The Original Breaking of the Fellowship

[piosenniel]

I am just re-reading the silmarillion, and was struck by a section in the 'Valaquenta':

". . . Among them Nine were of chief power and residence; but one is removed from their number and Eight remain, the Aratar, the High Ones of Arda: Manwe and Varda, Ulmo, Yavanna and Aule, Mandos, Nienna, and Orome. . . ."

Melkor(Morgoth), of course, is the one removed - his downfall brought on by his own self-pride and greed turning eventually to complete evil. "He began with the desire of Light, but when he could not possess it for himself alone, he descended through fire and wrath into a great burning, down into Darkness."

These passages started me thinking about the fellowship of the 9 in the LOTR, and especially about Boromir. I was wondering if this fellowship of the third age was a re-cycling of the original 'fellowship', and if by extension, there would be one more moment of grace for Morgoth and a possibility for redemption as seen in Boromir's recanting of his selfish actions which stirred up trouble and grief for the other members of the LOTR fellowship.

What do you think?

[burrahobbit]

Very interesting idea, and also wrong. You're right to think about the fellowship, though, there are nine members of each group for pretty much the same reason: Tolkien really liked that number. Somebody will say this again later, but better. Because I'm not giving any proof or details. Ha ha! I've got to say, though, I rather liked thinking about the idea. I've never heard it before, you deserve a dollar for that.

[ May 02, 2002: Message edited by: burrahobbit ]

[ May 05, 2002: Message edited by: burrahobbit ]

[Lothiriel Silmarien]

Ooh, that's a very good question. You just got me thinking about that now. I think you may be right, but of course you probably already know that there were nine in the fellowship to match the nine nazguls. But this might be like a hidden message sorta thing. Maybe Tolkien did really mean for them to be the same. But also, Boromir wasn't all bad. He actually wasn't bad at all except for the fact that he was weak...ok well yeah it is alike. And Morgoth, well it's plain and simple he is definetly evil. But....yeah I'm just confusing myself now!!! But you definetly bring up a good point and I'll have to think about this more now!

[piosenniel]

burrahobbit

Very interesting idea, and also wrong.

perhaps you could elaborate on the 'also wrong' part of your sentence.

[piosenniel]

Lothiriel Silmarien --

And Morgoth, well it's plain and simple he is definetly evil. But....yeah I'm just confusing myself now!!! But you definetly bring up a good point and I'll have to think about this more now!

i think morgoth is evil, also -- but he chose to be evil. do you think there is a possibility of redemption for him? that's what i was interested in.

[burrahobbit]

perhaps you could elaborate on the 'also wrong' part of your sentence.

I probably should. Tolkien liked to use "magic" numbers a lot. 3, 7, 9, 12, all sorts of them. If you think for a minutes I'm sure you can think of some other things that there are 9 of.

[Halfir]

Whether you've scored in the bull, or have misled us all by a thought-provoking but incorrect premise I don't know, but I very much liked your linking of the two groups of nine.

It's interesting to note that the number '9' is a particularly recurring one in the Eldar Eddas of Snorri Sturluson - with which Tolkien was very familair. Indeed, the dwarves and Gandalf come from the Voluspa- The Song of the Sybil , which is part of the Edda.

In the Havamal -The sayings of Har, there are nine lays of power; again in the Voluspa -nine worlds, and nine steps; and in The Runes Baldur hangs from Yggdrasil for 'nine nights long'.

Tolkien referred to the 'leaf mold of the mind' which stored and fertilized his creative ideas, and it is quite possible, that in writing of Boromir's downfall there is an echo - however faint, of the eclipse of Morgoth and his fall from grace, drawn from either conscious or subconscious remembrance.

As to your central question - could there be repsite or redemption for Tolkien's own Lucifer - I'm not sure.

In the Alunindale, when Melkor introduces discord into the Music of the Ainur, Iluvatar says:" Mighty are the Ainur,and mightiest among them is Melkor; but that he may know, and all the Ainur, that I am Iluvatar, those things that ye have sung, I will show them forth,that ye may see what ye have done. And thou, Melkor, shalt see that no theme may be played that hath not its uttermost source in me, nor can any alter the music in my despite.For he that attempteth this shall prove but mine instrument in the devising of things more wonderful , which he himself hath not imagined." Insofar as Melkor is ultimately but the instrument of Iluvatar, then perhaps redemprion is a possibility.

Whatever the conclusion, it was a great post. Congratulations.

[Nufaciel]

I don't think that Melkor would redeem himself, because he was given chances before, and he refused to do so. In fact, I think he became even more evil as those chances passed by. I don't think he would be too happy if he came back out of the Void...

[piosenniel]

Halfir

Whether you've scored in the bull, or have misled us all by a thought-provoking but incorrect premise I don't know, but I very much liked your linking of the two groups of nine.
It's interesting to note that the number '9' is a particularly recurring one in the Eldar Eddas of Snorri Sturluson - with which Tolkien was very familair. Indeed, the dwarves and Gandalf come from the Voluspa- The Song of the Sybil , which is part of the Edda.

In the Havamal -The sayings of Har, there are nine lays of power; again in the Voluspa -nine worlds, and nine steps; and in The Runes Baldur hangs from Yggdrasil for 'nine nights long'.

Tolkien referred to the 'leaf mold of the mind' which stored and fertilized his creative ideas, and it is quite possible, that in writing of Boromir's downfall there is an echo - however faint, of the eclipse of Morgoth and his fall from grace, drawn from either conscious or subconscious remembrance.

