Battles of the late Third Age

[Gwaihir the Windlord]

Don't they sort of go together, Saucepans? You generally deploy your forces according to your estimate of the strength of whoever you're going to attack.

But Sauron did do a good job with his vast armies, or would have done, in the sense that they would have conquered Middle-Earth had the Ring not been destroyed. The Free Peoples could fend off his first couple of attacks but not much more.

That's the whole point, isn't it?

[Iarhen]

Are we gonna move on to the next battle or what???? [img]smilies/wink.gif[/img]

[Nilpaurion Felagund]

Wait for Rumil. He'll be here with new material.

[Rumil]

Hi all,

as you can see by my last post, its been a while since this thread was up and running. I didn't guess that when I promised to be back in January that in fact it would be Jan 2005 ! I'm afraid that work and computer problems have meant that I've only lurked and made the odd post last year. Anyway, to those of you who don't remember, this thread started as a means to discuss each of the battles of the LoTR and Hobbit, see page 1 for details.

Our next battle on the list is the First Battle of the Fords of the Isen, 25th February 3019. This is an exceptionally well detailed battle (for Tolkien), covered in Unfinished Tales, as usual though there are some unclear aspects.

The battle was fought between the Rohirrim and the forces of Saruman, this was a prelude to the full-scale invasion of Rohan and was, apparently, fought with one aim in mind -

Saruman had given special orders that Theodred should at all costs be slain

Why so? Well with Theoden sick and under the sway of Grima Wormtongue, Saruman believed that the only two leaders left in Rohan who could endanger his invasion plans were Theodred, the King's son, and Eomer, his nephew. Killing Theodred and discrediting Eomer would paralyse the forces of Rohan, as Wormtongue would then give the orders, potentially allowing Saruman an easy victory.

Understanding the terrain that this battle was fought over is crucial, I suggest that a quick look at the LoTR map will help! The river Isen flowed south from Isengard across the Gap of Rohan. The major crossing place was at the Fords of the Isen, where it became broad and shallow and was split in two by an eyot (small island). However, the river was also bridged at Isengard, so Sarumans forces could advance down the west or east as the fancy took them. Running east-west was the great North Road, which crossed at the fords. As the river banks were steep, the road passed through a narrow cuttting on either side of the river. On the west bank were two earthen forts which the Rohirrim held as a bridgehead and guard against the raids of Dunlendings. A road ran north on the west bank to Isengard and terrain here was open. North of the crossing on the east bank was a low ridge, then rough ground. A number of miles south on the east bank was a small hill.

The weather also had a large part to play, the day was misty, though clearing towards dusk, this allowed Saruman to deploy his orcs without the handicap of bright sunlight and also covered the movements of his troops.

Now for the opposing forces. Theodred and Grimbold had 12 eoreds, (approximately 1440 at 120 men per eored). There was also a force of the levies of Westfold on foot (maybe 800 ??) . Later Elfhelm arrived with a further 4 eored (approx 480). The eored consisted of mounted chain-mail armoured men with shields, lances and swords with light helms, similar to Norman knights. One eored was comprised of mounted bowmen ie. horse-archers. The levies were (judging by Helm's Deep) mostly spearmen, with a small number of bowmen. Probably a proportion were unarmoured, relying only on their shields.

No numbers are mentioned for Sarumans force, though it definitely outnumbered the Rohirrim. On the west side was a large force, this had a vanguard, a force of pikemen (men presumably), wolfriders and orcs. The eastern force was smaller, consisting of Dunlending cavalry, wolfriders, two batallions of Uruk Hai and a large company of armoured men and/or halforcs weilding great axes. I'd imagine that this force was in the region of 3000 strong, while the western force was greater in numbers, maybe 4 to 5000 ?? Saruman's troops carried the symbol of the white hand on their shields.

Theodred was Mashal of the Westmark, and as such was responsible for holding the fords to protect Rohan. He was expecting an invasion by Saruman but not so soon. His scouts reported forces massing on the western side of the river, so he took a powerful force of cavalry (his guard eored, 7 more eoreds and the horse archer eored, in all about 1080 men) to attack them. At the fords he left the levies split between the east and west banks and 3 eored (approx 360).

