The Arrogance of the Rings - Page 2 - The Barrow-Downs Discussion Forum

**lindil** · 11-24-2002, 03:51 AM

<BLOCKQUOTE>quote:<HR> "Was Radagast good or bad? Did he know what Saruman wanted? What's he going to do later?" It's a diverting thread but would just end up confusing things, especially since Radagast (shades of poor old Glorfindel) never turns up again for the remainder of the story. <HR></BLOCKQUOTE>Not true, radagast comes up again [ or should] when Saruman brags about duping him to Gandalf. His role is very quickly and efficiently explained and [ if the original 30 second exchange at Bree had happened along w/ Gandalf giving Butterman the Letter] we understand why an eagle was sent with tidings.I agree though that the movie [#1 at least] manages rather well to convey the story. But I must say this I noticed a BIG contradiction in PJ saying he wanted to do like JRRT did and have the sense conveyed of untold stories, but then later on in the 'appendices' he says what ever did not move forward the story of the destruction of the ring had ro go. Well which is it?Much of the nobility, depth and grandeur of the Legendarium is that each character, town, king has a history and to see glimpses of these adds much to the story.Now in all fairness I think PJ realises this, I am just criticising his rationalizations of deletions.My main critique is not with Bombadil and others are gone [ although I would have loved to have sen them in the extended version], but with things that were changed for the sake of changing, e.g. The Aragorn ]'turning from that path long ago' non sense. Legolas shouting that Boromir owed Aragorn his allegiance. huh? Instead of focusing on Merry and Pippin planning all along to go with Frodo we get 2 newly fabricated larceny scenes to 'develop' their characters. I really do not see how PJ helped the story along by jettisoning secondary plot lines and adding new secondary plot lines that almost always were blatantly inferior to what he replaced. I won't mention Arwen as that has been well and truly covered again and again, and will doubtless come up again as TTT is shown. She is imo absolutly the weakest link in the FotR film. Liv really does try I will giver her that but playing the descendent of Luthien is just too far out of her depth.[ November 24, 2002: Message edited by: lindil ]

Legolas · 11-24-2002, 01:24 PM

"It would be silly to have Radagast seeking out Gandalf in the Shire and telling him there; that's not the kind of thing Radagast would do."Why? That makes no sense to me - why wouldn't he? He was sent to find Gandalf and give him the important message of the Black Riders. Where would it fit? It would fit before Gandalf tells Frodo that he's going to Orthanc, which was an unnecessary addition.Gandalf expecting that he can make it all the way to Orthanc and back by the time Frodo reaches Bree is retarded. Anyone who looks at a map could tell you that. Thus, the letter would at Bree would've been necessary instead of the silly bit about the pint if they were so pressed for time.

thorondil · 11-24-2002, 03:48 PM

Lindil says: <BLOCKQUOTE>quote:<HR>Oh and gandalf telling Frodo to go to Bree and meet him there while he takes a quick jaunt to Isengard.moves the plotline fwd?Unless you think Isengard is in the Chetwood that is so silly anyone not familiar w/ the tale should be alittle confused.Esp since they give you maps with the DVD!!! <HR></BLOCKQUOTE>Legalos says: <BLOCKQUOTE>quote:<HR>Gandalf expecting that he can make it all the way to Orthanc and back by the time Frodo reaches Bree is retarded. Anyone who looks at a map could tell you that. Thus, the letter would at Bree would've been necessary instead of the silly bit about the pint if they were so pressed for time. <HR></BLOCKQUOTE>Exactly!!

*Varda* · 11-24-2002, 03:58 PM

Well, I defy you all to go and make a better movie. Put Radagast in. Take out any comic value. See how much it appeals to people who haven't read the books then. See if you make enough money to make the movie a success.But you won't make the movie, will you? I find it at least mildly annoying that people sit here at their computers and complain about this and that. The movie has been made. PJ made the changes he felt were right. Most of the stuff you're saying has been repeated a hundred times, it's starting to sound like a broken record. And like it or not, the movie was an immense success. If you don't like it, don't watch it.

thorondil · 11-24-2002, 07:03 PM

Varda says: <BLOCKQUOTE>quote:<HR>I find it at least mildly annoying that people sit here at their computers and complain about this and that. The movie has been made. PJ made the changes he felt were right. Most of the stuff you're saying has been repeated a hundred times, it's starting to sound like a broken record. And like it or not, the movie was an immense success. If you don't like it, don't watch it. <HR></BLOCKQUOTE>The people who defend everything PJ does sound like a broken record to me. It's not a matter of disliking everything about the movie. If you don't like it, don't read it.