As to your central question - could there be repsite or redemption for Tolkien's own Lucifer - I'm not sure.

In the Alunindale, when Melkor introduces discord into the Music of the Ainur, Iluvatar says:" Mighty are the Ainur,and mightiest among them is Melkor; but that he may know, and all the Ainur, that I am Iluvatar, those things that ye have sung, I will show them forth,that ye may see what ye have done. And thou, Melkor, shalt see that no theme may be played that hath not its uttermost source in me, nor can any alter the music in my despite.For he that attempteth this shall prove but mine instrument in the devising of things more wonderful , which he himself hath not imagined." Insofar as Melkor is ultimately but the instrument of Iluvatar, then perhaps redemption is a possibility.

I should have worded the question in a better way. I did not mean to emphasize any importance for the number '9'. What I was trying to think about, and I think you've understood it, is that with the redemption of Boromir as the one who provides the major disharmony in the Fellowship of the Ring, there could be a possibility for the redemption of Melkor. Boromir,as a mortal, it would seem to me, would necessarily have his downfall and epiphany in a much shorter span of time than would Melkor, an immortal being. & Melkor, or so it would seem to me, could never move completely beyond the design of Iluvator, because he is ultimately an instrument of the design and not the designer.

[piosenniel]

Nufaciel

I think the offer of redemption is always present; it's the one who has to make the choice to accept it who prolongs the process.

[mark12_30]

Hi Piosenniel,

I think the difference between mortal (or, say, Child of Iluvatar) and Valar is really key. You wrote:

Boromir, as a mortal, it would seem to me, would necessarily have his downfall and epiphany in a much shorter span of time than would Melkor, an immortal being. & Melkor, or so it would seem to me, could never move completely beyond the design of Iluvator, because he is ultimately an instrument of the design and not the designer.

I see the Valar as those who's job it is to bless the Children of Iluvatar.

The sense that I get about this is that not just Mortals, but The Children of Iluvatar (elves & men, & I wonder if this includes Hobbits, Tolkien said that Hobbits and Men were very closely related) are faced with choosing good and evil, and have their respective lifetimes to choose in. In choosing good, they are redeemable. Melkor I think has already made his choice, and is wreaking havoc. I think Iluvatar's declaration to Melkor is that Melkor's most evil efforts can't thwart Iluvatar's determination to do good to (and for) His children. In essence, what I see Iluvatar saying is, "Try as hard as you can to harm my children, you will be foiled in the end, because the good that I bring about will far surpass the evil that you intend." However, that doesn't mean that Iluvatar will wink at Melkor's evil, or pardon it. Overcome it, yes. Pardon it, I tend to think not.

In terms of being "part of the design of Iluvatar", yes, every living being (and also everything else is) but that doesn't absolve any living being of responsibility for their free will. To me, part of the mystery of creation is that somehow Iluvatar created beings that weren't robots, but were able to choose good or evil. Boromir, in the end, chooses good.

Somehow I think there's more grace offered to the children, who are less powerful, know less, can do less, but must choose. The Valar? They know, they are powerful, they were with Iluvatar. In other words, Melkor's choice of evil is more heinous because he had seen and worked with Iluvatar in close contact and knew he was rejecting Iluvatar in choosing evil over good. To me it's a lot harder to argue for redeemption under those circumstances. Maybe that's why the Valar are referred to sometimes as "angelic beings." There's a distinction, and I think a big one, between them and "The Children of Iluvatar." I think the Children get more mercy, because they are "children".

Piosenniel, this is a great thread. Keep it up.

--mark12_30

[ May 03, 2002: Message edited by: mark12_30 ]

[piosenniel]

mark12_30

The sense that I get about this is that not just Mortals, but The Children of Iluvatar (elves & men, & I wonder if this includes Hobbits, Tolkien said that Hobbits and Men were very closely related) are faced with choosing good and evil, and have their respective lifetimes to choose in. In choosing good, they are redeemable. Melkor I think has already made his choice, and is wreaking havoc.

The problem I see with saying that Melkor 'made his choice', is that it seems to imply that a Valar can only make choices which are eternal in nature. Do they not also have free will, so that each second is about making new choices? This is where I see the possibility for redemption for Melkor.

Iluvatar, in his harmonious design, already includes the discordant theme of Melkor in his composition. In a sense, Melkor is already redeemed through this grace, but has not yet chosen to realize it. We could say the redemption is the easy part; the long hard part of it will be his atonement.

[Halfir]

"I think the offer of redemption is always present; it's the one who has to make the choice to accept it who prolongs the process."

I think this post says it perfectly, and yes, I did understand your point, and tend to agree with it. But nine, which you didn't intend to zero in on plays a very important role in the Eddas and Tolkien clearly was influenced in turn. I've yet however, to find an adequate explanation of why nine is such a mystic number. I've seen myriads of examples but no explanation - and I haven't yet one of my own.

[piosenniel]

Halfir

I did think the number 9 important in that JRRT did specifically make reference to the 9 Valar of chief power and then again to the 9 in the fellowship of the ring. I didn't want to emphasize this because when I tried to discuss this on another forum, most of the members spent much time matching up members of the 9 Valar to the 9 companions.

I assumed that part of 9's significance came from the old wiccan oriented religion in which 3 was a very powerful number, and 9 even more so because it was 3X3.

[Halfir]

Mark 12_30: I loved your post and argument, but from a textual purity point of view I just can't see how you can gloss the words of Iluvatar regarding Melkor in the way that you do.

