Were Balrogs winged?

[Raw]

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<img src="http://www.barrowdowns.com/images/posticons/nenya.jpg" align=absmiddle> Re: Whoa!

Sorry, i was wrong about that, i read wrong. But i found a new name for Sauron, Gorthaur. Don't know if it's the same as in english.

</p>

[Orald]

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<img src="http://www.barrowdowns.com/images/posticons/nenya.jpg" align=absmiddle> Re: Whoa!

Yeah, I think that is his name in Sindarin.

</p>

[Mister Underhill]

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<img src="http://www.barrowdowns.com/images/posticons/nenya.jpg" align=absmiddle> Re: Whoa!

Some may groan at the resurrection of this thread, but I wouldn't do it if a new lead hadn't come to light. <blockquote>Quote:<hr> 20. The Balrog never speaks or makes any vocal sound at all. Above all he does not laugh or sneer. .... Z may think that he knows more about Balrogs than I do, but he cannot expect me to agree with him.<hr></blockquote>This is one of JRRT's comments on a &quot;storyline&quot; for a proposed animated film from around 1958. The reason I quote it is that the storyline does seem to have included some detailed descriptions of settings, characters, and events from LotR which JRRT took pains to correct. Since the prof makes no corrective notes on the Balrog's <u>appearance</u>, it makes me wonder if we might be able to get something approaching a resolution to this question -- if copies of the storyline still exist. Does anyone know anything about this &quot;storyline&quot; or if it is available from any source?

</p>

[Orald]

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<img src="http://www.barrowdowns.com/images/posticons/nenya.jpg" align=absmiddle> Re: Whoa!

And who is Z?

Now I expect that the balrog in the upcoming movies to not make any noises, because Tolkien said so.

I could come to a really profound conclusion with this snipit, but I am not going to say it.

It seems fate is not without a sense of irony.</p>

[Mister Underhill]

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<img src="http://www.barrowdowns.com/images/posticons/nenya.jpg" align=absmiddle> Re: Whoa!

Z = Morton Grady Zimmerman, the scribbler who drafted the proposed storyline. <blockquote>Quote:<hr> I could come to a really profound conclusion with this snipit, but I am not going to say it. <hr></blockquote>Don't hold back! Let's hear it.

</p>

[Mithadan]

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Re: Whoa! Letters!

Some have suggested that the quote cited above is &quot;out of context&quot; and that JRRT is criticizing Z(immerman if I recall) at Disney for suggesting that the Balrog was silent by nature. Supporting this position is LoTR itself. Look at the section of &quot;the Bridge of Khazad-Dum&quot; where the duel on the bridge is described. It says:

<blockquote>Quote:<hr> &quot;With a terrible cry the Balrog fell forward, and its shadow plunged down and vanished.&quot; <hr></blockquote>

Letters is a great source of information but we don't have the correspondence that JRRT is answering so we don't always know the context. Usually it doesn't matter, but here it apparently does.

--Mithadan--
"The Silmarils with living light
were kindled clear, and waxing bright
shone like stars that in the North
above the reek of earth leap forth." </p>Edited by: <A HREF=http://www.barrowdowns.com/cgi-bin/ultimatebb.cgi?ubb=get_profile&u=00000004>Mithadan </A> at: 3/12/01 8:54:14 am

[Mister Underhill]

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Re: Whoa!

That sounds like a rather strained argument. It seems to me that Zimmerman had concocted some sort of dialogue between Gandalf and the Balrog, and this is what Tolkien was referring to. Judging from Zimmerman's other errors, he seems much more likely to have gone for a sneering, talkative Balrog (complete with <img src=devil.gif ALT=":evil"> &quot;Muahahahaha!&quot; evil laughter) than an eerily silent one. That point aside, I take it that the aforementioned storyline no longer exists?

Also I noticed a reference to a Tolkien Society publication from 1997 that had a long article about Balrogs. Has anyone here ever read it or heard tell of what it contains?

</p>

[Mister Underhill]

Dread Horseman
Posts: 570
Re: Whoa!

Surely this quote has come up before, somewhere, but I haven't seen it brought up in connection with this debate and I didn't see it in a quick scan back through this thread:

Thus they roused from sleep a thing of terror that, flying from Thangorodrim, had lain hidden at the foundations of the earth since the coming of the Host of the West: a Balrog of Morgoth.

From RotK, Appendix A, Pt. III

What say ye non-wingers to this quote?

[Inziladun]

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Re: Whoa!

Flying could simply mean it fled the scene in a quick manner.After all,Gandalf said
<blockquote>Quote:<hr> &quot;Fly,you fools!&quot;<hr></blockquote>
when ordering the Company to get out of Moria.
But this is not proof that Balrogs didn't have wings.Maybe some did and some didn't,as was mentioned here earlier. After all some dragons had wings (Smaug) while others did not (Glaurung).

Those who will defend authority against rebellion must not themselves rebel. </p>Edited by: <A HREF=http://www.barrowdowns.com/cgi-bin/ultimatebb.cgi?ubb=get_profile&u=00000125>Inziladu n</A> at: 3/14/01 5:43:19 pm

[Orald]

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Re: Whoa!

I agree with Inziladun on the quote. It seems like it only meant going with speed.

It seems fate is not without a sense of irony.</p>

[Eldar14]

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<img src="http://www.barrowdowns.com/images/posticons/onering.jpg" align=absmiddle> Re: Were Balrogs winged?

This event where the Balrogs &quot;flew&quot; might also have been at a time when the Balrogs could transform (like their non-evil counterparts, the Maiar*). Maybe they, like Sauron, lost the ability to change their form. So possibly all of the Balrogs look different, depending on what form they were stuck in. (Some with wings, some without, etc.)

*I think that's right. <img src=smile.gif ALT="">

</p>

[Fingolfin]

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<img src="http://www.barrowdowns.com/images/posticons/onering.jpg" align=absmiddle> umm...

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&quot;His enemy halted again, facing him, and the shadow about it reached out like two vast wings.&quot;
-------------------------------------------------------
&quot;It stepped forward slowly on to the bridge, and suddenly it drew itself up to a great height, and its wings were spread from wall to wall&quot;

In these two passages the term &quot;wings&quot; is used as a simile and also as a metaphor. It would make no sense for Tolkien to use the term as a simile and and actual physical describtion because that would simply undo his previous work. I submit that due to a lack of a term synonimous with &quot;wing&quot; tolkien used it as a metaphor and a simile instead of using further and more similes because of the shere lack previously stated.