thorondil · 11-24-2002, 07:30 PM

I thought about it a bit and had to come back 'cause I didn't want to seem like I was being mean to *Varda*. Varda, one of the best ways I've heard it explained is in another thread.davem says: <BLOCKQUOTE>quote:<HR> I'm not sure its that some people are 'negative' about the movie. What I think is that for those of us who had read & loved the book before the film, it was such an important book that we found it difficult even to see it on the screen - it was almost too deeply personal. The film could never have put each reader's own personal LotR (the one in our head's) on screen, so it would inevitably be 'less' in some way than the LotR in our head's (& heart's). Its NOT a bad film, but its a 'reduction' of the book. it could never be as good as the book. You have to watch it as a movie, & judge it in its own right. Then its a masterpiece. In comparison to the book, as an attempt to render the book on film - which, as Christopher Tolkien has stated, is impossible - its just not anywhere close. <HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

Kalimac · 11-25-2002, 12:00 AM

Legalos and Lindil - first of all, I just want to say I'm not dissing Radagast in any way, but what I didn't make clear was that the way the movie timeline was set makes it difficult to keep him in. I'm not talking about financial considerations or anything like that, but about not building spoilers into the movie. You're right that Radagast could come to Gandalf at Bag End since Saruman sent Radagast out specifically for this purpose, but think of what a spanner that would throw into things; Radagast would tell Gandalf that Saruman wants him, that the Nine are abroad and basically that Evil Walks Again In This Land. And unlike in the book, all this would have to happen JUST BEFORE FRODO SETS OUT, and while Gandalf still has access to him, so to speak, since for purposes of pushing the story forward Frodo leaves almost as soon as Gandalf tells him what the Ring is. Now what happens? First of all, the first appearance of the Nazgul has been severely deflated; it's true that we see them leaving Minas Morgul earlier but that's a very brief shot of them on their horses, and you can't really tell what they are. If Radagast comes rushing up saying "The Nine are abroad", even if he doesn't describe them much, immediately the audience knows that something very nasty is hunting Frodo (and if Gandalf is afraid of them...well...). Secondly, it would make Gandalf's subsequent actions both nonsensical and, one could say, extremely callous. Can you imagine what it would make Gandalf look like, if, after getting the news that the Nine are abroad and that Frodo is in hourly danger of being killed or turned into a wraith, he lets Frodo and Sam just go off with little idea of what they're doing and no protection worth speaking of? Now THAT would be an impossible scene to write. "Well, so long, Frodo. Um, make sure to look behind you frequently." And yes, it is another question as to how Gandalf *gets* there so quickly (that's one heck of a horse he's got, that's all I can say). To be honest, I've wondered the same thing about those pits and machinery around Isengard; the way the movie timeline goes that whole industrial complex seems to have been dug in about four days. Ah well, the physics of Middle Earth are another matter altogether .[ November 25, 2002: Message edited by: Kalimac ]

**lindil** · 11-26-2002, 06:38 AM

Kalimac posted: <BLOCKQUOTE>quote:<HR> Can you imagine what it would make Gandalf look like, if, after getting the news that the Nine are abroad and that Frodo is in hourly danger of being killed or turned into a wraith, he lets Frodo and Sam just go off with little idea of what they're doing and no protection worth speaking of? Now THAT would be an impossible scene to write. "Well, so long, Frodo. Um, make sure to look behind you frequently." <HR></BLOCKQUOTE>But in the book he gets the news at Bree, no more than a hard day or so from bag-end.And he does leave them with no direct help.He hopes they will get the Letter and that Aragorn will look after him.So I find both scenarios [the movie and the idea of Radagast coming to the Shire] less than compelling.As for those who are saying the movie should not be criticized unless we are willing to make our own, come on! I don't have time!!! I am trying to make another Silmarillion! This is a DISCUSSION BOARD, A FORUM. WE ARE HERE TO CRITIQUE, praise, explore, marvel, suggest alternatives, and many other things.I have several times heard this, what to me seems ridiculous defending of PJ's movie to be beyond critique and that I should go away if I don't worship every change. Well I have some bad news for you. I am [God willing] not going away, I am not making a new movie and I am going to see the Two Towers and laud it's greatness and point out it's flaws. And I will do it all right here in this forum! and alot of other folks will too.Please also note, I do not go into every thread and throw a wet blanket on the movie worship party. I was invited to this thread and found debate already underway and joined it. I found it was a good place to express my feelings about the movie. I will not even ask if it is OK with anyone in this thread as I have been posting on the downs before the movie was ever close to being released! I suggest if you do not want to see your beloved movie de-constructed that you could very happily look for a board [ or at least threads] where it is worshipped by all. I am sure they are legion, and I am sure these boards are full of folks who have maybe barely read LotR more than once, and when they have they wonder why the 'book version' of the movie did not follow it closely enough!In case you have not noticed the downs is NOT primarily a Movie site - lots of these exist though, it IS a thinking and creative person's forum dedicated to Tolkien. The Movie is NOT Canon! and shall not be treated as such! now there is a tempting line for a whole new thread!High Quality RPG's A Books discussion section that is equal to any. A revised Silmarillion project.This is not a board where those who do not wish to debate, discuss and argue in a warm and friendly fashion will be comfortable. In case no one noticed The Downs itself and what it represents and what others and myself have put into it over the course of nearly 3 years means way more to me than PJ's movie! I could easily live without the film, even though I enjoy it. The Downs though, that I love. And I will gladly respond over and over to any nonsense suggestions that movie criticism has no place here. [ November 26, 2002: Message edited by: lindil ]