I have always felt that Melkor's betrayal of Iluvatar's vision stemmed from the fact that he - Iluvatar - alone - could create cf. Melkor's futile search for the Flame Imperishable. And this caused such bitterness that Melkor effectively rebelled. In that sense the Christian myth parallels perfectly. Moreover, for Melkor to then be told :"Behold your music! This is your minstrelsy; and each of you shall find contaiined herein,amid the design that I set before you, all those things which it may seem that he himself designed or added. And thou, Melkor, wilt discover all thge secret thoughts of thy mind, and wilt perceive that they are but a part of the whole and tributary to its glory."is to further embitter an already embittered spirit.

Not being a Christian I have great philosophical difficulty with the concept of free will, and have yet to be persuaded by Christian apologists of its validity. While the Iluvatar/Melkor antithesis need not be seen simply as a God/Lucifer parallell, the similarity is undoubtedly there. Still, I digress.

My point is that I think Piosenniel's point can be argued in the context of the Tolkien text - particulalrly in the Ainulindale, whereas I do not seed textual support for the position that you have taken. Perhaps you could elaborate further? However, I congratulate you on an excellent post in a splendid thread that Piosenniel has started.

[Kalessin]

Interesting post, Halfir - just don't start a free will debate [img]smilies/smile.gif[/img]

As far as I can see from Tolkien's contextual writings, The Silmarillion is intended to 'act' as myth, but as myth that is comprehensible (and perhaps appropriate) to those who are at least familiar enough with Christian concepts to both accept and understand the kind of divinity, semi-divinity and cause-and-effect (ie. the nature of The Fall) that are central to the work.

The parallels between the Valar and the Fellowship are at least matched by the differences. And the number of members seems to me the most obvious and the least important. Halfir's analysis of Melkor's embitterment is impressive - note how he attempts to 'create' by macabre interbreeding and corruption of life forms that already exist. Boromir is a nicely drawn character, and the subsequent introduction of Faramir and then Denethor provide a strong subplot based around the family relationships - the point being that Boromir is essentially mortal ... his one 'fall', or temptation by the ring, is dramatically different from the discordant music that begins Melkor's transformation. Boromir commits only one 'evil' action, and there is both a personal redemption for him, and the narrative redemption - the ultimate triumph of goodness in RotK. Melkor/Morgoth is offered opportunities for redemption at various points in The Silmarillion, but remains Fallen ... he simply pretends in order to survive and rebuild. At the last, all opportunity to repent is removed and he is subject to summary judgement and timeless punishment. These contrasts between characters (and narratives) seem to me pretty compelling reasons not to read too much into parallels.

And I think Tolkien did like the number 9 [img]smilies/smile.gif[/img]

Peace

[Halfir]

Kalessin: I amazed at your modesty! After a post such as that I would have written QED. Great stuff! You've certainly convinced me. And I promise not to start a free-will debate!

[NyteSky]

I never thought of that. Excellent thinking.
But what about the 9 Nazgul? Couldn't the Fellowship be the opposite of them just as easily? Admittedly there's no Nazgul that parallels Boromir but otherwise it seems fitting. After all, it is 9 of evil against 9 that were all essentially good.
I expect to be shot down on this, I just wanted to get a little more interest going in this thread. [img]smilies/wink.gif[/img]

[burrahobbit]

But what about the 9 Nazgul?

Gandalf says something about that, in Rivendell I think. Nine walkers to counter the nine Riders.

[piosenniel]

Kalessin -

Melkor/Morgoth is offered opportunities for redemption at various points in The Silmarillion, but remains Fallen ... he simply pretends in order to survive and rebuild. At the last, all opportunity to repent is removed and he is subject to summary judgement and timeless punishment. These contrasts between characters (and narratives) seem to me pretty compelling reasons not to read too much into parallels.

Where is it said that ALL opportunity to repent is removed. I agree that Melkor is subject to timeless punishment being cast into the Void 'forever'. Still he also is immortal, timeless, with opportunity to recant his choices at any time.

I wasn't thinking of the 9 Valar and the 9 of the FOTR as being directly parallel in comparison to each other. What struck me was the cycling of the mythos (on a smaller scale, granted with Boromir as the source of disharmony), the repetition of the introduction of disharmony into a group effort for 'good'.

The fact that Boromir realizes the wrongness of his choice seems a break in the cycle of continuing evil first started by Melkor's choice to be disharmonious.

[stone of vision]

Greetings great thinkers [img]smilies/smile.gif[/img]

Silmarillion is for me a faraway remembrance, I haven't read it for 10 years and it was the French version.
I should certainly re-read it now.
I remember vague notions revived by your question though.(and a certain encyclopedia)
It makes me think of some (weird?) ideas I wanted to share to further my thoughts. Please feel free to correct me, I'm more at ease with personal Lotr insights [img]smilies/wink.gif[/img]

Could the fellowship and its number be compared to the valar?

I don't know a thing about numerology and Tolkien’s position about it.
However I found "impair"/ uneven ( translation?) numbers choice very interesting. It seems that in Tolkien's vision there could be : an unique supporting by the others, even numbers, at each side to create a power balance, the one making the difference.

If I remember well there were 15 ainur, 14 valar and Melkor the 15th. 9 of them were the highest of the 15, 8 without Melkor , the Aratar.
So it doesn't really match the number of the fellowship.

