Most Tragic Figure

[Inziladun]

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<img src="http://www.barrowdowns.com/images/posticons/eyepal.jpg" align=absmiddle> Re: Tragic Figure

Aragorn looked into the Stone of Orthanc with the intention of encountering Sauron,and frightening him into beginning his war prematurely.And he only looked that one time until after the War.Denethor's motives were less pure. Gandalf and Thorongil (Aragorn) had much influence over Denethor's father,Ecthelion II.Denethor was jealous of Thorongil and disliked Gandalf.He wanted to use the Palantír to keep an eye on them,and to gather information.
Judging from his words to Gandalf
<blockquote>Quote:<hr> &quot;Yea,for though the Stones be lost they say,still the lords of Gondor have keener sight than lesser men,and many messages come to them.&quot;<hr></blockquote>
he seems quite proud of his actions.

Those who will defend authority against rebellion must not themselves rebel. </p>

[Elenanna]

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<img src="http://www.barrowdowns.com/images/posticons/nenya.jpg" align=absmiddle> Re: Tragic Figure

Even though Denethor became proud there are alot of people whose pride bought them to a downfall... Turin {yes i know he also had the curse of morgoth on him so he doesn't really count} saruman {i should think that sum1 would feel sorry for him, he was a great wizard before his pride took controll} feanor {now plenty of people feel sorry for him even though he was full of pride} i know there are more but i cant think of them right now... <img src=rolleyes.gif ALT=":rolleyes">

Elen sila lumenn omentielvo.</p>

[Lush]

Ooh. Neat neat thread. Just to throw my 2 cents in (about a year too late, eh?), is not the classic definition of a tragic hero not only a tragic flaw, but also a realiztion, an epiphany, at the end of his life?
If this is indeed the case, then Denethor does not qualify. Boromir does, and how! Not sure about Feanor, not according to the textbook definition, at least, but really, if he's not tragic, who is?

[Marileangorifurnimaluim]

I guess then tragedy has to be in the eyes of the one who experience it, rather than in the eyes those who watch. Does the realization have to come right before the moment of death, or does it simply need to be that the person is otherwise never given the opportunity to rectify what made the tragedy?

[Turambar]

Lush -

I forgot about this thread! (I was Odysseus819 in a past life.) I never heard (or don’t remember, more likely) the notion that a late epiphany is characteristic of a tragic hero, but it makes sense. Feanor had such an epiphany; I believe the Silm says that just before he dies Feanor knew “with the foreknowledge of the doomed” (or something like that) that the Noldor would never overcome Morgoth (and thus, the quest that Feanor led would fail). Turin also, although his epiphany was a curious (and characteristically dark) one - it seemed to consist in finally realizing the completeness of Morgoth’s revenge and his near-total control over Turin’s fate.

My candidates for most tragic would be Turin and Boromir, with Feanor getting the bronze.

[Mhoram]

1. Turin
2. Hurin
3. Gollum
4. Feanor
5. Isildur
6. Maglor
7. Maedhros
8. Denethor
9. Nienor
10. Gwindor
11. Finwe
12. Beleg
13. Saruman
14. Isfin/Aredhel
15. Maeglin
16. Thrain II
17. Thror
18. Wormtounge
19. Frodo

I tend to only consider characters as tragic if
A)Their moment of tragedy is brought on by little or no fault of their own or
B)They don't redeem themself somehow, like Boromir. Meaning, Maehdros is tragic because he didn't redeem himself. Boromir isn't tragic because he did.

EDIT- Ai! How could I forget Beleg? He goes right in around Finwe.

EDIT 2- After thinking about it, Gwindor should be higher. Done.

[ March 21, 2002: Message edited by: Mhoram ]

[zifnab]

Great thread to be brought back from the dead, over a year old! This one sure beats the current ones, “Who’s your Favorite” and “Who would you take home for summer vacation”. Is there a “Marriage” one out yet? [img]smilies/rolleyes.gif[/img]

I think you guys pretty much covered the majority of them. Good list Mho, I don’t totally agree on the order, but is covers a great deal. I would definitely put the “House of Hador” as my top pick, that covers all of Hurin, Huor and company. In my opinion, if you included Boromor and Gollum, shouldn’t you also include some characters like:

Beleg Cúthalion
Mîm the “petty” dwarf
Aredhel
Faramir

I won’t go into detail about what “tragedy” I think befall these characters but if Boromor and Gollum are on the list, then shouldn’t these be too?