.

Also wings on Balrogs would be a very promenant features but in the silm there is no mention of them ever being present on a Balrog, nor in HoME(not even in &quot;THe War of the RIng&quot. The only time wings were described on a Balrog the term was used in the presence of the same word used as a simile for the darkness.

.

Also such things as troll escorts mentioned in the silm would not be needed if inded balrogs could fly.Tolkien is pretty explicit that Dragons could fly (some at least) why would he be vague as to the abilities of Balrogs?
I don't think he would it seems to me the very nature of his works are vivd well placed texts completely out of line with the Balrog/Wing concept.
.

Origionally Tolkien had no intention of using the term wings of any sort in describing the Balrog of Moria, but the reason he did was to make it seem larger and more dreadfull then it would have otherwise looked, as supported by these two quotesThe treson of Isengard, The Bridge pg 199 Houghton Milton Company and pg 202 Houghton Milton Company:



quote:

------------------------------------------------------

There is a penciled note on the manuscript against the describtion of the Balrog: 'alter the describtion of the Balrog. It seemed to be of man's shape, but its for could not be plainly decerned it FELT larger than it looked.' After the words 'Through the air it sprang over the fiery fissure' my father added: 'and a great shadow seemed to black out the light...'

------------------------------------------------------

What this quote proves is that tolkien wanted the Balrong to seem larger than it was and so
to do this he employed just a shadow in the first drafts.



quote:

------------------------------------------------------

Fellowship of the RIng] it is said only that the
Balrog 'stood facing him' : in C'the Balrog halted facing him, and the shadow about him reached out like giant wings'. Immediately afterward in FR the Balrog &quot;drew itself up to a great height , and its wings spread from wall to wall', neither B nor C has the words 'to a great height' nor speak of 'wings'.

------------------------------------------------------

.
what this quote prove it that wings were just the culmmonation of tolkien endevoring to make the Balrog seem larger and more commanding, it shows that tolkien did not want the balrog to be seen as a Winged beast but as a man-shape with a towering presence due to the imense shadow which seemed to accompany it. Tyhe fact that the shadow was present in the revious drafts but actual wings weren't until the very final supports the idea that tolkien had no intention of giving tha balrog wings and that when he did use the term 'wings&quot; he used it as a simile and a metaphor.

There are more quote in TTOI but I don't have time to post them

</p>

[Imbear Nolwehin]

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<img src="http://www.barrowdowns.com/images/posticons/onering.jpg" align=absmiddle> That's it

Hantalyën, Fingolfin.
Finally, after reading each post, your response closely puts to word the same objections I felt. Particularly, as a student of language, I thank you for the fine definitions and shown-use of simile and metaphor. The paragraphs speak to eachother, as you show, and they communicate Power and Impressiveness.

Now, of course, a reality-check. The true nature of the Balrog is easily analyzed from where we sit reading. However, the folks on the Bridge in Moria were 'seeing' a Balrog for the first time - could it not be posited that to the physical senses the enormity and the shadow-denseness roiling about the beast would be perceived as wings behind and above the central shape? In the dark, all things are possible, especially when the Balrog was working terror and confusion magic - who knows what Hobbits will see.

Imbëar

</p>

[Mister Underhill]

Dread Horseman
Posts: 668
Re: umm...

Also wings on Balrogs would be a very promenant features but in the silm there is no mention of them ever being present on a Balrog, nor in HoME(not even in &quot;THe War of the RIng&quot . The only time wings were described on a Balrog the term was used in the presence of the same word used as a simile for the darkness.

As readers of HoME know, the conception of Balrogs changed drastically over the course of Tolkien's writing life (e.g., from vast hosts of them to "no more than seven" ever existing), so referring to older versions of texts is next to pointless. But since the last part of that first sentence sounds like a challenge, how about this from HoME X?

Far beneath the halls of Angband, in vaults to which the Valar in the haste of their assault had not descended, the Balrogs lurked still, awaiting ever the return of their lord. Swiftly they arose, and they passed with winged speed over Hithlum, and they came to Lammoth as a tempest of fire.

Edited by: Mister Underhill at: 6/18/01 5:32:32 pm

[Mister Underhill]

Dread Horseman
Posts: 669
Re: umm...

Here's something new -- at least, I've never seen this bit put forward here on the Downs. Here's a quote from FotR:

`Elbereth Gilthoniel!' sighed Legolas as he looked up. Even as he did so, a dark shape, like a cloud and yet not a cloud, for it moved far more swiftly, came out of the blackness in the South, and sped towards the Company, blotting out all light as it approached. Soon it appeared as a great winged creature, blacker than the pits in the night. Fierce voices rose up to greet it from across the water. Frodo felt a sudden chill running through him and clutching at his heart; there was a deadly cold, like the memory of an old wound, in his shoulder. He crouched down, as if to hide.

Suddenly the great bow of Lórien sang. Shrill went the arrow from the elven-string. Frodo looked up. Almost above him the winged shape swerved. There was a harsh croaking scream, as it fell out of the air, vanishing down into the gloom of the eastern shore. The sky was clean again. There was a tumult of many voices far away, cursing and wailing in the darkness, and then silence. Neither shaft nor cry came again from the east that night.

After a while Aragorn led the boats back upstream. They felt their way along the water's edge for some distance, until they found a small shallow bay. A few low trees grew there close to the water, and behind them rose a steep rocky bank. Here the Company decided to stay and await the dawn: it was useless to attempt to move further by night. They made no camp and lit no fire, but lay huddled in the boats, moored close together.

'Praised be the bow of Galadriel, and the hand and eye of Legolas!' said Gimli, as he munched a wafer of lembas. 'That was a mighty shot in the dark, my friend!'

'But who can say what it hit?' said Legolas.

'I cannot,' said Gimli. `But I am glad that the shadow came no nearer. I liked it not at all. Too much it reminded me of the shadow in Moria – the shadow of the Balrog,' he ended in a whisper.

'It was not a Balrog,' said Frodo, still shivering with the chill that had come upon him. 'It was something colder. I think it was –' Then he paused and fell silent.

Okay, the point should be obvious -- why should Gimli say the Nazgûl's winged steed reminded him of the Balrog if the Balrog had no wings? Frodo's confirmation that it was, indeed, not a Balrog lends creedance to the idea that it might have been a (flying) Balrog.