Theodred rode north about 20 miles, he easily routed Sarumans vanguard - these may have been lightly equipped Dunlending horsemen, wolfriders or simply snagas on foot. He seems to have been impetuous in pursuit, probably leading his guard eored in advance of the rest of his troops. Then he encountered the main force, this consisited of pikemen holding trenches, presumably a ditch and bank type field fortification. Horses are far too sensible to charge into pike blocks over ditches, so, unsurprisingly, Theodred's initial attack was repulsed. He was then in danger of being outflanked by wolfriders etc on his western flank but was able to repel these as his main body of troops arrived. Realising that he could not hope to penetrate the fortification with cavalry, he ordered a retreat to the fords, this was given greater urgency as the mist had cleared for a moment allowing him to spot Saruman's force advancing down the eastern bank of the Isen. Therefore if he didn't get back swiftly he could have been cut off.

When Theodred reached the fords, having been harassed all the way back (Grimbold commanded the rearguard), dusk was drawing in. 50 dismounted cavalry were left on the west bank with the levies in the forts under Grimbold. Theodred and his guard occupied the eyot, while he sent the majority of the cavalry back to the east bank.

Then disaster struck the Rohirrim. Apparently nobody expected Saruman's forces to come down the east bank, and no warning was given of the arrival of Saruman's elite force. This eastern force smashed into the Rohirrim, routed and dipersed them southwards. How was this powerful detachment of Rohirrim, (approx 1200 cavalry and a few hundred foot) defeated so easily? I think the key is in the terrain. The road led from the ford up a narrow cutting, forcing the cavalry to march in a thin column, perhaps only 2 to 4 men wide. The attack was perfectly timed to catch these men as they were in the most vulnerable formation, charged from the side by Dunlending horse, wolfriders (which scared the horses) and Uruk-Hai, they had no chance.

The western end of the ford seems to have held off the attacks of the western force. However, on the east an elite company of heavily armoured men and halforcs weilding battleaxes charged onto the eyot. These may have been around 200 or more strong and surrounded Theodred on a knoll at the centre of the eyot. Although Grimbold charged to the rescue, it was too late as his leader had been struck down.

By now things were looking bad for the Rohirrim, their commander had been killed, two thirds of the army routed and they were surrounded and outnumbered. Elfhelm now arrived to save the day, accompanied by a white standard. He had only 4 eored (about 480 cavalry), but now it was the turn of Saruman's eastern force to be charged while out of formation, many of them had pursued southwards, while the rest were attempting to assault the eyot. Therefore, with their backs to the enemy, the eastern force were routed and the axemen wiped out. Sending two eored into the pursuit, Elfhelm fought his way onto the eyot, in vain striving to save Theodred,

They stooped to lift the body, and found that Theodred still breathed; but he lived only long enough to speak his last words: Let me lie here - to keep the Fords till Eomer comes!

Meanwhile the routed Rohirrim had fled south until, coming to a hill, they prepared to make a last stand. Surprisingly, at a horn signal, the uruk-hai drew off and disappeared into the night. Likewise at the western end of the ford, Saruman's troops drew off. They had failed in their military objective to take the fords, but had succeeded in their political objective to kill Theodred. From Saruman's point of view this was a reasonable outcome, surely the Rohirrim would now be bereft of effective leadership and their king incapable of resisting the invasion. He might not hold the fords, but had showed that they could easily be outflanked, the forces of the White Hand would be back, and in overwhelming numbers to make sure of that! Sadly this was a lesson that Grimbold had not fully appreciated yet.

From the Rohirrim point of view, the battle, while not entirely lost, was a disaster. Their commander was dead, the majority of their forces scattered and their horses lost or exhausted. Tactically they had made errors and been severely mauled. However, strategically, the delay imposed on Saruman had saved Rohan. If Saruman had taken the fords, re-inforced, and invaded Rohan immediately, all would have been lost. Little was he to know that in little more than a week's time Theoden would be re-invigorated, Eomer re-instated and the morale of the Rohirrim boosted by the activities of a certain meddling fool and his three companions, and even in his worst dreams he could not imagine that two hobbits would precipitate the destruction of his army and citadel !