[Lush]

I think it's one thing to feel sorry for a character (like Denethor, I pity him), and another thing to apply the textbook definition of a tragedy to him/her.
On the other hand, my definition is Shakespearean, i.e. King Lear qualifies as a tragedy because Lear has an epiphany, Macbeth as well.
Turambar, it appears that you were as prolific in your past life as you are in your current one. [img]smilies/smile.gif[/img]

[Mhoram]

Thanks for the reminder on Beleg zif, I meant to put him in there but just forgot. Got Aredhel as Isfin.

[red]

*nudges Gwindor up several spots on Mhoram's list* [img]smilies/wink.gif[/img]

-réd

[Turambar]

Random thoughts:

Obviously it all depends on your definition of “tragic”. Mhoram has stated his definition carefully, and it seems almost the opposite of the original definition with Lush’ amendment (a great man brought low by a single “tragic flaw”, has a realization before death). Mhoram’s list definitely raises some interesting questions. Mhoram, if your list is for ppl whose “moment of tragedy is brought on by little or no fault of their own”, I guess you blame Morgoth wholly or almost wholly for Turin’s troubles, which is reasonable. Still, you have to wonder - if Turin’s pride didn’t prevent him from accepting Thingol’s pardon, would he have ended the way he did? I put Turin on the list because I think he was a good man “deep down”, but afflicted like many tragic heroes with a fatal dose of hubris, and in effect doomed himself. He has a little Coriolanus in him.

On the other hand, I’m not sure Hurin would fit under the original definition - as sad as his life was, what was his tragic flaw? Should he not have gone to the Nirnaeth?

Gollum is certainly a pathetic character but putting him on the list raises the whole question of whether he was evil from the start or undone by the One Ring. I lean toward the first view.

Lush - Mhoram did a [img]smilies/smile.gif[/img] but red did a [img]smilies/mad.gif[/img] . Now if they BOTH smile in one thread we’ll surely know that day has come again.

P.s. just noticed red's winkie - CLOSE ENOUGH


[ March 21, 2002: Message edited by: Turambar ]

[Maikadilwen]

Hmmm. Tragic figures? Definately the Nazgûl. Poor wraiths. Once great kings, betrayed by their one weakness: Their greed. Now being held captive in a state between life and death, always remembering what once was.

Oh yes, and Sauron himself of course. Not kidding!!! He IS tragic. [img]smilies/frown.gif[/img] [img]smilies/frown.gif[/img] [img]smilies/frown.gif[/img]

[Mhoram]

Turambar, I did not examine it so closely as that, nor do I desire to.

[Turambar]

That's more like it ! [img]smilies/smile.gif[/img]

[Sharkû]

I think the vain struggle against fate, and the circumstance that all valour turns out ill is vital enough to a definition of tragic to qualify Húrin.
His steadfastness was it that brought the curse upon his kin, his slaying of Mîm and the involvement in the tale of the Nauglamîr spawned the ruin of Doriath.

On an off-topic note, I never knew you were Odysseus, Turambar (I probably just missed that, were you a 'victim' of the forum move to UBB?). Either way, you probably should get a custom title by now... let's see to that.

[red]

Gollum is certainly a pathetic character but putting him on the list raises the whole question of whether he was evil from the start or undone by the One Ring. I lean toward the first view. -Turambar

Here, here! I must agree. How anyone can see anything good in that snivelling little fellow is beyond me! Started evil, ended evil and all evil in between. He'd never make my "tragic" list.

Actually, I don't think there is enough good in Turin for him to make my list either. He was too rash and prideful. Curse or no curse.

-réd

[red]

Looking back over diligent Mho's list, I see several more baddies that are too evil for the term "tragic" (in my book). [img]smilies/smile.gif[/img]

They would be: Feanor, Denethor, Saruman, Maeglin and Wormtongue.

Bad, bad, bad!!!