[The Barrow-Wight]

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<img src="http://www.barrowdowns.com/images/posticons/onering.jpg" align=absmiddle> Re: umm...

It was the shadow that reminded Gimli of the Balrog, not the flying or any wings the creature may have had.

The Barrow-Wight (RKittle)
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[Mister Underhill]

Dread Horseman
Posts: 670
Re: umm...

Then why would Frodo say, "It was not a Balrog."? Wouldn't it be obvious that it wasn't a Balrog if the Balrog had no wings?

[The Barrow-Wight]

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<img src="http://www.barrowdowns.com/images/posticons/onering.jpg" align=absmiddle> Re: uhh....

Because Gimli suggested it reminded him of one and Frodo was stating the obvious - it wasn't one.

The Barrow-Wight (RKittle)
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[Eldar14]

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<img src="http://www.barrowdowns.com/images/posticons/onering.jpg" align=absmiddle> Re: uhh....

<blockquote>Quote:<hr> &quot;Far beneath the halls of Angband, in vaults to which the Valar in the haste of their assault had not descended, the Balrogs lurked still, awaiting ever the return of their lord. Swiftly they arose, and they passed with winged speed over Hithlum, and they came to Lammoth as a tempest of fire.&quot; <hr></blockquote>

Most people so far have used that quote as an example for why Balrog's have wings. They claim that &quot;arose&quot; means the Balrogs have wings, but it clearly states that they were lurking. When you are lurking, you have to arise before running off anywhere. Also, for &quot;winged speed&quot;, I don't remember Tolkien writing something along these lines for anything that we know has wings.

</p>

[Mithadan]

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Re: uhh....

How about...

<blockquote>Quote:<hr> &quot;He rose in fire and went away south towards the Running River&quot; <hr></blockquote>

Smaug had wings, didn't he? The language is startlingly similar actually.

--Mithadan--
"The Silmarils with living light
were kindled clear, and waxing bright
shone like stars that in the North
above the reek of earth leap forth." </p>

[Mister Underhill]

Dread Horseman
Posts: 672
Re: uhh....

Here's another similar structure, from RotK:

Smaug the Golden, greatest of the dragons of his day, arose and without warning came against King Thrór and descended on the Mountain in flames.

And here's something else that's interesting, from FotR:

Suddenly a shadow, like the shape of great wings, passed across the moon. The figure lifted his arms and a light flashed from the staff that he wielded. A mighty eagle swept down and bore him away.

Another case where the simile "like" is used before the (winged) creature is fully revealed.

[Orald]

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<img src="http://www.barrowdowns.com/images/posticons/onering.jpg" align=absmiddle> Re: uhh....

Quick comment for my favorite Barrow Wight. Don't stop now, I'm behind you.

Thus even as Eru spoke to us shall beauty not before conceived be brought into Eä, and evil be good to have been.</p>

[Mister Underhill]

Dread Horseman
Posts: 673
Re: uhh....

Since it's so slow, thought I'd address a few of these other arguments.

In these two passages the term "wings" is used as a simile and also as a metaphor. It would make no sense for Tolkien to use the term as a simile and and actual physical describtion because that would simply undo his previous work.

I’ve cited one precedent from the same book where JRRT uses the exact same structure – first the simile, then the full reveal. I don’t think we can concede your assumption here that “wings” is used metaphorically.

Also such things as troll escorts mentioned in the silm would not be needed if inded balrogs could fly.

The “troll guard” reference is very suspect and hardly authoritative. For an in-depth look at this reference (albeit in a different context) from the published Silmarillion, check this link. Suffice to say that the passage you’re quoting from was constructed by Christopher Tolkien from multiple sources. None of the source material published in HoME contains the troll reference, and in fact it is the only reference to trolls that exists at all in the published Sil. This argument is not convincing.

------------------------------------------------------
There is a penciled note on the manuscript against the describtion of the Balrog: 'alter the describtion of the Balrog. It seemed to be of man's shape, but its for could not be plainly decerned it FELT larger than it looked.' After the words 'Through the air it sprang over the fiery fissure' my father added: 'and a great shadow seemed to black out the light...'
------------------------------------------------------

What this quote proves is that tolkien wanted the Balrong to seem larger than it was and so
to do this he employed just a shadow in the first drafts.

quote:

------------------------------------------------------
Fellowship of the RIng] it is said only that the
Balrog 'stood facing him' : in C'the Balrog halted facing him, and the shadow about him reached out like giant wings'. Immediately afterward in FR the Balrog &quot;drew itself up to a great height , and its wings spread from wall to wall', neither B nor C has the words 'to a great height' nor speak of 'wings'.
------------------------------------------------------

.
what this quote prove it that wings were just the culmmonation of tolkien endevoring to make the Balrog seem larger and more commanding, it shows that tolkien did not want the balrog to be seen as a Winged beast but as a man-shape with a towering presence due to the imense shadow which seemed to accompany it. Tyhe fact that the shadow was present in the revious drafts but actual wings weren't until the very final supports the idea that tolkien had no intention of giving tha balrog wings and that when he did use the term 'wings&quot; he used it as a simile and a metaphor.

Again, I think unwarranted assumptions are being made here. It is reckless to attempt to divine JRRT’s final intentions by looking at these early and very different drafts. Case in point: Aragorn, in the versions you cite, is still named “Trotter”, who was earlier conceived as a mysterious hobbit, or, alternatively, as an elf in disguise. Obviously, these conceptions changed drastically as the story matured. The fact that the “wings” reference was added last may in fact provide a stronger argument in favor of a winged Balrog as the final conception.

They claim that &quot;arose&quot; means the Balrogs have wings, but it clearly states that they were lurking.

Passages using parallel construction in reference to winged beasts have been cited.

Also, for &quot;winged speed&quot;, I don't remember Tolkien writing something along these lines for anything that we know has wings.

I feel like Big Brother is trying to convince me that “War is peace.” You’re trying to tell me that the use of the word “winged” means that the Balrogs don’t have wings? Okay. I don’t remember Tolkien writing something along these lines for anything that we know doesn’t have wings, either. So there we are.

Quick comment for my favorite Barrow Wight. Don't stop now, I'm behind you.

...Oh wait. There's no argument here. Just some brown-nosing!