Well there you have it - any thoughts on the composition of Saruman's forces, the tactical mistakes on both sides and the wider significance of the battle? Nilpaurion Felagund suggested above that Saruman should have sent his main strength down the eastern side. I'd tend to agree and also believe that no Rohirrim should have been sent to the western bank. I still can't believe that Grimbold fell into the same trap in the second battle, though we'll discuss that later!

[Nilpaurion Felagund]

So good to see you again!

Anywhen, I have to read the materials again; I forgot most of the details about this battle. But I'll be back.

Vy ze vay, Rumil, do you know where a good detail map of the area concerned could be found? My previous post was made from mere guesswork about the terrain.

[Numenorean]

Good to see you are back Ru, and with a brilliant analysis of this battle and the geography too.

The thing which initially struck me about this clash was that despite the festering schemes and subterfuge of Saruman and Grima, the Rohirrim were still able to offer and put up a vigorous level of mobilisation when the need arose. Given the four years or so of dotage that Théoden endured prior to the attack, credit for this must lay primarily with Théodred and Éomer, though the other Captains of the Rohirrim that get a mention, Grimbold, Elfhelm and Erkenbrand also come across as being highly motivated, well trained and more than able to act upon their own initiative.

The pretext to Sarumans offensive is exactly as Rumil pointed out:

this was a prelude to the full-scale invasion of Rohan and was, apparently, fought with one aim in mind -
Saruman had given special orders that Theodred should at all costs be slain

To this end he deployed a special "company of men or orc-men...ferocious, mail-clad, and armed with axes." I wonder what race this company actually was? Tolkien describes them rather ambiguously as great orc-men in one breath then great axemen in the next, and he holds them distinct from the Uruks who charged down the eastern bank. At any rate these fiendish axe-wielders were successful in that they killed Théodred, but failed in their secondary objective of returning his body to Saruman as "Elfhelm himself...sprang up towards the knoll; and there he found Grimbold fighting two great axemen for possession of Théodreds body. One Elfhelm at once slew, and the other fell before Grimbold."
Then as Rumil states

Surprisingly, at a horn signal, the uruk-hai drew off and disappeared into the night. Likewise at the western end of the ford, Saruman's troops drew off. They had failed in their military objective to take the fords, but had succeeded in their political objective to kill Theodred. From Saruman's point of view this was a reasonable outcome

Reasonable for Saruman in the short term, but in the grand scheme of things it must surely go down as a disasterously missed opportunity for the Wizard. Rohan may well have fallen entirely had the Isengarders pressed on in full force instead of retreating under the assumption that killing the Kings Heir was enough to demoralise the proud Eorlingas.
For the Rohirrim however, I feel the opposite view holds for the outcome. In the short term they were badly beaten, and the loss of Théodred was great, yet if anything their resolve was hardened and their military structure remained intact as Erkenbrand immediately assumed command of the West-mark. All-in-all they were far from defeated, as they never actually withdrew from the west bank or the Fords of Isen, and more importantly still - they never lost hope.

[Tuor of Gondolin]

This is quite an interesting thread. As to maps covering areas of battles in Middle-earth, The Atlas of Middle-earth , by K. W. Fonstad, is useful.

The numbers in Saruman's army are interesting, and perhaps somewhat
inconsistent. It does seem probable that there were 6,000 + in the Battles of the Fords of Isen. So perhaps his withdrawal after killing Theodred was necessary to
regroup and reorganize, since he had just 10,000 + at Helm's Deep. And why
would a Rohirric rout in far western Rohan necessarily have been decisive, given that the basis of a 10, 000 + Rohan force still presumably existed in central and eastern Rohan, and you would think that a considerable portion could have been mustered in the Edoras/Dunharrow area.

Also, a military error is not necessarily the same as a mistake. An example is the failure of General Ewell at Gettysburg to attack Culp's Hill on July 1st. An attack might have taken it, but given the general situation as he knew it
he was probably right to regroup and attack the next day. Similarly, Saruman
and/or his commander (not elephant-man orc ) may have felt it both prudent and militarily correct to withdraw and regroup, although of course that did turn out to be an error.