Makes me think of another point worth unravelling:
In chronology, Lotr was written before the Silmarillion, correct?
I was always thinking that Tolkien created Silmarillion to explain and develop his insights on the Lotr world. Without reading Lotr, Silmarillion would have been kinda -esoteric-.
So I suppose that the original/ inspiration/ idea was the Lotr saga, silmarillion is an extrapolation, in order to refine and to give Lotr an history .
What I found a funny paradox, is the perspective we choose, we, readers, to do the reverse path, because the Silmarillion's themes is the creation, to explain Lotr-
From this pov, yes Lotr and Silmarillion might be matched, though I 'd rather saying they complete each other-
I have a hard time trying to imagine Lotr as a “re-cycling” vision of the silmarillion. ( but I will..)

Each of the ainur "the offspring of Eru’s thoughts” has one part of his kownledge and his might, "except Melkor who had a part of each.
Thinking of it, Melkor might be the closest aratar from Eru in power, science and spirit ? ( aratar reminds me of avatar btw).
Eru the omniscient found no other means to create but dispatching his all mighty-power, in lesser but more defined powers.
The ainur receive as a quality one of his attribute, Melkor having a glimpse of each. Melkor’s lonely quest for himself of the light might be his way to reach Eru, not to say to become Eru perhaps. But his power can't match him. If he could get back the powers of his kinds, gathering them, would he be Equal to Eru?
Wanting to give Melkor that group vision which stays incomplete though, wouldn’t be Melkor the result Eru’s pride? And knowing more than the others, Melkor might long to reach the perfection, searching to be the unique. Only there already was an unique.

As a rebellious child knowing he couldn’t have what he desired most whereas he deserved it obviously from his pov, Melkor would have become the antithesis of Eru at the level of the valar.
And to fulfilled it, only 2 way might be imagined, submitting by their own will/by force his kinds under his authority or destroying them to remain the one.

Until the day he would understood acceptance of his state of avatar and the sharing will, then redemption could be a possibility.

I think the valar’s quest is the creation of a world obeying Eru’s desire.
Melkor’s quest is to return back to the primal essence of the power.
In a certain way, Melkor is searching to reach the tue light too, condemned by his arrogance to look for it in dark paths.
Sauron and the unique ring could be the result of this motivation but simplified throught the time flow and the lost knowledge of the new age to an evil/good fight.

One could see another mandala, where creation can’t be separate to destruction, the purest essence could corrupt itself, Power’s perversity. Perfection couldn’t live without imperfection if you want to evolve to something new . Even Eru gave up the temptation to create an entity representing the pride and arrogance of a “God”.

Ok, I should stop “carpet “ smoking there [img]smilies/biggrin.gif[/img]

The second part about Boromir and the breaking of the fellowship is on his way for the next post;
I ‘m so inspired by this interesting and rich topic where I enjoyed and appreciated all your judicious comments! [img]smilies/smile.gif[/img]

[img]smilies/smile.gif[/img]

[Halfir]

Piosenniel: The nicety of your argument eludes me. Granted that Melkor is immortal, if he is subject to timelesspunishment and all opportunity to repent has been removed I can't quite see how he would exercise a redemtive choice should he seek to do so. Can you enlighten me please?

[piosenniel]

Halfir

The nicety of your argument eludes me. Granted that Melkor is immortal, if he is subject to timelesspunishment and all opportunity to repent has been removed I can't quite see how he would exercise a redemtive choice should he seek to do so. Can you enlighten me please?

I'll agree that he is subject to timeless punishment. What I don't agree with is that all opportunity to repent has been removed.
How do you think this is so? He has been banished to the Void, but he must still have all his powers of critical thinking left to him. Can't he at some point use this long expanse of time to come to an understanding of his wrong choices and realizing this, say so. I'm sure Eru is constantly cognizant of all his creations. Better yet, Melkor could give new voice to a harmonious refrain and in doing so excercise a redemptive choice.

[ May 05, 2002: Message edited by: piosenniel ]

[piosenniel]

stone of vision

Could the fellowship and its number be compared to the valar?

Except for the fact that there were originally 9 chief Valar, I would say no, they cannot be compared directly.

I don't know a thing about numerology and Tolkien’s position about it

I don't know his position either, but knowing that he was concerned with the creation of a mythos in his writings, he did use many of what might be called archetypal numbers - 3,7,9 etc; numbers that play important symbolic parts in different cultures' myths.

So I suppose that the original/ inspiration/ idea was the Lotr saga, silmarillion is an extrapolation, in order to refine and to give Lotr an history.

I think that the Silmarillion was his chief work - it was the mythos underlying and giving depth to his other Middle Earth creations.

I have a hard time trying to imagine Lotr as a “re-cycling” vision of the silmarillion.

I never meant to imply that LOTR was a recycling of the Silmarillion. I meant to say that a culture's mythos cycles through the cultures entire history in one form or another. It's woven into the fabric of that culture and is expressed in individual ways according to the current situation in which it finds itself.

The ainur receive as a quality one of his attribute, Melkor having a glimpse of each. Melkor’s lonely quest for himself of the light might be his way to reach Eru, not to say to become Eru perhaps. But his power can't match him. If he could get back the powers of his kinds, gathering them, would he be Equal to Eru?
Wanting to give Melkor that group vision which stays incomplete though, wouldn’t be Melkor the result Eru’s pride? And knowing more than the others, Melkor might long to reach the perfection, searching to be the unique. Only there already was an unique.

This is not a difficult concept for me, on a personal level, to understand. It is a Buddhist concept that there is an identity of the Relative and the Absolute. Melkor, from the Buddhist point of view, need only stop 'trying' to reach perfection and realize it is already an accomplished fact.

Until the day he would understood acceptance of his state of avatar and the sharing will, then redemption could be a possibility

Yes, and since he has all the time in the whole of creation to realize this, he may yet be redeemed!