Just playing with you, D! Long time no see. Good to see you haunting the Downs once again.

Edited by: Mister Underhill at: 6/20/01 3:51:26 pm

[Orald]

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<img src="http://www.barrowdowns.com/images/posticons/onering.jpg" align=absmiddle> Re: Were Balrogs winged?

Not an argument, not even really on topic.

But didn't you both (BW and MU) write an essay concerning trolls of the first age and use the troll guard for a reference in those essays?

And if so. Shouldn't the passage still be held highly suspect? Or is this some kind of double standard that works for trolls but not for balrogs?

Thus even as Eru spoke to us shall beauty not before conceived be brought into Eä, and evil be good to have been.</p>

[Mister Underhill]

Dread Horseman
Posts: 675
Re: Were Balrogs winged?

BW used the ref as potential evidence for First Age sun-resistant trolls; in my counterpoint essay, I did some deconstructing that (I believe) shows the passage to be unreliable. That's where the link goes to. No double standard here!

[Orald]

<font face="Verdana"><table><TR><TD><FONT SIZE="1" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">Shadow of Malice
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<img src="http://www.barrowdowns.com/images/posticons/onering.jpg" align=absmiddle> Re: Were Balrogs winged?

Almost to thorough MU. Touchè.

Thus even as Eru spoke to us shall beauty not before conceived be brought into Eä, and evil be good to have been.</p>

[Mister Underhill]

Dread Horseman
Posts: 676
Re: Were Balrogs winged?

Okay, I'm in the zone.

Thinking further on these quotes:

<blockquote>Quote:<hr> Far beneath the halls of Angband, in vaults to which the Valar in the haste of their assault had not descended, the Balrogs lurked still, awaiting ever the return of their lord. Swiftly they arose, and they passed with winged speed over Hithlum, and they came to Lammoth as a tempest of fire. (HoME Vol. X)

Far beneath the ruined halls of Angband, in vaults to which the Valar in the haste of their assault had not descended, Balrogs lurked still, awaiting ever the return of their Lord; and now swiftly they arose, and passing over Hithlum they came to Lammoth as a tempest of fire. ( The Silmarillion)<hr></blockquote>

...two points struck me.

First, the construction -- the use of the phrase &quot;passing over&quot; as opposed to "passing through" which is the more traditional phrase for landbound travel. Doing a little research, I noticed that Tolkien virtually always uses "pass (-ed, -ing) through" to denote landbound travel.

<blockquote>Quote:<hr> The Hobbit
At first they had passed through hobbit-lands...

Unfinished Tales
...she passed through the land of Mithrim...

At his right hand rode Borondir, to serve as guide so far as he might, since he had lately passed through the lands.

...these words recalled his speech with Erendis as they passed through Emerië...

...we actually passed through the Shire, though Thorin would not stop long enough for that to be useful.

But on a time it chanced that he was passing through Eriador...

LotR
Leave a message for me here, if you pass through Bree.

We might spend a year in such a journey, and we should pass through many lands that are empty and harbourless.

...it was left in my care to be given to you, should you pass through this land...

...Black horsemen have passed through Bree.

At length after fifteen days of journey the wain of King Théoden passed through the green fields of Rohan and came to Edoras...

The Silmarillion
Thence he passed through Dor Dínen, the Silent Land...

It is told in the Lay of Leithian that Beren passed through Doriath unhindered...

No living creature could pass through that vale that Sauron did not espy from the tower where he sat.

...they intended in their haste to pass through Dimbar...<hr></blockquote>

He uses "pass over" in relation to landbound travel only to denote a crossing of some sort -- e.g., passed over a river, passed over an ocean, passed over the mountains, etc.

However, he does notably use "pass [-ed, -ing] over" to indicate the passage of flying creatures through a region

:<blockquote>Quote:<hr> LotR
`Regiments of black crows are flying over all the land between the Mountains and the Greyflood,' he said, `and they have passed over Hollin.

...a flying darkness in the shape of a monstrous bird, passed over Edoras that morning...<hr></blockquote>

Yet another telling detail from a man who chose his words with utmost care and consideration.

That's point one. Point two:

Just looking on the map of my Silmarillion, there are two physical realities of the Balrogs' rescue of Morgoth that jump out at me.

(1) In the chapter "Of Beleriand and Its Realms", it says that Dorthonion "stretched for sixty leagues (180 miles) from west to east". Based on that scale, I'd make the journey from Angband to Lammoth to be (conservatively) at least 200 miles in a straight line. Not only that, but...

(2) ...the mountain range of Ered Lómin is in the way. I reckon that if they were on foot, they must have been running like The Flash to Morgoth's rescue. Tolkien always portrays his flying creatures as being able to cover great distances in much shorter periods of time than those stuck on the ground (with the possible exception of Shadowfax -- though even he could have been overtaken by "a swift bird on the wing"). Flying Balrogs seem more in keeping with this pattern.


Edited by: Mister Underhill at: 6/21/01 1:46:16 am

[Mithadan]

<font face="Verdana"><table><TR><TD><FONT SIZE="1" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">Spirit of Mist
Posts: 899</TD><TD></TD></TR></TABLE>
<img src="http://www.barrowdowns.com/images/posticons/bloody.jpg" align=absmiddle> Re: Were Balrogs winged?

Bravo Sir Underhill!

--Mithadan--
"The Silmarils with living light
were kindled clear, and waxing bright
shone like stars that in the North
above the reek of earth leap forth." </p>

[The Barrow-Wight]

<font face="Verdana"><table><TR><TD><FONT SIZE="1" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">Wraith of Angmar
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<img src="http://www.barrowdowns.com/images/posticons/bloody.jpg" align=absmiddle> Re: Were Balrogs winged?

Well researched and well said. Indeed, it seems there may be room for winged Balrogs in Middle-Earth if one is willing to dig deep into the texts for abstruse references. This is not meant as an argument against your report, Underhill. We've enjoyed plenty of spirited talk of this and other topics, and I'm not about to rekindle this one. Instead, I wonder why it is necessary to dig so deep to find evidence of the possibility of flight and wings. Why did Tolkien, a wonderfully talented author capable of detailed description (and purple prose <img src=smile.gif ALT=""> ), leave only shadowed clues? Was it his intention to leave an entire species of beings in perpetual shade? Was it an erroneous omission on his part that might have been corrected in time? Or was he undecided on the true physical nature of Balrogs, leaving their anatomy to the imagination of the reader? He certainly must have been aware of the controversy, but so far there have been no solid revelations discovered in his posthumous publications. Maybe HoME XXXVII will at last settle the matter.

