Erm, what's with the princess mistake? - The Barrow-Downs Discussion Forum

Losthuniel · 10-29-2002, 11:27 AM

Upon searching the net for LotR news and such, I've come across many,many articles. They have only one thing in common: they all call Arwen a princess. What the heck is with that? Elrond is LORD of Imladris. Not King, not Prince, Lord, and yet people insist on calling his daughter a princess. Even more annoying is when fanfic writers (who are SUPPOSED to know better) call her royalty. Can someone explain to me why people blindly charge on and call Arwen Your Highness?[ October 29, 2002: Message edited by: Losthuniel ]

LePetitChoux · 10-29-2002, 01:57 PM

No idea, they also seem to FORGET about Legolas' princely status... GRRRRRRRRR!!!

InklingElf · 10-29-2002, 02:20 PM

Heh-those are dissappontingly true ::shrugs::

Arwen Imladris · 10-29-2002, 02:56 PM

Well, in the Bible God is described as Lord, and his son Jesus has been called Prince of Peace so... O.K. not sure where that thought was headed but ya. I can see how Lords could be interpreted as a king so therefore Arwen would be a princess. Maybe she just acts like a princess?

Morquesse · 10-29-2002, 04:28 PM

It is sad, isn't it? Like 90% of articles say that Bilbo is Frodo's uncle! Wrong! He is Frodo's cousin! Maybe they call her royalty because she is the most beautiful elf maiden since Luthien? One could only guess. ~M

DarkRose · 10-29-2002, 04:30 PM

I agree that is is quite frustrating. >=( But, I suppose that the unknowing public (I don't know about the LOTR fans who write fanfic) just falls into that phase of thinking that every young, important, royal-like woman in stories are movies are princesses. I don't think, when the public calls any vital female figures princesses, that they always mean it literally. The word 'princess', I believe, has become more of a type of person or character over the years. Leader, beautiful, graceful, important, strong. All are supposed characteristics of a 'princess'.That's just how I see it.

Losthuniel · 10-29-2002, 05:39 PM

An excellent point, DarkRose. Actually, LePetitChoux, in my experience, the fic writers do remeber Legolas's Princeship, but usually only so their character can marry him and become Princess.

Gayahithwen · 10-30-2002, 07:20 AM

Well, I've seen dozens of Disney pages (ok, I am 16 years old and still like animated heroines. so?) that calls the female heroine for 'princess'. I think (as have been said before) that people like to refer to main female characters as princesses. Or something like that. I'm no authority.

Arwen1858 · 10-30-2002, 01:24 PM

Well, Galadriel is a queen, so Arwen's mother could have been considered a princess, therefore making Arwen one? Maybe?

Diamond18 · 10-30-2002, 01:39 PM

I don't recall Galadriel ever being called a queen. She was the "Lady of the Golden Wood".

Arwen Imladris · 10-30-2002, 03:20 PM

<BLOCKQUOTE>quote:<HR> Well, Galadriel is a queen <HR></BLOCKQUOTE> <BLOCKQUOTE>quote:<HR> I don't recall Galadriel ever being called a queen <HR></BLOCKQUOTE> I am sorry but is this not trajic irony?

Arwen1858 · 10-30-2002, 03:39 PM

I thought she was a queen... but then again, I'm new to Tolkien, so I get a bit confused at times.

Diamond18 · 10-30-2002, 05:09 PM

Aw, Arwen Imladris, I meant "called by Tolkien"! And...you know that don't you?

Dimaldaeon · 10-30-2002, 05:27 PM

I think this confusion may have arisen from the fact that Liv Tyler and Cater Blanchett always refer to themselves as princess and queen. Damn actresses always *************** The rest of this post has been censored as it is really offensive to actresses.

Diamond18 · 10-30-2002, 05:46 PM

One might like an actual quote by either Liv Tyler or Cate Blanchett wherein they refer to themselves as such.