[Kuruharan]

One wonders why the orcs of Isengard were so stingy with their armor with regard to the Dunlendings. Well, let me rephrase that, them being orcs and all did not make them the most generous of creatures. One wonders why Saruman did not command his orcish smiths to make some armor for the Dunlendings or have them teach the Dunlendings some tricks of the trade. One of the principal weaknesses of the hillmen was their lack of armor, where in other ways they were superior fighters to the orcs. Arming them properly would seem natural. It doesn't seem that Saruman lacked the resources to do so. (Or at least I don't recall any indication of such a lack of resources).

Admittedly, the orcish armor was not the best, but in such cases some armor is better than none at all.

[Tuor of Gondolin]

About the number of Saruman's forces:
While it seems reasonable to think the hobbits understated the numbers (I'd picture 50,000 plus) the 10,000+ figure seems, in the context, fairly authoratative. And it's interesting to note how others fasten on that 10,000
Merry estimate (the movies and also Forstad's atlas). Furthermore, a good case can be made for Saruman having c. 10,000 or so: the limited pool of dunlendings
to draw on, the limited geographical extent of Isengard, the need to keep a form
of secrecy (remember Gandalf being bamboozled). If so, then Saruman did, as
noted above, play a remarkably dangerous game, but , as Gandalf observed,
Sauman's one real chance was to get the Ring. With that, and a strong base and devoted and highly trained army centered on Isengard, he was in a strong position, otherwise---he's toast

I really find UT fascinating, especially, the Battles of the Fords of Isen. So, if
as JRRT opines, Rohan's defense failed conceptually, what should it have done. Given that perhaps the generally preeminent role of cavalry in history is scouting and harassing the enemy, interdicting enemy movement, etc., should Theodred have positioned early warning forces both near Isengard and about the area of the fords, with infantry preparing Helm's Deep?

[The Saucepan Man]

Quick question. Wasn't it the forces bound for Helm's Deep that Merry and Pippin observed? I thought that the Battles of the Fords of Isen had taken place some time before.

[Kuruharan]

The first one had, the second one hadn't.

I find the most curious comment in the account regards the band of Uruk-hai that chased Theodred's riders to the south after the onslaught. The Uruks vanished in the middle of the night and Tolkien made the comment that "It was not until later that they discovered whither the Uruks had gone."

I may be overlooking something very obvious (which is probably most likely) but I can't quite figure out what he means by this. I do have a pet theory though.

A look at the timeline shows that it is possible that this was none other than Mauhur's "lads" who then marched north to meet up with Ugluk. Although how Ugluk knew they were there is a matter for some speculation. It was probably in the plans, but that seems like an overly complex plan relying heavily on happenstance. Of course, then we get to the puzzle of trying to figure out Ugluk's movements, which is a pretty futile exercise. But, then again, it is just a pet theory.

Anyway, a few other general observations.

I find it very curious that Theodred's scouts knew of the Isengarder troop concentrations but failed to discover the prepared positions. That points to some sloppy reconnaissance.

I am still puzzled as to why the eastern garrison broke so easily. The garrison that Theodred had left behind had not moved and should have been in a position to receive an attack.

Also, those riders of Theodred who were driven to the south that I mentioned above had some rudiments of hardiness because not only did they return to the fords after being driven off, they returned expecting to find the enemy in position and they intended to fight!

[Dain]

I wish I'd found this thread sooner, so I'll just have to put in a couple of quick thoughts on a few things.

Going back to Dol Guldur, I never thought of it as a fortress a la Barad Dur or Minas Morgul, but just a creepy tower in the woods (Orthanc-like, I guess). I don't think Sauron really surrounded himself with an army of orcs in his "Necromancer" guise (the debate on what Necromancer meant is in a thread somewhere, I remember). I always thought of it as the classic evil wizard's tower, in the middle of a scary forest, where nobody in their right minds would bother it. I always thought the White Council just came, pretty much by themselves, and used their combined "power" (magic) to make drive Sauron out (his spirit would then slip away--wouldn't need to ride or run, because it's a spirit). I see the wizards, etc, approaching with staves upraised and whatever nasty creatures Sauron has around him, and Sauron himself, just abandoning the dark tower in fear. I don't think there would be much resistence or any conventional battle, but that's just how I saw it.