Sauron and the unique ring could be the result of this motivation but simplified throught the time flow and the lost knowledge of the new age to an evil/good fight

Sauron and his history seems to me another cycling of the mythos.

The second part about Boromir and the breaking of the fellowship is on his way for the next post;

Awaiting this next post of yours eagerly!!!

Good thinking! Good questions!!

[Nar]

Excellent question, piosenniel, especially since this wouldn't be the only LotR story that repeats a Silmarillion story: Beren one-handed and the Silmarillion / Frodo nine-fingered and the ring. Pride was certainly the downfall of both Melkor and Boromir. Boromir redeemed himself by defeating a greater evil. There's no opportunity like that for Melkor in these stories-- he's the worst thing around. (Assuming Ungolient did consume herself. Anyway, killing her would hardly be enough.)

I personally could never forgive Melkor for turning elves, who have hope, into orcs, who have none. (Maybe the orcs will develop some post-Sauron.) As far as I remember, Melkor is coming back through the Door of Night for the final battle at the end of time-- are you thinking of him repenting then? or afterwards? That would be amazingly anti-epic and post-mythic, if this final battle at the end of time turned out to be a matter of Melkor wrestling with his conscience; in that case the role of Turin, who was to assist in the battle, would be to reproach Melkor, represent all his victims and trigger this attack of conscience. I had envisioned more of a vengeance-fest for Turin. I can't say I think it's impossible, but what could a Valar learn out in the Great Darkness that would give him a chance of realizing the value of goodness? He'd already been shown his part in the plan, before he ever committed a single crime. Well, no, he committed all his crimes twice, didn't he, first in song and next in deed.

piosenniel, I liked your explanation of the case for Melkor's redemption very much:
'Iluvatar, in his harmonious design, already includes the discordant theme of Melkor in his composition. In a sense, Melkor is already redeemed through this grace, but has not yet chosen to realize it. We could say the redemption is the easy part; the long hard part of it will be his atonement.'
This makes me think of Gollum/Smeagol much more than Boromir. As Frodo state in RotK:
'But for him ... I could not have destroyed the Ring. ... So let us forgive him! For the Quest is achieved, and now all is over. I am glad you are here with me. Here at the end of all things ...'
Gollum died unrepentant, but Frodo forgave him because the quest was fulfilled by the manner of his death. Frodo is a child of Illuvatar, so on the principle of 'like son, like father,' Illuvatar could say the same of Melkor, after his death, if he dies 'useful.' You're saying that Melkor's lifetime of evil was useful to the creation-quest. I agree. However, Melkor's atonement could still be his separation from Illuvatar into spiritual dissolution, just as Gollum is separated from Frodo and cast into the fire. Gollum's forgiven, but he's still gone, my preciouss. Now Gollum's Illuvatar's problem, my goodness! I'd love to see that meeting! Fan fiction, anyone? I suppose what will decide between Melkor's dissolution or transcendence is the part he plays in final battle. It seems to me from reading Tolkien's description of it in HoME 5 (which is as far as I've gone in reading that series) that he does not expect Melkor to pull up and repent.

Sil, I liked your thinking on 9 being an odd number-- that's a unique approach! Pairs centered around a single number: Frodo, Manwe.
'However I found "impair"/ uneven ( translation?) numbers choice very interesting. It seems that in Tolkien's vision there could be : an unique supporting by the others, even numbers, at each side to create a power balance, the one making the difference.' The only difficulty with the 'oddness' idea is that Melkor's problem was not so much with Manwe but with Illuvatar, and Illuvatar, being the creator of all, is un-numbered-- the origin, you might say.

Piosenniel-- just read your latest post, and I see that you place an emphasis on quiet thinking throughout eternity as the means of redemption/enlightenment for Melkor, in contrast to my focus on a final battle. Clearly, you're operating on a more civilized level than I have been. The model in Tolkien's work that corresponds to this sort of spiritual change is Niggle's experience in purgatory in Leaf by Niggle. Niggle is an artist who loved his own creation too much and his fellows not enough, and he reaches his own enlightenment through 'complete rest, in the dark.' --Including guidance from voices that debate the state of Niggle's soul. I could see this as a model for Melkor's enlightenment after everything is done-- but only if the orc-souls get the same chance.

[piosenniel]

Nar

Piosenniel-- just read your latest post, and I see that you place an emphasis on quiet thinking throughout eternity as the means of redemption/enlightenment for Melkor, in contrast to my focus on a final battle. Clearly, you're operating on a more civilized level than I have been. The model in Tolkien's work that corresponds to this sort of spiritual change is Niggle's experience in purgatory in Leaf by Niggle. Niggle is an artist who loved his own creation too much and his fellows not enough, and he reaches his own enlightenment through 'complete rest, in the dark.' --Including guidance from voices that debate the state of Niggle's soul. I could see this as a model for Melkor's enlightenment after everything is done-- but only if the orc-souls get the same chance.

Just a quick note, because I must get off this board and go to work - I appreciated the model reference drawn from Niggle's experience. Honestly, I had read that a very long time ago and quite forgotten it. All of those 'voices that debate the state of Niggle's soul' could be thought of as all the creatures that Melkor has wronged through his affinity for choosing 'evil'; it would be a long, lonely, and arduous dialog with himself. The problem that I see with orc-souls getting a chance, is that I'm not sure that the creatures which Melkor bred have souls. He didn't 'create' them; he bred them much in the same manner that someone might put together an automaton. They are programmed only to make evil choices. I don't think they have any capacity for positive, creative imagination and are incapable of reasoning out a choice for good. This is reflected again in the breeding of the Uruk-hai by Saruman. These creatures have no 'light' within them, as do the creations of Eru.