-réd

[Sharkû]

Just a couple of random additions:

Finduilas (tragic death)
Sador Labadal (did not have a chance to win honour, but got shame when wounding himself)
Fingon (died tragically at the Nirnaeth after the cruel hoax of Morgoth with Gelmir)
Gelmir and Arminas (unable to change the fate and let Ulmo's counsel be heeded)
Arvedui (tragic death)
Thorin (tragical influence of greed)
Brandir (counsels and actions went awry)
Fangorn, the Ents and Entwives
Balrogs (how tragic is it to have wings but not be able to fly?!)

[Mister Underhill]

In his Poetics, Aristotle offers these ideas (somewhat condensed, for your convenience) of what makes a tragedy:

A perfect tragedy should [...] imitate actions which excite pity and fear, this being the distinctive mark of tragic imitation. It follows plainly, in the first place, that the change of fortune presented must not be the spectacle of a virtuous man brought from prosperity to adversity: for this moves neither pity nor fear; it merely shocks us. Nor, again, that of a bad man passing from adversity to prosperity: for nothing can be more alien to the spirit of Tragedy; it possesses no single tragic quality; it neither satisfies the moral sense nor calls forth pity or fear. Nor, again, should the downfall of the utter villain be exhibited. A plot of this kind would, doubtless, satisfy the moral sense, but it would inspire neither pity nor fear; for pity is aroused by unmerited misfortune, fear by the misfortune of a man like ourselves. Such an event, therefore, will be neither pitiful nor terrible. There remains, then, the character between these two extremes- that of a man who is not eminently good and just, yet whose misfortune is brought about not by vice or depravity, but by some error or frailty.

[...]

Fear and pity may be aroused by spectacular means; but they may also result from the inner structure of the piece, which is the better way, and indicates a superior poet. For the plot ought to be so constructed that, even without the aid of the eye, he who hears the tale told will thrill with horror and melt to pity at what takes Place.

[...]

Let us then determine what are the circumstances which strike us as terrible or pitiful. Actions capable of this effect must happen between persons who are either friends or enemies or indifferent to one another. If an enemy kills an enemy, there is nothing to excite pity either in the act or the intention - except so far as the suffering in itself is pitiful. So again with indifferent persons. But when the tragic incident occurs between those who are near or dear to one another- if, for example, a brother kills, or intends to kill, a brother, a son his father, a mother her son, a son his mother, or any other deed of the kind is done- these are the situations to be looked for by the poet.

[...]

The action may be done consciously and with knowledge of the persons [...]. Or, again, the deed of horror may be done, but done in ignorance, and the tie of kinship or friendship be discovered afterwards. [...] Again, there is a third case - to be about to act with knowledge of the persons and then not to act. The fourth case is when someone is about to do an irreparable deed through ignorance, and makes the discovery before it is done. These are the only possible ways. For the deed must either be done or not done - and that wittingly or unwittingly. But of all these ways, to be about to act knowing the persons, and then not to act, is the worst. It is shocking without being tragic, for no disaster follows. It is, therefore, never, or very rarely, found in poetry. [...] The next and better way is that the deed should be perpetrated. Still better, that it should be perpetrated in ignorance, and the discovery made afterwards. There is then nothing to shock us, while the discovery produces a startling effect. The last case is the best…

Under this set of criteria, Túrin’s tale is probably the most classically tragic.

[Kalimac]

If I remember English class correctly, a tragic hero was defined, Lush-like, as someone who was brought low by "a fatal flaw" - in other words, it was an avoidable disaster, as opposed to, for example, having scaffolding sudden fall on you from a forty-storey building that you happened to be walking under - that is sad and horrible, but so random that there was no way to really *avoid* it. Personally I prefer the first definition - the second one is good as well but it would seem to have more potential for just turning into a question of who had the worst luck, as opposed to the psychologically twisty "who *made* his worst luck?"

My choice for that (going by LOTR proper) would be Denethor. He didn't really seem evil, certainly not incipiently evil the way Sauron was, but he had a fatal flaw which you could see, well, a palantir's distance away, and that was Pride. "Did you think that the eyes of the White Tower were blind?" He thought that he had the right and the ability to use the Palantir as well as the heirs of Elendil, and also that by using it to look into Sauron's dominions that he would somehow have the ability to see what Sauron did not want him to. Denethor was great, but he was not as powerful as Sauron, Saruman, or even Aragorn (since Aragorn had a blood-right to the Palantir) and could not make himself so by means of the Palantir. Instead it turned what was obviously a once good and worthy if somewhat grim Steward into a madman who was capable of burning his own son alive.