In general, I wouldn't draw too many conclusions between Tolkien's mythology-based battle accounts and military history. Orcs certainly didn't know Spanish squares, to start with. [img]smilies/wink.gif[/img] Tactics in Tolkien are confined to charges and heroic actions. A comparable era would be anglo-saxon, dark ages england, with shield walls and not much more organization beyond, "kings bodyguard around the king, the rest of you lot, spread out and look mean." Armies didn't get all that organized until the late 15th C anyway, really. In this kind of legendary battle, the presence of a king at the front would mean a hero who would hold back the enemy with his incredible valour (not that Kings didn't fight from the front even in the 15th C), so as well as inspiring his troops, his mere presence would frighten the enemy. There's a completely different set of "rules" that apply here...

Think about the Battle of Five Armies. Thorin and co.'s charge from the gate; 12 Dwarves forcing the Orcs to recoil? Damn straight, because this is fantasy, not reality. Eagle's causing terror, panic and disruption to orc ranks? Yep, and throwing them off cliffs, too. One giant bear winning the whole battle? Absolutely. Tactical organization? Not really.

But that's just what I think. I wouldn't want to stop any of you from having some fun with it! Maybe I took the easy way out because my military history is a bit rusty at this point... [img]smilies/wink.gif[/img]

[Dain]

Why do I never realise when there's more than one page! LOL! Sorry about my massively out-of-date post, there.

You guys have a great project going. I can't help making few comments...

About FingofintheBold's post, Sept 4th: 10*10*6,000=600,000 (ten times more than ten times their match) not 60,000 . That's a lot of orcs... [img]smilies/wink.gif[/img]

About Moria: I don't think Balin's men provoked the Balrog, because it seems to operate separately from the orcs, who I think just gathered (to the beat of drums in the deep!) for a while, and eventually wore down the out-numbered forces of the Dwarves. I don't think Dain was every really mad at Balin, either, he just couldn't afford to give his expedition more support--Balin knew that he was out on a limb, too, I'm sure. The Balrog was drawn to the presence of the ring and Gandalf, maybe--something more worth his attention!

As for the orcs ambushing Gollum's guards: I always figured it was a small raiding party that got lucky. Did they actually capture Gollum or just allow him to get away? I'll have to read up on that...

<font size=1 color=339966>[ 11:58 AM December 18, 2003: Message edited by: Dain ]

[Rumil]

Hi all and welcome to Dain!

As is obvious, I've managed to do very little on this thread in the past month or two, apologies for that, but work, a trip to Italy, the flu and Christmas have all conspired to keep me off the Downs. I expect to be offline well into January too.

In the meantime, please feel free to discuss whatever interests you on the 'Battles' subject. I plan to return sometime in the New Year with the first Battle of the Fords of the Isen, so if anyone has interesting points of view on the Rohirrim and Ssruman's forces, please post them!

Have a Happy Yule!

[Nilpaurion Felagund]

I've decided on preemptive self-defense(a great word from last year... ) and post this before Rumil's wonderful in-depth look on...The First Battle of the Fords of Isen.

Because of Saruman's position, a double envelopment of the Fords of the Fords could be achieved with ease. The problem of his assault was improper disposition of his massive resources. For once the Fords are captured, it would have been impossible for the Navy-less Rohirrim to send reinforcements for the western garrison. Thus, the western army would be safe from any flank or rear attack.

The eastern army is another story. Since it is inside the boundary of Rohan, a force could be sent against it from anywhere, except along the line of the river. If the Rohirrim mustered enough force, they could encircle the troops sent on the east shore(by the forces from the Fords and the newcomers), then destroy the western division with an overwhelming concentration of men.

Had Saruman properly disposed of his forces(with a larger eastern army), he could have repelled Elfhelm's charge, or at least held it off long enough to destroy Théodred's beleaguered men at the Fords.

Later days!
->Elenrod

[King of the North]

I'd have to do some serious thinking to provide a plausable reply to this exceptional thread.