Am very intrigued by your reference to Melkor coming back through the Door of Night for the Last Battle. I have as yet to read the HoME's(just bought the first 4, in fact.) Does Tolkien state why he does not expect Melkor to pull up and repent in the final battle?

[ May 06, 2002: Message edited by: piosenniel ]

[Mithadan]

This is quite a thread! A full response might require pages, so I will try to limit myself here, primarily by reliance upon Tolkien's own words rather than my own interpretations.

Piosenniel: Orcs had souls.

"So in this myth, it is 'feigned' (legitimately whether that is a feature of the real world or not) that He [Eru] gave special 'sub-creative' powers to certain of His highest created beings: that is a guarantee that what they devised and made should be given the reality of Creation. Of course within limits, and of course subject to certain commands and prohibitions. But if they 'fell', as the Diabolus Morgoth did, and started making things for 'himself, to be their Lord', these would then 'be', even if Morgoth broke the supreme ban against making other 'rational' creatures like Elves or Men. They would at least 'be' real physical realities in the physical world, however evil they might prove, even 'mocking' the Children of God. They would be Morgoth's greatest Sins, abuses of his highest privilege, and would be creatures begotten of Sin, and naturally bad. (I nearly wrote 'irredeemably bad'; but that would be going too far. Because by accepting or tolerating their making - necessary to their actual existence - even Orcs would become part of the World, which is God's and ultimately good.) But whether they would have 'souls' or 'spirits' seems a different question; and since in my myth at any rate I do not conceive of the making of souls or spirits, things of an equal order if not an equal power to the Valar, as a possible 'delegation', I have represented at least the Orcs as pre-existing real beings on whom the Dark Lord has exerted the fullness of his power in remodelling and corrupting them, not making them..." Letters of J.R.R. Tolkien, letter no.153

Because Orcs were not "made" but rather were corrupted from pre-existing beings, they would have possessed "souls or spirits". Otherwise, as JRRT goes on to say in the above letter, they would be only puppets animated at the will and direction of their master.

Following the logic of the preceding letter, one might imply that Morgoth, as a being possessing a soul within the framework of Tolkien's sub-created mythos, would also be not "irredeemably bad". But this seems less sure. For here we must examine Morgoth's own nature. In doing so, I again rely on Tolkien's own words found in a little known essay called "Osanwe-kenta" likely written around 1960 and finally published in Vinyar Tengwar in 1998. In this remarkable piece which addresses the nature of "direct thought-transmission", as described briefly at the end of LoTR, Tolkien says the following about Morgoth:

"Melkor repudiated all axani [laws or rules]. He would also abolish (for himself) all unati [things impossible to be done] if he could. Indeed in his beginning and the days of his great might the most ruinous of his violences came from his endeavour so to order Ea that there were no limits or obstacles to his will. But this he could not do. The unati remained, a perpetual reminder of the existence of Eru and his Invincibility, a reminder also of the co-existence with himself of other beings (equal in his descent if not in power) impregnable by force. From this proceeds his unceasing and unappeasable rage."

This is Morgoth's nature and it is "unceasing and unappeasable". This at least implies some inability to repent. Indeed the balance of this piece addresses the Valar's hope that Morgoth would repent while in the captivity of Mandos and that his release after having apparently repented resulted from a fundamental inabilility to comprehend his nature.

Boromir's repenting of his actions cannot be equated with Morgoth. Men enjoy a unique position within Tolkien's Legendarium, in that they have greater ability to exercise free will in contrast to the Valar and Elves whose actions are bound up more strictly by the Music of the Ainur which is "as fate" to them. This is not to say that all is pre-ordained for Elves and the Valar, but rather that they are restricted by the broad brushstrokes which make up the story of Arda.

[piosenniel]

Mithadan

Thanks for the clarification! I appreciate the references to sources outside the LOTR and the Silmarillion. I have to admit my depth of Tolkien knowledge is limited primarily to these fictional works of his with a few others included, and that my appreciation for his storytelling ability and depth of creative invention is a response to these works and not based on a more scholarly investigation. One of the benefits of being on this board is being exposed to sources outside my limited knowledge and being challenged to add them to my corpus of consideration!

But back to your comments on orcs having souls - Since you have supported that statement I will accept it, but I'm still not sure if they would be redeemable. Having been 'remodelled and corrupted' by the Dark Lord, I don't know if they could make the decision for 'good', the decision to repent, since by their corrupted nature they are wholly engaged in evil. On the other hand, since Melkor does still have that ability to make independent decisions, he still could make the choice for 'good'; the choice not to be antithetical to the themes of creation that Eru has established as acceptable. I also wonder, if Melkor were to repent & be redeemed, would then his corrupted beings be included in that redemption since he is the source of their evil?

[Mithadan]

Your last question is also addressed in the Osanwe-Kenta. Tolkien speculates that if Morgoth had repented while in Mandos, the evil he had done would still not be cured. He had poured out his power into the world for the purpose of corrupting it and that corruption would remain.

[stone of vision]

I'm enchanted! I' m learning so much things I have misknown *shining eyses* [img]smilies/redface.gif[/img]
So far away from the first age of creation, I would like to come back to, from my pov, the origin, of the Fellowship breaking " à la sauce " Sil/ lotr [img]smilies/smile.gif[/img]
It took a little time to gather my thoughts about the breaking and Boromir (oddly because of the movie influence, Sean Bean's acting/ PJ 's pov- interesting indeed- so I get confused about my own beliefs in the book) but here they are.