It's hard to feel sorry for Saruman the same way, since he looked into the Palantir out of pure self-interest (increasing his knowledge, increasing his personal power) and also must have had a better idea of the risks, since he was a wizard. But Denethor must have looked at least partly out of concern and fear for the realm he was ruling, trying to see how best to defend himself against the evil in the outside world. But still, it was the wrong thing for him to do - pride led him to it and eventually he died insane because of it.

[Kalimac]

Mister Underhill, I didn't see that until after posting the last message - thanks! Aristotle said it rather better [img]smilies/smile.gif[/img].

[Turambar]

Following up on red's post about Feanor - it's strange that, in the Silm and UT atleast, we never see his "good side", other than the works of his hands and his love for his father. We never see him acting as a good friend, brother, father, husband, etc. Are there any such portrayals in HoME?

[Estelyn Telcontar]

Mho, did you notice that your list has only male names?! How about the women who were tragic characters? Sharku at least mentioned Finduilas...
From LotR, Eowyn has the tragic element of loving Aragorn without being loved in return - that changes later, but is tragic nonetheless.
From Appendix A, Gilraen (Aragorn's mother)is a tragic character, dying hopeless: "I gave Hope to the Dunedain, I have kept no hope for myself."
And what about Tar-Miriel (Silm), being forced into marriage by a man who used her to get the crown, then brought ruin upon Numenor and death to her in its destruction?!Perhaps others who know the Silm and UT better than I do can find additional examples of tragic women's fates!

[Thinlómien]

You're definitely right, Estelyn! Women should be noticed better in this issue. Though Tolkien doesn't have a lot of important woman characters, they all seem to be tragic, especially those you mentioned.

I think also that Boromir is a very tragic character.

[mormegil]

Originally Posted by Estelyn Telcontar

Mho, did you notice that your list has only male names?! How about the women who were tragic characters? Sharku at least mentioned Finduilas...
From LotR, Eowyn has the tragic element of loving Aragorn without being loved in return - that changes later, but is tragic nonetheless.
From Appendix A, Gilraen (Aragorn's mother)is a tragic character, dying hopeless: "I gave Hope to the Dunedain, I have kept no hope for myself."
And what about Tar-Miriel (Silm), being forced into marriage by a man who used her to get the crown, then brought ruin upon Numenor and death to her in its destruction?!Perhaps others who know the Silm and UT better than I do can find additional examples of tragic women's fates!

If we are looking for tragic women, Morwen would definately be near the top of the list. Lost her husband, young daughter, older daughter, and her son could do not right. Hurin's whole family could be viewed as tragic.

[Formendacil]

Originally Posted by mormegil

If we are looking for tragic women, Morwen would definately be near the top of the list. Lost her husband, young daughter, older daughter, and her son could do not right. Hurin's whole family could be viewed as tragic.

And this after she has already had to flee her homeland of Dorthonion as a youth, leaving behind home, belongings, and close family: her father, her uncle, her great-uncle, in the war that resulted in her grandfather's death.

It's odd, but although I intellectually knew that before, I only just made the emotional connection of the effects of the Dagor Bragollach to the life of Morwen. Curious... No wonder Rian, gentle soul that she was, died after the Nirnaeth. They had seen a lot of pain already...

[mormegil]

I probably should have taken more time on that post but I did it this morning just before I left to work, so time was limited. Thank you for adding to it Formendacil

[Mhoram]

Isfin/Aredhel and Nienor

[Ahanarion]

Hurin and all of his children were the most tragic. Boromir was not truly tragic he repented and gave his life so Merry and Pippin could live although his death was sad(not tragic). Gollum was not tragic but his story is sad. Feanor was sad not tragic I would not call him evil I would rather say he had excessive hubris. Maedhros was tragic. Fingolfin was sad but inspiring.

[ March 24, 2002: Message edited by: Ahanarion ]

[Estelyn Telcontar]

Sorry, Mho - didn't recognize those female names! [img]smilies/rolleyes.gif[/img] Please accept humble apology!