Arwen1858 · 10-31-2002, 12:13 AM

<BLOCKQUOTE>quote:<HR>One might like an actual quote by either Liv Tyler or Cate Blanchett wherein they refer to themselves as such.<HR></BLOCKQUOTE> I know I would. Also, I would like to know the context in which it was said: why did they say it? Arwen

10-31-2002, 01:00 AM

okay i'm new to this forum so sorry if i make a fool of myself. i think Cate Blanchett refers to herself as a Queen in one of her interviews for the TV specials on the DVD. Something like: 'She is the Queen of the Elves and the elves are passing over' Does that help?

Arwen1858 · 10-31-2002, 01:35 AM

Welcome, Feather, and you didn't make a fool of yourself! You don't have to worry about that here! We're all crazy one way or another, so if anything, you might just be thought to be a little insane I'm really new to Tolkien, so I was worried about soinding stupid or ignorant, but most of my questions have been taken very nicely. There are many kind and helpful people here! Have fun being dead!! Arwen

Maikadilwen · 10-31-2002, 09:51 AM

Actually, if you read the Silm. you'll find that:Elrond's father Eärendil is the son of Idril who is daughter of Turgon, (the King of Gondolin), who is the son of Fingolfin, the son of High King Finwë.Elrond's mother is Elwing, daughter of Dior, the son of Lúthien, who is the daughter of King Thingol and Queen Melian of Doriath.Besides that, Galadriel's father is Finarfin, brother to Fingolfin (look above).Which means that Galadriel is cousin to Elrond's Great-Grandfather (Turgon).So I believe you can say they're royal.Too many names? [ October 31, 2002: Message edited by: Maikadilwen ]

Raefindel · 10-31-2002, 11:14 AM

<BLOCKQUOTE>quote:<HR> It is sad, isn't it? Like 90% of articles say that Bilbo is Frodo's uncle! Wrong! He is Frodo's cousin! <HR></BLOCKQUOTE>Actually, Bilbo was both Frodo's cousin and his uncle. They were related on both sides of the family.

busybee · 10-31-2002, 11:39 AM

Like LePetite Choux said in the movie they lose the part with Legolas being a prince....i guess i would become to much info for people who haven't read the book.Also people who have just seen the movie and not read the book will want to know exactly how great the real important people who seem so wise and are constantly being talked about are (Galdriel,Arwen, Elrond)so it just makes it easier for the audience to understand how fabulous they are by comparing them to a Queen/Princess whatever Also the people who write the Fanfiction might not want to go into details and they might not have read the book.[ October 31, 2002: Message edited by: busybee ]

Losthuniel · 10-31-2002, 04:19 PM

In which case they shouldn't be writing.

Arwen Imladris · 10-31-2002, 11:17 PM

<BLOCKQUOTE>quote:<HR> Aw, Arwen Imladris, I meant "called by Tolkien"! And...you know that don't you? <HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

Diamond18 · 11-01-2002, 11:08 AM

Here's something I came across last night:Letter 210, to Forest J. Ackerman c. June 1958 [Tolkien's comments on the proposed film 'treatment' of The Lord of the Rings] <BLOCKQUOTE>quote:<HR> 21. 'A splendid sight. It is the home of Galadriel...an Elvenqueen.' (She is not in fact one.) 'Delicate spires and tiny minarets of Elven-color are cleverly woven into a beautifully designed castle.' I think this deplorable in itself, and in places impertinent. Will [Mr.] Z[immerman] please pay my text some respect, at least in descriptions that are obviously central to the general style and tone of the book! I will in no circumstances accept this treatment of Lorien, even if Z personally prefers 'tiny' fairies and the gimcrack of conventional modern fairy-tales.<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>Yes, I included more than I needed to! but it's a great letter, Letter 210. Very long, and I would assume that anyone who gets a kick out of Bashki will be amused by it.But anyway, it proves that Galadriel is not a queen.[ November 01, 2002: Message edited by: Diamond18 ]

TolkienGurl · 11-02-2002, 08:40 PM

I think people call them Queen and Princess because they either don't know the story, don't care about the story, or are just plain lazy and do not want to explain their importance in Middle-earth. Remember, its Hollywood.