The breaking

I think the Fellowship was doomed to break since the moment it was first created.
The purpose of the fellowship was not to go in Mordor and accomplish the ring destruction together.
It deals with supporting/ helping the ring bearer- the only one devoted to end his fateful mission:
Physically if strength they have, wisely if wisdom they were, with concern and friendship if it is all they have, supplying him ? if he would fail.
-"The one for all, and all for one" axiom-
The fact they were chosen to represent one of each races of Midlle- Earth expressed their common willing of coalition and Sauron's rejection by all the sensible people on the free earth.
The number of nine was chosen (out Tolkien's inclination for 9 [img]smilies/wink.gif[/img]) because of the 9 ringwraiths and the fewer they would be the more chance they would have to intrude the dark land incognito. That was the fantastic and unbelievable bet (espcially for Sauron) to trick Evil.
I remember Elrond telling them that every companions frodo would have, or meet in his journey, will be free of going with him as far and as long their hearts desire. Even Gandalf nor Aragorn wouldn't have known if they would have gone till the cracks of Mts Doom with Frodo, sensing in a way that might not be what they were destined to.
Boromir at least, have declared clearly his intentions wasn't to go in Mordor but join Minas Thirith and the Gondor's war.
Thus far the end of his life and in spite of learning better about the hobbits, he has never changed his mind.
The lost of Gandalf, the uncertainities of the inner own desires battle, each members have to face, and above all, the deep Frodo's knowledge and cleared sight he had to achieve the quest alone, may have already craked the group before it shatters. Boromir' behaviour could certainly be a new arguments to confirm Frodo's decision, not wanting to let the dark power of the ring infects the people he loves and respects, not wanting to loose anyone else after Gandalf's departure.

Hmm, Boromir's heart to heart is still in the fridge waiting to" be cooked" lol [img]smilies/biggrin.gif[/img]
I have one or 2 points wich scratch my brain about that man and his behaviour...

[stone of vision]

AHAHA! I have a hard time with the smilies [img]smilies/biggrin.gif[/img]
get confused between
[img]smilies/redface.gif[/img] and [img]smilies/cool.gif[/img] or maybe [img]smilies/eek.gif[/img] lol!
I'm being silly there! *sigh*
ok time to get in my corner to think a while...

[piosenniel]

Stone of Vision --

Hmm, Boromir's heart to heart is still in the fridge waiting to" be cooked" lol
I have one or 2 points wich scratch my brain about that man and his behaviour...

good thoughts on the fellowship of the ring! awaiting your thoughts on Boromir and eventually on Melkor! [img]smilies/smile.gif[/img]

[stone of vision]

I think Boromir is maybe the closest character to us- simple mortals.
He ‘s young, strong, courageous, ambitious, all the qualities to success in life but he hasn’t the experience and the wisdom of Aragorn nor his fate.

Boromir looks like a young wolf with long fangs too fiery to be tamed! Like a bloc of pure precious stone needing to be worked to become a jewel! But we don’t know whose hands (evil/goods) will polish him.

What guides him is his desire to be more than he is, as he is the more common in this uncommon fellowship.
What he needs is aknowledgement from the people of the Gondor, from his peers , of his being as a legitimate leader. Place he does seek for himself but would never obtain , belonging , only, to the Gondor’ stewards family without usurping the King’s title.

How to be worthier than a king when you are not the King, but to be better, and more powerful than him.

The rings is one way to get it, though i’m sure, he ‘s not conscious of his own selfishness.
The quest of power for good is his excuse. To fill his duty better and contribute to high the honour of Minas Thirith like the King’s heir would have done, is his justification.
For his misfortune, Boromir made the mistake to choose the wrong option in his insiquitiveness and foolhardiness.

More than a comparison to Melkor which I wouldn’t be able to do, too upper for knowledge yet, the comparison I thought, is to Faramir but also Aragorn.

Faramir could be for Aragorn, in some ways, what Sam is for Frodo: Loyalty.
Like a friend of mine told, he has more sense than his brother. He has accepted the role he was given and tried not to master fate for his own glory but followed it to make things better and productive for the people who share his life and him.

Aragorn is opposed to Boromir by his age, his noble line, his integrity, his experience,” his perfection “. So Aragorn is playing the longing role Boromir envied, cursing him to live in his shadow.

Boromir is stuck between the two, wanting to take the opportunity to change his fate and unable to reach the stars.

The first time I read FOTR, I found Boromir unpleasant and have always believed that Tolkien disliked this character, he gave him the villain- role of a juda, the traitor ! The result in another level of the corruption by the ring.
--And it’s a terrible waste because his inner persona is not evil. His parents’ s love, Pippin and Merry’s admiration for him are the proofs of the good man he could be.
At the beginning of FOTR, Boromir was on the border line of his choice, in France we have expression “ etre sur la tranche”. All long the story, we witness his mistakes and his descend whereas he was seeking to go upper.

In the book, I didn’t cry when he died whereas I burst in tears when Frodo is threatened by him realizing the evilness of the ring was working in the company. (ok, my yin sensitiveness part)

Then come to me an unexpected insights of boromir via the movie.

In the movie, Sean Bean’s acting at the last moments of Boromir touched me very much, ( one of my lachrymal moments in the film paradoxically) his respectful aknowledgement and acceptation, his “love” for Aragorn as the man he is, as his king, leads him to the peace of mind and the satisfaction he may desire. Boromir left the middle earth his spirit and his soul free and intact in the vision of P jackson. (sob !)