[Nice-Smeagol]

Gollum was definitley a tragic character! Okay not according to the definition of tragic at the start of this forum, but even if he wasn't a great hero in the begining, the books don't claim that "before" he got the Ring he didn't do any bad things and it was the Ring's power over him that caused him to turn into the small, obsessed, twisted (the list goes on and on) shadow of a hobbit. All the Preicousss' fault... gollum.... [img]smilies/frown.gif[/img]

[Turambar]

Actually, he murdered Deagol before he ever touched the Ring. As someone on BD once pointed out, this is the only recorded case of murder-by-hobbit. Seems like he was bad from the start, though I admit he is a pathetic and somewhat pitiable character during the War of the Ring.

[ March 28, 2002: Message edited by: Turambar ]

[inglorion]

Ofcourse hurin and all his family were striken by doom, just as happened to beren and luthien.
But that's all one sort of doom.
The Sackville-Bagginses to are tragic in another way. How would you feel if you want to have something really bad and you're waiting for year after year and then you hear it doesn't come to you at all. (Bilbo taking Frodo as his heir)

greetings, lathspell

[Nari]

personally i feel for eowyn, after she loved someone so much and he didnt love her back. i can identify with that, though i wouldnt go to a war for it...

hmm... yes i think so

[Eowyn of Ithilien]

I don't regard Eowyn as tragic, for though she came through hardship she was rewarded with happiness [img]smilies/smile.gif[/img]
Feanor is the most tragic character because he had the greatest gifts, but caused the downfall of the Noldor

[ainur]

A scholar could conceivably read "The Silmarillion" as a 'how-to' of greek-type tragedy with every archetypal tragic hero represented from Feanor, whose ego was the root source of all the tragic events that followed (and whose brilliance was the root cause of all the great deeds) to Turin whose sufferings never seemed to be his fault but were the source of his great deeds.
But what about Frodo?
Certainly he was capable of 'greatness' or he would never have reached the Cracks of Doom, despite Sam's help. The torment of the ring would have consumed a lesser mortal and yet he struggled on. But, ultimately, he failed. Literally on the brink of Doom, he declared the ring his own, and it was only Gollums lust for the ring that achieved its destruction, a fitting end for its evil. But Frodo's ultimate failure ended his life, the life he had known, as surely as a knife in the heart. More surely, for the catharsis of this climax is all the more poignant as we witness chapter after chapter of Frodo's demise into ennui--far more moving than his mere death would have been.

[zifnab]

The Sackville-Bagginses to are tragic in another way. How would you feel if you want to have something really bad and you're waiting for year after year and then you hear it doesn't come to you at all.

I don't agree with you about that. I think everybody has hopes and dreams, and sometimes they get crushed. Should we call the lifes of the "Gaurwaith" tragic, since they were outcasts and homeless. No, the were greedy, treacherous,ad thought more with their swords then with there heads. Much like Lobelia Sackville-Bagginses(without the sword). And if you are talking about Otho and Lobelia getting Bag End, they did after Frodo left, although I thing that Otho had already died.

Tragic? Maybe female dwarves? Its not really tradgic, but sad none-the-less. Female dwarves only represent about 1/3 the dwarven population. And many of the dwarves(f and m) chose not to marry or reproduce. That sure will cut down on the surplus population. I think its more "tragic", that we don't read more about it. Only "Dís", and Gimli's rare but heartfelt love for Galadriel.

[ March 29, 2002: Message edited by: zifnab ]

[Mister Underhill]

You forgot the most tragic feature of Dwarvish females, ziffy -- facial hair!

I must disagree on one of your points: I hardly think that they would consider the 2:1 ratio of male:female tragic.

Hmm... 2 to 1 ratio, facial hair... sounds like more than one college party I can recall.

[ March 29, 2002: Message edited by: Mister Underhill ]

[Nice-Smeagol]

Actually, he murdered Deagol before he ever touched the Ring.

Even though he hadn't touched the ring he was still in its power because of its beauty and though he hadn't touched it he would have been lusting for it then and there.
Also Deagol refused to give Smeagol the ring so he was probably in its power as well.
So there Turambar [img]smilies/mad.gif[/img] [img]smilies/mad.gif[/img] [img]smilies/mad.gif[/img] [img]smilies/mad.gif[/img] [img]smilies/mad.gif[/img]