The Barrow-Wight (RKittle)
<font size="2">I usually haunt http://www.barrowdowns.comThe Barrow-Downs</a> and The Barrow-Downs http://www.barrowdowns.com/cgi-bin/ultimatebb.cgiMiddle-Earth Discussion Board</a>.</p>

[Mister Underhill]

Dread Horseman
Posts: 678
Re: Were Balrogs winged?

I have often wondered whether there was such a controversy in Tolkien's day. Surely Christopher is aware of the controversy.

The optimist in me thinks that perhaps Tolkien never really solidified his conception of Balrogs (e.g., an entire species -- or only seven individuals -- or only three individuals?) and so Christopher has no definitive document, sketch, or painting which remains unpublished.

The pessimist in me senses a sort of resentment that Tolkien's heirs harbor against their father's rabid fans -- fans who have in many ways prevented them from living quiet, anonymous lives -- and wonders if Christopher refrains from settling these kinds of controversies as a sort of vengeful retaliation.

Then there's a part of me that just wonders what's on tv.

I wonder why it is necessary to dig so deep to find evidence of the possibility of flight and wings.

As a pro-winger, and with all due respect, my response is that it's not necessary to dig so deep to find evidence -- only to try to convince non-wingers of the error of their ways.

It seems to me that the non-wing camp's arguments more or less hinge on the "like two vast wings" phrase in "The Bridge of Khazad-dûm". If one accepts the thesis that the wings are metaphorical only (certainly not an unreasonable position), then one can easily convert what appears to be clear evidence to pro-wingers into more metaphors -- "...its wings were spread from wall to wall..." is taken to mean its metaphorical wings; "...flying from Thangorodrim..." is read as "to flee" instead of as "to move in or pass through the air with wings"; "winged speed" is read as "swiftly", or "as if with wings", rather than a more literal reading. To pro-wingers, evidence abounds!

The most significant find in my research of this go-round (to my mind, anyway) is the parallel use of the "like...wings" in the case of the eagle in FotR. If we view this use of the simile followed by the reveal as a curiosity of Tolkien's style, repeated again with the Balrog, then the basis for reading all the other evidence metaphorically is (I think) considerably weakened.

Anyway, I just enjoy the discussion, as always! I expect this argument will reach no definitive conclusion unless CT does publish that secret Balrog sketch in HoME Vol. XXXVII - Leave Us Alone Already!

[GandaIf The White]

<font face="Verdana"><table><TR><TD><FONT SIZE="1" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">Shade of Carn Dûm
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<img src="http://www.barrowdowns.com/images/posticons/onering.jpg" align=absmiddle> Re: Were Balrogs winged?

I haven't read this whole Topic, but while reading it I had an idea, which was what I had basically thought all along.

In the fight between Gandalf and the Balrog, it tells how the Balrog flew high into the air an came down onto the bridge. Maybe it was that the Balrogs could use there wings as an adnvantage to jumping, but not flying. I think that if they could have flown, they would not so easily have been cast into abbyses. So, with a push of the wings, a Balrog could fly high into the air for a distance but could not 'fly' like an eagle high into the air for long periods of time. It is just a thought.

Before these discussions, I had always imagined that Balrogs could fly. They are extremely powerful, an even if they could not fly, I had imagined them more being able to float with the assistance of there wings. But, in any case, they do have wings. (Not even if RKittle says otherwise. <img src=smile.gif ALT=""> )

"Many that live deserve death. And some that die deserve life. Can you give it to them? Then do not be too eager to deal out death in judgement. For even the very wise cannot see all ends."</p>

[Fingolfin]

<font face="Verdana"><table><TR><TD><FONT SIZE="1" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">Pile o' Bones
Posts: 22</TD><TD></TD></TR></TABLE>
<img src="http://www.barrowdowns.com/images/posticons/onering.jpg" align=absmiddle> Re: umm

Mr. Underhill, I am sorry I have not been able to respond lately but here is my response to your numerous and unchallenged posts:

-------------------------------

<blockquote>Quote:<hr> Another case where the simile &quot;like&quot; is used before the (winged) creature is fully revealed.<hr></blockquote>

All you proved is that tolkien used similes in other areas. This hardly proves that tolkien had a pattern of using the same word for both a simile and a physical attribute.


<blockquote>Quote:<hr> I’ve cited one precedent from the same book where JRRT uses the exact same structure – first
the simile, then the full reveal. I don’t think we can concede your assumption here that “wings” is nused metaphorically. <hr></blockquote>

No if you actually look at the different texts the structure is completely different the only similarity being in both a simile was utilized. The &quot;shadow&quot; in this case was independant of the object because of the time differencial and the nature of such a shadow as opposed to that of the Balrog shadow, if indeed the eagle is the object, but in &quot;the Bridge...&quot; they are not independant at all, the shadow is a part of the Balrog( sure if the balrog was casting a shadow hen what you said would apply but that is not how it works), it is completely different and is a complete stretch.

-------------------------------

<blockquote>Quote:<hr> Again, I think unwarranted assumptions are being made here. It is reckless to attempt to divine JRRT’s final intentions by looking at these early and very different drafts. Case in point: Aragorn, in the versions you cite, is still named “Trotter”, who was earlier conceived as a mysterious hobbit, or, alternatively, as an elf in disguise. Obviously, these conceptions changed drastically as the story matured. The fact that the “wings” reference was added last may in fact provide a stronger argument in favor of a winged Balrog as the final conception.<hr></blockquote>

Are you saying looking at the previous drafts casts no light on the intensions of the author? The generalities and basic conepts remain true through out the drafts despite the variations on nomenclature and various details. THe fact is there is no hint as to such ariel appendages being present on the Balrog in any of the drafts but tolkien says himslef that he wished to make the Balrog seem larger then it actually was, his intensions in this respect are quite clear and unambiguous.

1. Tolkien wanted the Balrog to seem greater then it actually was (this is established to the end by his son)

2. The &quot;shadow&quot; is present in all of the later drafts as a means to accomplish this

3. If the Barog had literal wings then why would tolkien want to make it seem greater then it actually was? He would have no need to. He wanted it to SEEM larger then it actually was what would be the point if it already filled the room with its massive wings?

