From it I've garnered the following out of the glossary: ferð = mind, soul, spirit hal = whole, sound thu = thou or you West = west (fancy that! [img]smilies/smile.gif[/img]) Though I am no Anglo-Saxon scholar myself, I do like to play around a bit, so thanks for the opportunity! [img]smilies/biggrin.gif[/img] Regarding "Westu Theoden hal", it could be that, like the Gondorians, the West was used as a metaphor for goodness, blessedness, and so on. Eowyn's "Ferth Theoden hal!" is more obvious: "Be thou whole in spirit/soul/mind, Theoden!" So yes, I agree with the educated guesses so far proferred. For example: In The Wanderer, line 54 reads, "fleotendra ferð no Þær fela bringeð", which according to the notes, "fleotendra ferð" = minds of the floating ones, which means 'the minds of birds'. In The Blickling Homily - The End of the World is at hand, line 6 reads in part, "ealle men syn hale and gesunde..." which pretty clearly means, 'all men were hale and sound...' Thanks for the fun! [img]smilies/smile.gif[/img]

01-14-2004, 04:09 AM	#5
*Sharkû* Hungry Ghoul Join Date: Jun 2000 Posts: 1,719	I don't know Anglo-Saxon, but judging from the little Old High German/Old Saxon, _westu_ is definitely a form of the OE variant of _wesan_, 'to be', whereas _ferþu_ would be related to _faran_, 'go, travel'. I don't see how these are related to _ferð_ or _west_ respectively.

01-15-2004, 08:29 PM	#7
littlemanpoet Itinerant Songster Join Date: Jan 2002 Location: The Edge of Faerie Posts: 7,066	Thanks for correcting my wild guess, Sharku.