Voralphion · 11-06-2002, 07:26 PM

Although he never took it up, Elrond should have been the High-King of the Noldor in Middle Earth after Gil Galad died. Since Elrond is the eldest remaining decendant of Fingolfin, the High Kingship should have passed to him. This would make Arwen a princess as she is the daughter of a king. As to Galadriel being a queen, unless she and Celeborn are considered king and queen of Lothlorien it is wrong. She could be considered a princess, being the daughter of Finarfin the king of the Noldor in Valinor, but not a queen

Nieninque · 11-09-2002, 07:50 PM

<BLOCKQUOTE>quote:<HR>In which case they shouldn't be writing.<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>Exactly.

VanimaEdhel · 11-10-2002, 04:52 PM

<BLOCKQUOTE>quote:<HR> No idea, they also seem to FORGET about Legolas' princely status... GRRRRRRRRR <HR></BLOCKQUOTE>Actually, in a rejection Lothlorien dialogue, Haldir greets Legolas, referring to him as Legolas Thranduillion, which means "Legolas, son of Thranduil", so: if we know that Thranduil is King, then they are referring to Legolas as a prince!

10-29-2002, 11:27 AM	#1
Losthuniel Shade of Carn Dûm Join Date: Apr 2002 Location: The Helcaraxë- aka Canada Posts: 261	Erm, what's with the princess mistake? Upon searching the net for LotR news and such, I've come across many,many articles. They have only one thing in common: they all call Arwen a princess. What the heck is with that? Elrond is LORD of Imladris. Not King, not Prince, Lord, and yet people insist on calling his daughter a princess. Even more annoying is when fanfic writers (who are SUPPOSED to know better) call her royalty. Can someone explain to me why people blindly charge on and call Arwen Your Highness?<p>[ October 29, 2002: Message edited by: Losthuniel ] __________________ ~* Losthuniel "Lord, what fools these mortals be!" Puck, Shakespeare's A Midsummer Night's Dream Abhorsen's House -- Lirael/Sabriel fanboard

10-29-2002, 01:57 PM	#2
LePetitChoux Vegetable of Doom Join Date: Oct 2002 Location: London Posts: 720	No idea, they also seem to FORGET about Legolas' princely status... GRRRRRRRRR!!! __________________ je suis une bonne odeur

10-29-2002, 02:56 PM	#4
Arwen Imladris Ghost Prince of Cardolan Join Date: Mar 2002 Location: In a box with a fox Posts: 1,347	Well, in the Bible God is described as Lord, and his son Jesus has been called Prince of Peace so... O.K. not sure where that thought was headed but ya. I can see how Lords could be interpreted as a king so therefore Arwen would be a princess. Maybe she just acts like a princess? __________________ "Wake up! Wake up! Wake up, sleepies, we must go, yes, we must go at once."

10-29-2002, 04:28 PM	#5
Morquesse Wight Join Date: May 2002 Location: Past the fields we know.... Posts: 202	It is sad, isn't it? Like 90% of articles say that Bilbo is Frodo's uncle! Wrong! He is Frodo's cousin!<BR>Maybe they call her royalty because she is the most beautiful elf maiden since Luthien? One could only guess. <P>~M __________________ I'm not ashamed to let you know I want this light in me to show. I'm not ashamed to speak the name of Jesus Christ.~Newsboys

10-29-2002, 04:30 PM	#6
DarkRose Wight Join Date: Mar 2002 Location: Sauron's Garden Posts: 157	I agree that is is quite frustrating. >=( But, I suppose that the unknowing public (I don't know about the LOTR fans who write fanfic) just falls into that phase of thinking that every young, important, royal-like woman in stories are movies are princesses. <P>I don't think, when the public calls any vital female figures princesses, that they always mean it literally. The word 'princess', I believe, has become more of a <I>type</I> of person or character over the years. Leader, beautiful, graceful, important, strong. All are supposed characteristics of a 'princess'.<P>That's just how I see it. __________________ "All rivers go to the sea, yet never does the sea become full."