--------------------------------

In regard to what exactly arose meant that can not be determined since at different times it has meant different things. Tolkien set no rules as to what specific terms such as &quot;arose&quot; which are used in an infinite variety of contexts could be used. Sure He has used the term for creature with wings but has also has not:


Lord of the Rings, Book V Chapter 2:

<blockquote>Quote:<hr> but her eyes were ever upon Aragorn, and the others saw that she was in great torment of mind. At length they arose, and took their leave of the Lady, and thanked her for her care, and went to their rest. <hr></blockquote>


Lord of the Rings, Book V Chapter 8:

<blockquote>Quote:<hr> And Aragorn arose and went out, and he sent for the sons of Elrond, and together they laboured far into the night<hr></blockquote>


Lord of the Rings. Book V Chapter 9:

<blockquote>Quote:<hr> But soon Aragorn arose, saying: &quot;Lo! already Minas Tirith is assailed&quot;<hr></blockquote>


Lord fo the Rings, Book VI Chapter 4:


<blockquote>Quote:<hr> And then Aragorn stood up, and all the host arose, and they passed to pavilions made ready, to eat and drink and make merry while the day lasted. <hr></blockquote>


Silmarillion Akallabeth:

<blockquote>Quote:<hr> yet his spirit arose out of the deep and passed as a shadow and a black wind over the sea, and came back to Middle-earth and to Mordor <hr></blockquote>


and there is alot more...

------------------------------

As for &quot;winged speed&quot; by definition in this context the term winged means &quot;move with wings or as if with wings&quot; (no I did not make thatt up if you don't believe me you can look it up yourself). This being so the passage is hardely conclusive since saying they moved as if with wings is not with out presedent in the Silmarillion where in at least to passages they are described as being extremely fast, here is one:

<blockquote>Quote:<hr> Then suddenly Morgoth sent forth great rivers of flame that ran down swifter than Balrogs from Thangorodrim...<hr></blockquote>

If &quot;winged&quot; were used in such a context as:

<blockquote>Quote:<hr> ...pits of Angband there issued the winged dragons, that had not before been seen; and so sudden and ruinous was the onset of that dreadful fleet that the host of the...<hr></blockquote>

in which the term is used directly to modify the noun then your argument would work but that is not the case.

Also Tolkien has used in a number of passages the term &quot;winged&quot; to denote flying/fleeing/passing away which corresponds to my argument. One such case:

<blockquote>Quote:<hr> ...him ere it fled, almost gay it seemed to be casting off at last all doubt and care and fear. And then even as it winged away into forgetfulness it heard voices, and they seemed to be crying in some forgotten world far above: The Eagles are coming! The Eagles are Coming!...<hr></blockquote>

----------------------------

<blockquote>Quote:<hr> He uses &quot;pass over&quot; in relation to landbound travel only to denote a crossing of some sort--e.g., passed over a river, passed over an ocean, passed over the mountains, etc.

However, he does notably use &quot;pass [-ed, -ing] over&quot; to indicate the passage of flying creatures
through a region:<hr></blockquote>



Then how do you ex-plain the following quotes?


Lord of the Rings,Book III Chapter 2:

<blockquote>Quote:<hr> At dusk they halted again. Now twice twelve leagues they had passed over the plains of Rohan and the wall of the Emyn Muil was lost in the shadows of the East. The young moon was glimmering...<hr></blockquote>


Lord of the Rings. Bok III Chapter 4:

<blockquote>Quote:<hr> We crossed over Anduin and came to their land: but we found a desert: it was all burned and uprooted, for war had passed over it. But the Entwives were not there. Long we called, and long we searched; and we asked all folk that we met which way<hr></blockquote>


Lord ofthe Rings, Book V Chapter 9:

<blockquote>Quote:<hr> He is watching. He sees much and hears much. His Nazgul are still abroad. They passed over this field ere the sunrise, though few of the weary and sleeping were aware of them. He studies the signs: the Sword that robbed...<hr></blockquote>


Lord of the Rings, Book VI Chapter 4:

<blockquote>Quote:<hr> And they passed over Udrn and Gorgoroth and saw all the land in ruin and tumult beneath them, and before them Mount Doom blazing, pouring out its fire.<hr></blockquote>


Unfinished Tales, 1st Age:

<blockquote>Quote:<hr> They walked warily when they left the woods, but all the land was empty and quiet. They passed over the tumbled stones...<hr></blockquote>


Unfinished Tales, the !st Age:

<blockquote>Quote:<hr> ...would pass to and fro between Thingol and his kin in Nargothrond. 22 Now they waited until the starlit night was late, and they passed over in the white mists before the dawn. <hr></blockquote>


Unfinishef Tales, The 3rd Age:

<blockquote>Quote:<hr> ...stern men of Arnor and war-hardened. Of their journey nothing is told until they had passed over the Dagorlad...<hr></blockquote>

<blockquote>Quote:<hr> From neither is the course of the battle perhaps perfectly clear, but it seems certain that the Riders having passed over the Undeeps...<hr></blockquote>



Even if what you said was correct (and its not) Hithlim is quite mountainous.


-----------------------------------------


<blockquote>Quote:<hr> The most significant find in my research of this go-round (to my mind, anyway) is the parallel use of the &quot;like...wings&quot; in the case of the eagle in FotR. If we view this use of the simile followed by the reveal as a curiosity of Tolkien's style, repeated again with the Balrog, then the basis for reading all the other evidence metaphorically is (I think) considerably weakened. <hr></blockquote>


There is no patternsince those two passages are completely different. THe fact is Wing is used as a simile and in the same context used again in the context of a metaphor. To have a simile back up a metaphor is common practice especially when a word can not be found to form another simile for comparison. To have a word used as a simile and a literal statement ( and it is easy to misconstrue a metaphor as that due to the way in which they are inserted grammictcally) makes no sense because it confused the issue and undos the former. It simply doesn't work.

-----------------------------------

Something else which doesn't make sense is if Balrogs could fly then why would the often give up their advantage and come down to the ground?

----------------------------------------

<blockquote>Quote:<hr> Then suddenly Morgoth sent forth great rivers of flame that ran down swifter than Balrogs from Thangorodrim...<hr></blockquote>

if indeed Balrogs could fly then saying it &quot;ran down swifter&quot; would be an improper comparison since you would be utilizing two dissemiler acts.