**lindil** · 12-20-2002, 05:38 PM

and if us complaining 'purists' seemed outnumbered before, there seems to be a majority here who now think that PJ way overstepped the bounds he should have given himself.UP!

11-24-2002, 03:51 AM	#41
lindil Seeker of the Straight Path Join Date: Jul 2000 Location: a hidden fastness in Big Valley nor cal Posts: 1,680	<BLOCKQUOTE>quote:<HR> "Was Radagast good or bad? Did he know what Saruman wanted? What's he going to do later?" It's a diverting thread but would just end up confusing things, especially since Radagast (shades of poor old Glorfindel) never turns up again for the remainder of the story. <HR></BLOCKQUOTE><P>Not true, radagast comes up again [ or should] when Saruman brags about duping him to Gandalf. His role is very quickly and efficiently explained and [ if the original 30 second exchange at Bree had happened along w/ Gandalf giving Butterman the Letter] we understand why an eagle was sent with tidings.<P>I agree though that the movie [#1 at least] manages rather well to convey the story. But I must say this I noticed a BIG contradiction in PJ saying he wanted to do like JRRT did and have the sense conveyed of untold stories, but then later on in the 'appendices' he says what ever did not move forward the story of the destruction of the ring had ro go. <P>Well which is it?<P>Much of the nobility, depth and grandeur of the Legendarium is that each character, town, king has a history and to see glimpses of these adds much to the story.<P>Now in all fairness I think PJ realises this, I am just criticising his rationalizations of deletions.<P>My main critique is not with Bombadil and others are gone [ although I would have loved to have sen them in the extended version], but with things that were changed for the sake of changing, e.g. The Aragorn ]'turning from that path long ago' non sense. Legolas shouting that Boromir owed Aragorn his allegiance. huh? <P>Instead of focusing on Merry and Pippin planning all along to go with Frodo we get 2 newly fabricated larceny scenes to 'develop' their characters. <P>I really do not see how PJ helped the story along by jettisoning secondary plot lines and adding new secondary plot lines that almost always were blatantly inferior to what he replaced.<P><BR>I won't mention Arwen as that has been well and truly covered again and again, and will doubtless come up again as TTT is shown. She is imo absolutly the weakest link in the FotR film. Liv really does try I will giver her that but playing the descendent of Luthien is just too far out of her depth.<p>[ November 24, 2002: Message edited by: lindil ] __________________ The dwindling Men of the West would often sit up late into the night exchanging lore & wisdom such as they still possessed that they should not fall back into the mean estate of those who never knew or indeed rebelled against the Light.

11-24-2002, 01:24 PM	#42
Legolas A Northern Soul Join Date: Dec 2001 Location: Valinor Posts: 1,847	"It would be silly to have Radagast seeking out Gandalf in the Shire and telling him there; that's not the kind of thing Radagast would do."<P>Why? That makes no sense to me - why wouldn't he? He was sent to find Gandalf and give him the important message of the Black Riders. Where would it fit? It would fit before Gandalf tells Frodo that he's going to Orthanc, which was an unnecessary addition.<P>Gandalf expecting that he can make it all the way to Orthanc and back by the time Frodo reaches Bree is retarded. Anyone who looks at a map could tell you that. Thus, the letter would at Bree would've been necessary instead of the silly bit about the pint if they were so pressed for time. __________________ ...take counsel with thyself, and remember who and what thou art.