10-29-2002, 02:20 PM	#3
InklingElf Shade of Carn Dûm Join Date: Sep 2002 Posts: 402	Heh-those are dissappontingly true ::shrugs::

10-29-2002, 05:39 PM	#7
Losthuniel Shade of Carn Dûm Join Date: Apr 2002 Location: The Helcaraxë- aka Canada Posts: 261	An excellent point, DarkRose. <P>Actually, LePetitChoux, in my experience, the fic writers do remeber Legolas's Princeship, but usually only so their character can marry him and become Princess. __________________ ~* Losthuniel "Lord, what fools these mortals be!" Puck, Shakespeare's A Midsummer Night's Dream Abhorsen's House -- Lirael/Sabriel fanboard

10-30-2002, 07:20 AM	#8
Gayahithwen Wight Join Date: Dec 2001 Location: The chat-room. Posts: 241	Well, I've seen dozens of Disney pages (ok, I am 16 years old and still like animated heroines. so?) that calls the female heroine for 'princess'. I think (as have been said before) that people like to refer to main female characters as princesses. Or something like that. I'm no authority. __________________ Before you criticize someone, walk a mile in his shoes. That way, if he gets angry, he'll be a mile away - and barefoot.

10-30-2002, 01:24 PM	#9
Arwen1858 Ghost Prince of Cardolan Join Date: Oct 2002 Location: Gondor Posts: 516	Well, Galadriel is a queen, so Arwen's mother could have been considered a princess, therefore making Arwen one? Maybe? __________________ Will Turner: "This is either madness or brilliance." Jack Sparrow: "It's remarkable how often those two traits coincide." ~ Pirates of the Caribbean

10-30-2002, 01:39 PM	#10
Diamond18 Eidolon of a Took Join Date: Sep 2002 Location: my own private fantasy world Posts: 3,460	I don't recall Galadriel ever being called a queen. She was the "Lady of the Golden Wood". __________________ All shall be rather fond of me and suffer from mild depression.

10-30-2002, 03:20 PM	#11
Arwen Imladris Ghost Prince of Cardolan Join Date: Mar 2002 Location: In a box with a fox Posts: 1,347	<BLOCKQUOTE>quote:<HR> Well, Galadriel is a queen <HR></BLOCKQUOTE><BR> <BLOCKQUOTE>quote:<HR> I don't recall Galadriel ever being called a queen <HR></BLOCKQUOTE><BR>I am sorry but is this not <B>trajic irony?</B> __________________ "Wake up! Wake up! Wake up, sleepies, we must go, yes, we must go at once."

10-30-2002, 03:39 PM	#12
Arwen1858 Ghost Prince of Cardolan Join Date: Oct 2002 Location: Gondor Posts: 516	I thought she was a queen... but then again, I'm new to Tolkien, so I get a bit confused at times. __________________ Will Turner: "This is either madness or brilliance." Jack Sparrow: "It's remarkable how often those two traits coincide." ~ Pirates of the Caribbean

10-30-2002, 05:09 PM	#13
Diamond18 Eidolon of a Took Join Date: Sep 2002 Location: my own private fantasy world Posts: 3,460	Aw, Arwen Imladris, I meant "called by Tolkien"! And...you know that don't you? __________________ All shall be rather fond of me and suffer from mild depression.

10-30-2002, 05:27 PM	#14
Dimaldaeon Wight Join Date: May 2002 Location: Ireland & damn proud of it. Posts: 125	I think this confusion may have arisen from the fact that Liv Tyler and Cater Blanchett always refer to themselves as princess and queen. Damn actresses always *************** The rest of this post has been censored as it is really offensive to actresses. __________________ Dear Saddam, Do not disunderestimate me.Yours G.W.Bush You're not drunk if you can still hold onto a blade of grass to stop yourself from falling off the face of the Earth

10-30-2002, 05:46 PM	#15
Diamond18 Eidolon of a Took Join Date: Sep 2002 Location: my own private fantasy world Posts: 3,460	One might like an actual quote by either Liv Tyler or Cate Blanchett wherein they refer to themselves as such. __________________ All shall be rather fond of me and suffer from mild depression.

10-31-2002, 12:13 AM	#16
Arwen1858 Ghost Prince of Cardolan Join Date: Oct 2002 Location: Gondor Posts: 516	<BLOCKQUOTE>quote:<HR>One might like an actual quote by either Liv Tyler or Cate Blanchett wherein they refer to themselves as such.<HR></BLOCKQUOTE><BR>I know I would. Also, I would like to know the context in which it was said: why did they say it?<BR>Arwen __________________ Will Turner: "This is either madness or brilliance." Jack Sparrow: "It's remarkable how often those two traits coincide." ~ Pirates of the Caribbean

10-31-2002, 01:00 AM	#17
Feather Guest Posts: n/a	okay i'm new to this forum so sorry if i make a fool of myself.<BR>i think Cate Blanchett refers to herself as a Queen in one of her interviews for the TV specials on the DVD. Something like:<BR> 'She is the Queen of the Elves and the elves are passing over' <BR>Does that help?

