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Old 07-11-2003, 10:54 AM   #1
Finwe
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A lot of people assume that the Valar aren't to blame, or that very little blame is attached to them, but that isn't true. The reason they brought the Elves over to Aman in the first place was that they wanted to protect them from Morgoth. They assumed that the Elves were like their children, and needed protection and care.

During the Rebellion of the Noldor, it could be said that the Elves hit adolescence, or at least the Noldor did. All adolescents try to rebel against their parents/guardians in some way or the other, and that was exactly what the Noldor did.
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But Melkor also was there, and he came to the house of Fëanor, and there he slew Finwë King of the Noldor before his doors, and spilled the first blood in the Blessed Realm; for Finwë alone had not fled from the horror of the Dark.
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Old 07-11-2003, 11:44 AM   #2
Amarie of the Vanyar
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A lot of people assume that the Valar aren't to blame, or that very little blame is attached to them, but that isn't true.
Yes, a lot of people, including Tolkien [img]smilies/wink.gif[/img]

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If we speak last of the "folly" of Manwe and the weakness and unwariness of the Valar, let us beware how we judge. In the histories, indeed, we may be amazed and grieved to read how (seemingly) Melkor deceived and cozened others, and how even Manwe appears at times almost a simpleton compared with him: as if a kind but unwise father were treating a wayward child who would assuredly in time perceive the error of his ways. Whereas we, looking on and knowing the outcome, see now that Melkor knew well the error of his ways, but was fixed in them by hate and pride beyond return. He could read the mind of Manwe, for the door was open; but his own mind was false and even if the door seemed open, there were doors of iron within closed for ever.
How otherwise would you have it? Should Manwe and the Valar meet secrecy with subterfuge, treachery with falsehood, lies with more lies? If Melkor would usurp their rights, should they deny his? Can hate overcome hate? Nay, Manwe was wiser; or being ever open to Eru he did His will, which is more than wisdom. He was ever open because he had nothing to conceal, no thought that it was harmful for any to know, if they could comprehend it. Indeed Melkor knew his will without questioning it; and he knew that Manwe was bound by the commands and injunctions of Eru, and would do this or abstain from that in accordance with them, always, even knowing that Melkor would break them as it suited his purpose. Thus the merciless will ever count on mercy, and the liars make use of truth; for if mercy and truth are withheld from the cruel and the lying, they have ceased to be honoured.
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But it is said that not until that hour had such cold thoughts ruled Finrod; for indeed she whom he had loved was Amarië of the Vanyar, and she went not with him into exile.
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Old 07-11-2003, 05:50 PM   #3
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Yes, a lot of people, including Tolkien
Amarië, it think that partly depends on how one interprets "blame". If one means that Manwë is "blameless" because he has not knowingly done anything wrong, that is certainly true. He does, however, make mistakes (albeit honest ones) and does have significant limitations:
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[after the War of the Powers, Melkor] actually kneels before Manwë and surrenders...But also suddenly he has the idea of penetrating the vaunted fastness of Valinor, and ruining it. So he offers to become 'the least of the Valar'...It is this offer which seduces or deludes Manwë--Manwë must be shown to have his own inherent fault (though not sin [Footnote: Every finite creature must have some weakness: that is some inadequacy to deal with some situations. It is not sinful when not willed, and when the creature does his best (even if it is not what should be done) as he sees it--with the conscious intent of serving Eru.]): [Manwë] has become engrossed (partly out of sheer fear of Melkor, partly out of desire to control him) in amendment, healing, re-ordering-- even "keeping the status quo"- to the loss of all creative power, and even to weakness in dealing with difficult and perilous situations. Against the advice of some of the Valar (such as Tulkas) he grants Melkor's prayer.

Morgoth's Ring: Myths Transformed
Part of Manwë's limitation seems to be that he is free from evil. Normally that's a good thing, but in Manwë's case it is to the point that he is incapable of understanding evil, or the actions or motivations of any evil being. Gandalf seems to have a much better grasp of this concept. He is capable of understanding Sauron's behavior and likely course of action, but does not condone it or fall into temptation. Granted, he did have the opportunity to learn first-hand from Manwë's previous experiences.