--------------------------------------

<blockquote>Quote:<hr> In the front of that fire came Glaurung the golden, father of dragons, in his full might; and in his train were Balrogs, and behind them came the black armies of the Orcs in multitudes such as the Noldor had never before seen or imagined<hr></blockquote>

Where the Balrogs flying between the orcs and dragon? No, they couldn't fly, again why would they give up such a great tacticle advantage if not for combat then atl least for reconnosince.

------------------------------

more to come...

</p>

[Mister Underhill]

Dread Horseman
Posts: 685
Re: umm

Whew! There’s a lot of ground to cover here, so this one will be a whopper. But I’m up for it.

Underhill straps on his debating armor and girds himself with his weapon of choice: Tolkien’s texts...

All you proved is that tolkien used similes in other areas. This hardly proves that tolkien had a pattern of using the same word for both a simile and a physical attribute.

What it does show is precedent for using a simile as a way to foreshadow the full reveal of a creature. We can’t simply take for granted the use of a metaphor, as you have done.

No if you actually look at the different texts the structure is completely different the only similarity being in both a simile was utilized.

In the case of the eagle, the shadow is “like the shape of great wings”. Well, isn’t the shadow actually “the shape of great wings”? Of course it is. Tolkien has used this technique before. That’s all I’m showing.

The "shadow" in this case was independant of the object because of the time differencial and the nature of such a shadow as opposed to that of the Balrog shadow, if indeed the eagle is the object, but in "the Bridge..." they are not independant at all, the shadow is a part of the Balrog( sure if the balrog was casting a shadow hen what you said would apply but that is not how it works), it is completely different and is a complete stretch.

I submit that Tolkien does show a pattern of portraying mysterious characters/creatures (especially his bad guys) as “shadows” until they draw close enough to be revealed. Viz:

It looked like the black shade of a horse led by a smaller black shadow. The black shadow stood close to the point where they had left the path, and it swayed from side to side. (of a Nazgûl)

There came the soft sound of horses led with stealth along the lane. Outside the gate they stopped, and three black figures entered, like shades of night creeping across the ground. (of several Nazgûl)

Trembling he looked up, in time to see a tall dark figure like a shadow against the stars. (of the Barrow-wight)

We were outnumbered, for Mordor has allied itself with the Easterlings and the cruel Haradrim; but it was not by numbers that we were defeated. A power was there that we have not felt before. `Some said that it could be seen, like a great black horseman, a dark shadow under the moon. Wherever he came a madness filled our foes, but fear fell on our boldest, so that horse and man gave way and fled. (of a Nazgûl)

What it was could not be seen: it was like a great shadow, in the middle of which was a dark form, of man-shape maybe, yet greater; and a power and terror seemed to be in it and to go before it. (of – what else? – the Balrog)

'Yet if so, it was a black squirrel, and I saw no tail. 'Twas like a shadow on the ground, and it whisked behind a tree-trunk when I drew nigh and went up aloft as swift as any squirrel could.’ (of Gollum)

Before them went a great cavalry of horsemen moving like ordered shadows, and at their head was one greater than all the rest: a Rider, all black, save that on his hooded head he had a helm like a crown that flickered with a perilous light… Soon he had passed, like a shadow into shadow, down the winding road, and behind him still the black ranks crossed the bridge. (of the Nazgûl and his army)

Even as he did so, a dark shape, like a cloud and yet not a cloud, for it moved far more swiftly, came out of the blackness in the South, and sped towards the Company, blotting out all light as it approached. Soon it appeared as a great winged creature, blacker than the pits in the night. (of the Nazgûl and his winged steed)

The great shadow descended like a falling cloud. And behold! it was a winged creature: if bird, then greater than all other birds, and it was naked, and neither quill nor feather did it bear, and its vast pinions were as webs of hide between horned fingers; and it stank. (also of the winged Nazgûl steed)

Tolkien also frequently uses “like” in ways that shatter what you seem to perceive as the iron-bound rules for simile use. Not to belabor the point too far but here are a few instances:

But at that moment there came a sound like mingled song and laughter. (The sound is mingled song and laughter.)

A long-drawn wail came down the wind, like the cry of some evil and lonely creature. (The wail is the cry of an evil and lonely creature.)

His watch was nearly over, when, far off where he guessed that the western archway stood, he fancied that he could see two pale points of light, almost like luminous eyes. (The points of light are (Gollum’s) luminous eyes.)

Are you saying looking at the previous drafts casts no light on the intensions of the author?

I’m saying that the versions you cite represent a refining process, and that attempting to figure out Tolkien’s “final intentions” from early drafts is often misleading. Your assertion that the drafts remained substantially unaltered is not correct. The earliest version (Vol 7., Sec II) doesn’t have references to either shadows or to wings. In early notes, Tolkien thought that Gandalf’s opponent might be a Nazgûl; in later notes, he wondered if the Balrog was actually Saruman. There was clearly a lot of work done here. If Tolkien wanted the Balrog to have a more menacing, imposing presence, is not equally reasonable to deduce from your references that he would add wings to achieve this effect?

In regard to what exactly arose meant that can not be determined since at different times it has meant different things. Tolkien set no rules as to what specific terms such as &quot;arose&quot; which are used in an infinite variety of contexts could be used. Sure He has used the term for creature with wings but has also has not:

Neither Mithadan nor I have claimed that Tolkien used “arose” only in relation to flying creatures. We’ve merely cited two instances with startlingly similar construction referring to a winged creature.

As for "winged speed" by definition in this context the term winged means "move with wings or as if with wings" (no I did not make thatt up if you don't believe me you can look it up yourself).

1 a (1) : having wings "winged seeds" (2) : having wings of a specified kind -- used in combination <strong-winged> b : using wings in flight
2 a : soaring with or as if with wings.

In this case, “winged” can seemingly be read however the reader wants to read it (even your own definition says “move with wings”). But the use of the word “wing” in its various forms seems to be cropping up quite a bit, doesn’t it? Are you telling me that Tolkien, a master of the English language, a philologist by training and by nature, and a contributor to the Oxford English Dictionary, couldn’t come up with a different descriptive word to get his point clearly across? If you are, then I simply disagree with you.

This being so the passage is hardely conclusive since saying they moved as if with wings is not with out presedent in the Silmarillion where in at least to passages they are described as being extremely fast, here is one:
Then suddenly Morgoth sent forth great rivers of flame that ran down swifter than Balrogs from Thangorodrim...