On the contrary in the book, Boromir keeps his pride and his unsatifaction till the end. . He didn’t challenge openly Aragorn’rights but never recognized personally it.
His last words said he was sorry. Who was he sorry for the hobbits? For frodo? For himself? For failing? Not for forgiveness. Then he stated with coldness “I have paid” implying he own defeat, his own belated error, accepting what he thinks he deserved. It was too late to change anything, what a frustration for a man who wanted to change the world.

In the following books I think Tolkien tried to rehabilitate him but i can’t rid of the idea that” this Boromir” will always be spirit of dissatisfaction and unachievement.

Desiring something he couldn’t reach, he was certainly the most vulnerable against the ring’s seduction, becoming its tool to create discord in the fellowship.

Ps Melkor is a very "big cake"! I have to improve my cooking skills to make something suitable! lot, lot of work (sigh!) [img]smilies/biggrin.gif[/img]
One day I should be able to post it in Melkor's evil by nature or will...

Thanks for that great thread! [img]smilies/smile.gif[/img]

[piosenniel]

stone of vision --

Like a bloc of pure precious stone needing to be worked to become a jewel! But we don’t know whose hands (evil/goods) will polish him.

Interesting description - his name translates as 'Jeweled Fist'.

How to be worthier than a king when you are not the King, but to be better, and more powerful than him.

Good description of Boromir's naive arrogance. And I do think, too, as you, that in his naivety he unthinkingly made his choice to 'get' the ring to accomplish this goal. In this area, he cannot be compared to Melkor and his choices. Boromir was a being who made choices for himself using unsophisticated reasoning based on not well thought out or understood goals. Melkor, on the other hand, was a very cognizant being, a very sophisticated thinker whose choices were made, in my opinion, in full knowledge of the possible outcomes.

Rethinking my question of whether Boromir's repentance and redemption from his wrong choices foreshadows the possibility of redemption for Melkor, I would now lean toward to possibility of 'no'. Their choices, though both of the selfish nature, were made on entirely different levels of knowledge & quality of reasoning. But still, I hold out that hope for him!

Faramir could be for Aragorn, in some ways, what Sam is for Frodo: Loyalty.

In a way, I think this, too. Except that I see Faramir and Aragorn as being equals who understand their respective stations and positions. With Frodo and Sam, I always felt that Frodo was on a more ethereal plane than Sam, as if he were just slightly removed from the common hobbit. It will be interesting in the next 2 movies to see PJ's take on Faramir's understanding of his brother's character.

In the movie, Sean Bean’s acting at the last moments of Boromir touched me very much, ( one of my lachrymal moments in the film paradoxically) his respectful aknowledgement and acceptation, his “love” for Aragorn as the man he is, as his king, leads him to the peace of mind and the satisfaction he may desire. Boromir left the middle earth his spirit and his soul free and intact in the vision of P jackson. (sob !)

Yes, I liked PJ's interpretation of Boromir's epiphany and reconciliation to the fellowship. It fleshed out the mortal man from Tolkien's harsh character.

Thanks so much for the delicious slices of 'cake' - they provide much fuel for the thinking process.

Looking forward to your thoughts on Melkor!

[ May 12, 2002: Message edited by: piosenniel ]

[ May 12, 2002: Message edited by: piosenniel ]

[VanimaEdhel]

stone of vision: I agree completely.

I do not see Boromir as any sort of "evil" character. He acted as most mortal men would have reacted to the power of the ring. Faramir, his brother, was more noble than most men, in that he did not succumb to the power of the ring (Aragorn obviously did not either).

Morgoth/Melkor/The Dark Lord/Bauglir/The Enemy/etc., on the other hand, was evil.

The aspect of "nine", as was said earlier, was used a lot in Tolkien's novels, as were other "key" numbers. Also, the number twelve was used a lot in the Elvish calendar, for they liked multiples of six/twelve. An Elvish "year" of sorts (a "yen") was 144 years, if I remember correctly, so, yes, there is a lot of numerical play in Tolkien's books. I would not, however, say that Boromir's story could be at all parallelled with Morgoth.

Good thought though! I had to think about it for a while!

[piosenniel]

VanimaEdhel

It's not a matter of paralleling their stories - it's a matter of considering whether Melkor has the possibility for repentance and redemption.

[stone of vision]

Thanks Piosenniel and VanimaEdhel, I'm pleased you like my "cooking" [img]smilies/wink.gif[/img]
French adore good food, and Lotr is the kind of tasty food for mind and spirit [img]smilies/smile.gif[/img]

Interesting description - his name translates as 'Jeweled Fist'.

I hadn't known this. Very interesting coincidence! [img]smilies/eek.gif[/img]

. Their choices, though both of the selfish nature, were made on entirely different levels of knowledge & quality of reasoning.

I like the sagacity of this remarks. So rightful insight!

But still, I hold out that hope for him.

Depends on which side pov you are, pessimistic, or optimistic. As I told in frodo's light thread, I think nothing is black or white, but rather a shade of greys
and Hope should always be. [img]smilies/smile.gif[/img]

It will be interesting in the next 2 movies to see PJ's take on Faramir's understanding of his brother's character.

Can't wait to see it on big screen too, yeah!... and have all your povs then [img]smilies/smile.gif[/img]

[HerenIstarion]

Brought up as supplement to LotR -- Book 2 - Chapter 10 - The Breaking of the Fellowship discussion