[ July 11, 2003: Message edited by: Angry Hill Troll ]
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Old 07-12-2003, 04:00 AM   #4
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Angry Troll, I agree with you. Of course I am not saying that the Valar are perfect and never made mistakes. Yet, as you called them, they were 'honest mistakes' [img]smilies/wink.gif[/img]
As Christ said, the chidren of this world are wiser than the children of light [img]smilies/frown.gif[/img]

About your comparison between Manwë and Gandalf, the answer is in the quote you posted in this thread some days ago [img]smilies/wink.gif[/img] :

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Manwë's task and problem was much more difficult than Gandalf's
Myths Transformed; HoME 10, 'Morgoth's Ring'
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But it is said that not until that hour had such cold thoughts ruled Finrod; for indeed she whom he had loved was Amarië of the Vanyar, and she went not with him into exile.
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Old 08-29-2004, 08:55 PM   #5
Feanor of the Peredhil
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As I was flipping through all my old threads (there aren't many, so it went fast), I started to reread this one, and my brother pointed out one of the less obvious possible meanings of the quote I used. Here is my original thread-starting post, to make it easier:

Quote:
Originally Posted by Feanor of the Peredhil
I searched, and found no topics where my question was answered, although I may have over-looked something.

In Chapter 9 (Of the Flight of the Noldor) of the Silm, Feanor "cries bitterly" the following:

"...It may be that I can unlock my
jewels, but never again shall I make
their like; and if I must break them,
I shall break my heart, and I shall
be slain;first of all the Eldar in
Aman"

I am thoroughly confused as to precisely what Feanor means by the statement 'first'. To me, he could mean a number of things, two of which being:

1) that he would be the first to be slain
2) that he considers himself to be the first (best/highest) of the Eldar in Aman

And then Mandos says "Not the first." which could be him pointing out that he's not the first in Aman to die, or Mandos pointing out that Feanor is not the first of the Eldar.

I beg of you all, help me! I hate being confused and reading the Silm for the first time has got me a little messed up.

Fea
Here is my reason for bringing this ancient thread back to life:

By "First of all the Eldar in Aman", is it possible that Feanor is not implying self-importance at all, but rather that he was just the first of the immigrating Elves to set foot on Aman? Meaning... he is simply stating the obvious. He's... punctual. Always the first to do anything, whether setting foot on new land or making jewels of unsurpassed beauty.

My brother says he's the type of Elf who would shove other Elves out of the way just so he could be the first to set foot in Aman. I say my brother is a fool.

Fea
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Old 08-30-2004, 04:53 PM   #6
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he was just the first of the immigrating Elves to set foot on Aman
This couldn't be, as Feanor wasn't among the ambassadors invited by the Valar (his father Finwé was). Feanor was born in Tirion.

Oh, following your brother's logic, maybe he was the first of the Eldar born in Aman? I'm not sure of that.
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Old 08-30-2004, 10:22 PM   #7
Feanor of the Peredhil
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Silmaril

My problem with the Silm is that I read it front to back last summer, and have been reduced to flipping through it occasionally since then. I don't own the book [yet], and usually it takes me a few days after I need it to actually get a hold of it. My question was more along the lines of "Could it be that we were jumping to conclusions about Feanor's arrogance, and that he was simply stating the obvious and we overthought it?"

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Old 08-31-2004, 11:30 AM   #8
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Oh, following your brother's logic, maybe he was the first of the Eldar born in Aman? I'm not sure of that.
I'm at school so I don't have my books, but I remember reading in HoME that Tolkien wanted Feanor to be the first-born of the Eldar. All the older Elves (Finwe, Elwe, etc.) were never born, they just woke up. Tolkien thought that the significance of being the first naturally born Child of Eru in the world would perhaps partly explain his ridiculous potency.

In one of his drafts Feanor was actually born in ME and his mother died by falling off a cliff while the Elves were passing through the Misty Mountains (on their way to Valinor). But Tolkien didn't keep this of course and had Feanor born after the journey's end. I can't remember if the idea of Feanor being the first born stayed intact through this change in the story.
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Old 09-01-2004, 04:40 PM   #9
Feanor of the Peredhil
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Silmaril

Welcome back to the thread, my phan-tasmic friend. I'd never heard this about Feanor's birth. Which volume of HoME is it in? Although that question is somewhat meaningless, as I [very ashamedly] will admit to not having read any of HoME. But I do plan on ordering them through my local library once I have some free time again...

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