10-31-2002, 01:35 AM	#18
Arwen1858 Ghost Prince of Cardolan Join Date: Oct 2002 Location: Gondor Posts: 516	Welcome, Feather, and you didn't make a fool of yourself! You don't have to worry about that here! We're all crazy one way or another, so if anything, you might just be thought to be a little insane I'm really new to Tolkien, so I was worried about soinding stupid or ignorant, but most of my questions have been taken very nicely. There are many kind and helpful people here! Have fun being dead!! <BR>Arwen __________________ Will Turner: "This is either madness or brilliance." Jack Sparrow: "It's remarkable how often those two traits coincide." ~ Pirates of the Caribbean

10-31-2002, 09:51 AM	#19
Maikadilwen Summoner of Lost Souls Join Date: Mar 2002 Location: At home, with my Strongbow Posts: 521	Actually, if you read the Silm. you'll find that:<P><I>Elrond's</I> father <I>Eärendil</I> is the son of <I>Idril</I> who is daughter of <I>Turgon</I>, (the <B>King</B> of Gondolin), who is the son of <I>Fingolfin</I>, the son of <B>High King </B> <I>Finwë</I>.<P><I>Elrond's</I> mother is <I>Elwing</I>, daughter of <I>Dior</I>, the son of <I>Lúthien</I>, who is the daughter of <B>King</B> <I>Thingol</I> and <B>Queen</B> <I>Melian</I> of Doriath.<P>Besides that, <I>Galadriel's</I> father is <I>Finarfin</I>, brother to <I>Fingolfin</I> (look above).<P>Which means that Galadriel is cousin to Elrond's Great-Grandfather (Turgon).<P>So I believe you can say they're royal.<P>Too many names? <p>[ October 31, 2002: Message edited by: Maikadilwen ] __________________ -"Death borders upon our birth, and our cradle stands in the grave. Our birth is nothing but our death begun."

10-31-2002, 11:14 AM	#20
Raefindel Sword of the Spirit Join Date: Feb 2002 Location: Washington State Posts: 1,313	<BLOCKQUOTE>quote:<HR> It is sad, isn't it? Like 90% of articles say that Bilbo is Frodo's uncle! Wrong! He is Frodo's cousin!<BR><HR></BLOCKQUOTE><P>Actually, Bilbo was both Frodo's cousin and his uncle. They were related on both sides of the family. __________________ Blessed be the Lord my Strength, Who trained my hands for war and my fingers to fight. Psallm 144:1

10-31-2002, 11:39 AM	#21
busybee Haunting Spirit Join Date: Sep 2002 Location: Mirkwood, Lothlorien...dream...actually the middle of nowhere...Mumbai Posts: 89	Like LePetite Choux said in the movie they lose the part with Legolas being a prince....i guess i would become to much info for people who haven't read the book.<P>Also people who have just seen the movie and not read the book will want to know exactly how great the real important people who seem so wise and are constantly being talked about are (Galdriel,Arwen, Elrond)so it just makes it easier for the audience to understand how fabulous they are by comparing them to a Queen/Princess whatever <BR>Also the people who write the Fanfiction might not want to go into details and they might not have read the book.<p>[ October 31, 2002: Message edited by: busybee ] __________________ Pleeze does anyone know of a magical doorway or something to Middle Earth!?!?