11-24-2002, 03:48 PM	#43
thorondil Haunting Spirit Join Date: Nov 2002 Posts: 53	Lindil says:<P> <BLOCKQUOTE>quote:<HR>Oh and gandalf telling Frodo to go to Bree and meet him there while he takes a quick jaunt to Isengard.<P>moves the plotline fwd?<P>Unless you think Isengard is in the Chetwood that is so silly anyone not familiar w/ the tale should be alittle confused.<P>Esp since they give you maps with the DVD!!!<P> <HR></BLOCKQUOTE><P>Legalos says:<P> <BLOCKQUOTE>quote:<HR>Gandalf expecting that he can make it all the way to Orthanc and back by the time Frodo reaches Bree is retarded. Anyone who looks at a map could tell you that. Thus, the letter would at Bree would've been necessary instead of the silly bit about the pint if they were so pressed for time.<P> <HR></BLOCKQUOTE><P>Exactly!! __________________ only that Part from which he came

11-24-2002, 03:58 PM	#44
Varda Maiden of Tears Join Date: May 2002 Location: Valinor. Posts: 571	Well, I defy you all to go and make a better movie. Put Radagast in. Take out any comic value. See how much it appeals to people who haven't read the books then. See if you make enough money to make the movie a success.<P>But you won't make the movie, will you? I find it at least mildly annoying that people sit here at their computers and complain about this and that. The movie has been made. PJ made the changes he felt were right. Most of the stuff you're saying has been repeated a hundred times, it's starting to sound like a broken record. And like it or not, the movie was an immense success. <P>If you don't like it, don't watch it. __________________ 'It must often be so, Sam, when things are in danger: someone has to give them up, lose them, so that others may keep them' ~Frodo "Life is hard. After all, it kills you." - Katharine Hepburn

11-24-2002, 07:03 PM	#45
thorondil Haunting Spirit Join Date: Nov 2002 Posts: 53	Varda says:<P> <BLOCKQUOTE>quote:<HR>I find it at least mildly annoying that people sit here at their computers and complain about this and that. The movie has been made. PJ made the changes he felt were right. Most of the stuff you're saying has been repeated a hundred times, it's starting to sound like a broken record. And like it or not, the movie was an immense success. <P>If you don't like it, don't watch it.<P> <HR></BLOCKQUOTE><P>The people who defend everything PJ does sound like a broken record to me. It's not a matter of disliking <I>everything</I> about the movie. If you don't like it, don't read it. __________________ only that Part from which he came

11-24-2002, 07:30 PM	#46
thorondil Haunting Spirit Join Date: Nov 2002 Posts: 53	I thought about it a bit and had to come back 'cause I didn't want to seem like I was being mean to Varda. <P> <P>Varda, one of the best ways I've heard it explained is in another thread.<P>davem says:<P> <BLOCKQUOTE>quote:<HR> I'm not sure its that some people are 'negative' about the movie. What I think is that for those of us who had read & loved the book before the film, it was such an important book that we found it difficult even to see it on the screen - it was almost too deeply personal. The film could never have put each reader's own personal LotR (the one in our head's) on screen, so it would inevitably be 'less' in some way than the LotR in our head's (& heart's). Its NOT a bad film, but its a 'reduction' of the book. it could never be as good as the book. You have to watch it as a movie, & judge it in its own right. Then its a masterpiece. In comparison to the book, as an attempt to render the book on film - which, as Christopher Tolkien has stated, is impossible - its just not anywhere close. <HR></BLOCKQUOTE> __________________ only that Part from which he came

11-25-2002, 12:00 AM	#47
Kalimac Candle of the Marshes Join Date: Mar 2002 Location: Flyover Country Posts: 780	Legalos and Lindil - first of all, I just want to say I'm not dissing Radagast in any way, but what I didn't make clear was that the way the movie timeline was set makes it difficult to keep him in. I'm not talking about financial considerations or anything like that, but about not building spoilers into the movie. You're right that Radagast could come to Gandalf at Bag End since Saruman sent Radagast out specifically for this purpose, but think of what a spanner that would throw into things; Radagast would tell Gandalf that Saruman wants him, that the Nine are abroad and basically that Evil Walks Again In This Land. And unlike in the book, all this would have to happen JUST BEFORE FRODO SETS OUT, and while Gandalf still has access to him, so to speak, since for purposes of pushing the story forward Frodo leaves almost as soon as Gandalf tells him what the Ring is. <P>Now what happens? First of all, the first appearance of the Nazgul has been severely deflated; it's true that we see them leaving Minas Morgul earlier but that's a very brief shot of them on their horses, and you can't really tell what they are. If Radagast comes rushing up saying "The Nine are abroad", even if he doesn't describe them much, immediately the audience knows that something very nasty is hunting Frodo (and if Gandalf is afraid of them...well...). Secondly, it would make Gandalf's subsequent actions both nonsensical and, one could say, extremely callous. Can you imagine what it would make Gandalf look like, if, after getting the news that the Nine are abroad and that Frodo is in hourly danger of being killed or turned into a wraith, he lets Frodo and Sam just go off with little idea of what they're doing and no protection worth speaking of? Now THAT would be an impossible scene to write. "Well, so long, Frodo. Um, make sure to look behind you frequently." <P>And yes, it is another question as to how Gandalf gets there so quickly (that's one heck of a horse he's got, that's all I can say). To be honest, I've wondered the same thing about those pits and machinery around Isengard; the way the movie timeline goes that whole industrial complex seems to have been dug in about four days. Ah well, the physics of Middle Earth are another matter altogether .<p>[ November 25, 2002: Message edited by: Kalimac ] __________________ Father, dear Father, if you see fit, We'll send my love to college for one year yet Tie blue ribbons all about his head, To let the ladies know that he's married.