It’s the “rivers of flame” (i.e, lava) that “ran down” here. It’s interesting that you use this reference. “Thangorodrim” refers to the sheer mountains reared above Angband, not the fortress itself. This analogy, especially when coupled with “flying from Thangorodrim” in LotR, is extremely suggestive of flight. See Thorondor’s rescue of Maedhros and Fingon. It’s a bit ridiculous to picture un-winged Balrogs running down sheer mountain faces.

As to the issue of their speed – I agree that they are speedy. Which to my mind argues in favor of wings. Nothing in Tolkien’s world (that I know of) travels faster than his winged creatures. His eagles, the Nazgûls’ winged steeds, and yes, the Balrogs, all travel with alarming speed.

Also Tolkien has used in a number of passages the term &quot;winged&quot; to denote flying/fleeing/passing away which corresponds to my argument.

I am not disputing that "winged" can be used metaphorically. But again I have to wonder why "winged", "wings", "flying", etc. keep cropping up in relation to Balrogs.

Then how do you ex-plain the following quotes?

At dusk they halted again. Now twice twelve leagues they had passed over the plains of Rohan and the wall of the Emyn Muil was lost in the shadows of the East. The young moon was glimmering...

I don’t think this contradicts my observation. This quote doesn’t say “They passed over the plains of Rohan”; it says they passed twice twelve leagues over the plains of Rohan.

We crossed over Anduin and came to their land: but we found a desert: it was all burned and uprooted, for war had passed over it. But the Entwives were not there. Long we called, and long we searched; and we asked all folk that we met which way

It's war that has passed "over" the land. Tolkien often likens war to a tide or a wave. I still don't think this contradicts my thesis, though I admit I'm splitting hairs a bit here.

He is watching. He sees much and hears much. His Nazgul are still abroad. They passed over this field ere the sunrise, though few of the weary and sleeping were aware of them. He studies the signs: the Sword that robbed...

This doesn’t help your case, but rather supports mine. The Nazgûl were traveling on winged steeds by this point.

And they passed over Udrn and Gorgoroth and saw all the land in ruin and tumult beneath them, and before them Mount Doom blazing, pouring out its fire.

This quote unfortunately doesn’t help your case either, since it refers to Gandalf flying with the eagles.

They walked warily when they left the woods, but all the land was empty and quiet. They passed over the tumbled stones...

Sounds to me like this describes climbing over the tumbled stones, not passing through a particular region.

...would pass to and fro between Thingol and his kin in Nargothrond. 22 Now they waited until the starlit night was late, and they passed over in the white mists before the dawn.

Again, no help. This describes a crossing of the Twilit Meres in ferry boats.

...stern men of Arnor and war-hardened. Of their journey nothing is told until they had passed over the Dagorlad...

The Dagorlad is a battlefield, not a region. I admit, this one is cutting it close too, but I think the useage is proper here. They crossed the battlefield. Still, even with exceptions I think there is strong evidence of a pattern here.

From neither is the course of the battle perhaps perfectly clear, but it seems certain that the Riders having passed over the Undeeps...

The “Undeeps” are shallow bends in the river Anduin.

Hithlim is quite mountainous.

Where are you getting this from? Hithlum looks like a plain to me, and is often described as being “bounded” by various mountain ranges. And anyway, if it was mountainous, I fear that helps my argument more than it does yours, as mountainous terrain would tend to slow down landbound travel.

There is no patternsince those two passages are completely different. THe fact is Wing is used as a simile and in the same context used again in the context of a metaphor. To have a simile back up a metaphor is common practice especially when a word can not be found to form another simile for comparison. To have a word used as a simile and a literal statement ( and it is easy to misconstrue a metaphor as that due to the way in which they are inserted grammictcally) makes no sense because it confused the issue and undos the former. It simply doesn't work.

Whether you think it works or not, Tolkien did it. I have shown several precedents.

Something else which doesn't make sense is if Balrogs could fly then why would the often give up their advantage and come down to the ground?

This is one of those questions that has no real answer, like “Why didn’t the good guys just use the eagles to fly them to the Cracks of Doom and throw the Ring in?” Since the Balrogs couldn’t breathe fire, like some dragons, I imagine they had to land to engage their enemies.

”In the front of that fire came Glaurung the golden, father of dragons, in his full might; and in his train were Balrogs, and behind them came the black armies of the Orcs in multitudes such as the Noldor had never before seen or imagined”

Where the Balrogs flying between the orcs and dragon? No, they couldn't fly, again why would they give up such a great tacticle advantage if not for combat then atl least for reconnosince.

It doesn’t say that the Balrogs weren’t flying. This little bit is a greatly compressed piece of action. I don’t think you can draw any conclusive facts from it one way or the other:

Then suddenly Morgoth sent forth great rivers of flame that ran down swifter than Balrogs from Thangorodrim, and poured over all the plain; and the Mountains of Iron belched forth fires of many poisonous hues, and the fume of them stank upon the air, and was deadly. Thus Ard-galen perished, and fire devoured its grasses; and it became a burned and desolate waste, full of a choking dust, barren and lifeless. Thereafter its name was changed, and it was called Anfauglith, the Gasping Dust. Many charred bones had there their roofless grave; for many of the Noldor perished in that burning, who were caught by the running flame and could not fly to the hills. The heights of Dorthonion and Ered Wethrin held back the fiery torrents, but their woods upon the slopes that looked towards Angband were all kindled, and the smoke wrought confusion among the defenders. Thus began the fourth of the great battles, Dagor Bragollach, the Battle of Sudden Flame.

In the front of that fire came Glaurung the golden, father of dragons, in his full might; and in his train were Balrogs, and behind them came the black armies of the Orcs in multitudes such as the Noldor had never before seen or imagined. And they assaulted the fortresses of the Noldor, and broke the leaguer about Angband, and slew wherever they found them the Noldor and their allies. Grey-elves and Men. Many of the stoutest of the foes of Morgoth were destroyed in the first days of that war, bewildered and dispersed and unable to muster their strength. War ceased not wholly ever again in Beleriand; but the Battle of Sudden Flame is held to have ended with the coming of spring, when the onslaught of Morgoth grew less.

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more to come...

Lay on, Fingolfin! I’m ready!

Edited by: Mister Underhill at: 6/26/01 6:30:45 pm