10-31-2002, 04:19 PM	#22
Losthuniel Shade of Carn Dûm Join Date: Apr 2002 Location: The Helcaraxë- aka Canada Posts: 261	In which case they shouldn't be writing. __________________ ~* Losthuniel "Lord, what fools these mortals be!" Puck, Shakespeare's A Midsummer Night's Dream Abhorsen's House -- Lirael/Sabriel fanboard

10-31-2002, 11:17 PM	#23
Arwen Imladris Ghost Prince of Cardolan Join Date: Mar 2002 Location: In a box with a fox Posts: 1,347	<BLOCKQUOTE>quote:<HR> Aw, Arwen Imladris, I meant "called by Tolkien"! And...you know that don't you? <HR></BLOCKQUOTE><P> __________________ "Wake up! Wake up! Wake up, sleepies, we must go, yes, we must go at once."

11-01-2002, 11:08 AM	#24
Diamond18 Eidolon of a Took Join Date: Sep 2002 Location: my own private fantasy world Posts: 3,460	Here's something I came across last night:<P>Letter 210, to Forest J. Ackerman c. June 1958<BR>[Tolkien's comments on the proposed film 'treatment' of The Lord of the Rings]<P> <BLOCKQUOTE>quote:<HR> 21. <I>'A splendid sight. It is the home of Galadriel...an Elvenqueen.'</I> (She is not in fact one.) <I>'Delicate spires and tiny minarets of Elven-color are cleverly woven into a beautifully designed castle.'</I> I think this deplorable in itself, and in places impertinent. Will [Mr.] Z[immerman] please pay my text some respect, at least in descriptions that are obviously central to the general style and tone of the book! I will in no circumstances accept this treatment of Lorien, even if Z personally prefers 'tiny' fairies and the gimcrack of conventional modern fairy-tales.<HR></BLOCKQUOTE><P>Yes, I included more than I needed to! but it's a great letter, Letter 210. Very long, and I would assume that anyone who gets a kick out of Bashki will be amused by it.<P>But anyway, it proves that Galadriel is not a queen.<p>[ November 01, 2002: Message edited by: Diamond18 ] __________________ All shall be rather fond of me and suffer from mild depression.

11-02-2002, 08:40 PM	#25
TolkienGurl Ghost Prince of Cardolan Join Date: Sep 2002 Location: Michigan, USA Posts: 637	I think people call them Queen and Princess because they either don't know the story, don't care about the story, or are just plain lazy and do not want to explain their importance in Middle-earth. Remember, its <I>Hollywood</I>. __________________ Hopes fail. An end comes. We have only a little time to wait now. We are lost in ruin and downfall and there is no escape. -Frodo My Livejournal

11-06-2002, 07:26 PM	#26
Voralphion Shade of Carn Dûm Join Date: Sep 2002 Location: Sharkey's End Posts: 267	Although he never took it up, Elrond should have been the High-King of the Noldor in Middle Earth after Gil Galad died. Since Elrond is the eldest remaining decendant of Fingolfin, the High Kingship should have passed to him. This would make Arwen a princess as she is the daughter of a king. As to Galadriel being a queen, unless she and Celeborn are considered king and queen of Lothlorien it is wrong. She could be considered a princess, being the daughter of Finarfin the king of the Noldor in Valinor, but not a queen __________________ His sword was long his lance was keen His shining helm afar was seen The countless stars of heavens field Were mirrored in his silver shield

11-09-2002, 07:50 PM	#27
Nieninque Haunting Spirit Join Date: Oct 2002 Location: East Bight Posts: 67	<BLOCKQUOTE>quote:<HR>In which case they shouldn't be writing.<HR></BLOCKQUOTE><P>Exactly. __________________ ----- Legolas: A red sun rises in the East. Blood has been spilt this night. Aragorn: Goddamn elf's talking to himself again! I'm surrounded by weirdos...

11-10-2002, 04:52 PM	#28
VanimaEdhel Etheral Enchantress Join Date: Feb 2002 Location: Wellesley College! Posts: 1,461	<BLOCKQUOTE>quote:<HR> No idea, they also seem to FORGET about Legolas' princely status... GRRRRRRRRR <HR></BLOCKQUOTE><P>Actually, in a rejection Lothlorien dialogue, Haldir greets Legolas, referring to him as <I>Legolas Thranduillion</I>, which means "Legolas, son of Thranduil", so: if we know that Thranduil is King, then they are referring to Legolas as a prince! __________________ "I think we dream so we don't have to be apart so long. If we're in each others dreams, we can be together all the time." - Hobbes of Calvin and Hobbes