11-26-2002, 06:38 AM	#48
lindil Seeker of the Straight Path Join Date: Jul 2000 Location: a hidden fastness in Big Valley nor cal Posts: 1,680	Kalimac posted: <BR> <BLOCKQUOTE>quote:<HR> Can you imagine what it would make Gandalf look like, if, after getting the news that the Nine are abroad and that Frodo is in hourly danger of being killed or turned into a wraith, he lets Frodo and Sam just go off with little idea of what they're doing and no protection worth speaking of? Now THAT would be an impossible scene to write. "Well, so long, Frodo. Um, make sure to look behind you frequently." <BR> <HR></BLOCKQUOTE><P>But in the book he gets the news at Bree, no more than a hard day or so from bag-end.<P>And he does leave them with no direct help.<P>He <I>hopes</I> they will get the Letter and that Aragorn will look after him.<P>So I find both scenarios [the movie and the idea of Radagast coming to the Shire] less than compelling.<P>As for those who are saying the movie should not be criticized unless we are willing to make our own, come on! I don't have time!!! I am trying to make another Silmarillion! <P>This is a DISCUSSION BOARD, A FORUM.<BR>WE ARE HERE TO CRITIQUE, praise, explore, marvel, suggest alternatives, and many other things.<P>I have several times heard this, what to me seems ridiculous defending of PJ's movie to be beyond critique and that I should go away if I don't worship every change. <P>Well I have some bad news for you. I am [God willing] not going away, I am not making a new movie and I am going to see the Two Towers and laud it's greatness and point out it's flaws. And I will do it all right here in this forum! and alot of other folks will too.<P>Please also note, I do not go into every thread and throw a wet blanket on the movie worship party. I was invited to this thread and found debate already underway and joined it. I found it was a good place to express my feelings about the movie. I will not even ask if it is OK with anyone in this thread as I have been posting on the downs before the movie was ever close to being released!<P><BR>I suggest if you do not want to see your beloved movie de-constructed that you could very happily look for a board [ or at least threads] where it is worshipped by all. I am sure they are legion, and I am sure these boards are full of folks who have maybe barely read LotR more than once, and when they have they wonder why the 'book version' of the movie did not follow it closely enough!<P>In case you have not noticed the downs is NOT primarily a Movie site - lots of these exist though, it IS a thinking and creative person's forum dedicated to Tolkien.<P><B> The Movie is NOT Canon! and shall not be treated as such!</B> now there is a tempting line for a whole new thread!<P>High Quality RPG's <BR>A Books discussion section that is equal to any.<BR>A revised Silmarillion project.<P>This is not a board where those who do not wish to debate, discuss and argue in a warm and friendly fashion will be comfortable.<P> <P>In case no one noticed The Downs itself and what it represents and what others and myself have put into it over the course of nearly 3 years means <I>way</I> more to me than PJ's movie! I could easily live without the film, even though I enjoy it. The Downs though, that I love. And I will gladly respond over and over to any nonsense suggestions that movie criticism has no place here.<P> <p>[ November 26, 2002: Message edited by: lindil ] __________________ The dwindling Men of the West would often sit up late into the night exchanging lore & wisdom such as they still possessed that they should not fall back into the mean estate of those who never knew or indeed rebelled against the Light.

12-20-2002, 05:38 PM	#49
lindil Seeker of the Straight Path Join Date: Jul 2000 Location: a hidden fastness in Big Valley nor cal Posts: 1,680	and if us complaining 'purists' seemed outnumbered before, there seems to be a majority here who now think that PJ way overstepped the bounds he should have given himself.<P>UP! __________________ The dwindling Men of the West would often sit up late into the night exchanging lore & wisdom such as they still possessed that they should not fall back into the mean estate of those who never knew or indeed rebelled against the Light.