Prisoner of Númenor Planning/Discussion Thread - The Barrow-Downs Discussion Forum

Sophia the Thunder Mistress · 01-25-2005, 01:58 AM

I got these questions in a pm today, and I can't say I know the answers to them.

Quote:

What of carrying weapons openly throughout Númenore? Do citizens carry swords on their belts at this time?

Also, I know that they were taller than all other men, but how tall is that in feet and inches. Probibly this isnt ever written by tolkien, but is there any precident set on the board telling their height?

Anybody able to help?

Sophia

piosenniel · 01-25-2005, 03:44 AM

About weapons . . .

Swords were not worn in Numenor:

Quote:

Among the wrights of the Edain were weaponsmiths, and they had with the teaching of the Noldor acquired great skill in the forging of swords, of axe-blades, and of spearheads and knives. Swords the Guild of Weaponsmiths still made, for the preservation of the craft, though most of their labour was spent on the fashioning of tools for the uses of peace. The King and most of the great chieftains possessed swords as heirlooms of their fathers; and at times they would still give a sword as a gift to their heirs. A new sword was made for the King's Heir to be given to him on the day on which his title was conferred. But no man wore a sword in Numenor, and for long years few indeed were the weapons of warlike intent that were made in the land. Axes and spears and bows they had, and shooting with bows was a chief sport and pastime of the Numenoreans. In later days, in the wars upon Middle-earth, it was the bows of the Numenoreans that were most greatly feared. "The Men of the Sea", it was said, 'send before them a great cloud, as a rain turned to serpents, or a black hail tipped with steel'; and in those days the great cohorts of the King's Archers used bows made of hollow steel, with black-feathered arrows a full ell long from point to notch.

-- from Unfinished Tales, "A Description of Numenor"

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

About height . . .

Actually Tolkien did give an indication in the UT (Unfinished Tales): Look HERE at this B-D thread.

For the actual reference see: Unfinished Tales, "Disaster of the Gladden Fields", 'Appendix - Numenorean Linear Measures'.

~*~ Pio

mark12_30 · 01-25-2005, 06:42 AM

Pio, I'm still pondering the possibilities. Maybe Elendil's first mate. Maybe a cabin-boy. Elendil's tempting. But since I'm waffling, if anyone else wants a particular character, go ahead and let them have it.

Regin Hardhammer · 01-25-2005, 06:50 PM

First of all, could you give me clarification on "Almaida". I checked The Encyclopedia of Arda, Fonstad's Atlas, and the indexes to Silm and UT. I didn't find it. When I searched on google under Almaida and Numenor, I brought up only three references: two were back to this very thread and one was to a website that mentioned UT, but I still couldn't find the term in UT. Could someone give me a clue? Are we talking about a haven in the western part of the isle?

Wouldn't a group based in the west of Numenor have to have a reason to be there? I assume it would have been particularly dangerous not to go east with the rest of the faithful. Perhaps, even though Amandil never returned, there was still some distant hope that the Elves would send ships to help the faithful. Could our purpose have been to wait and watch for them?

I was thinking of having my character be in the employment of Elendil, a shipowner bringing supplies to the remnant of the faithful left in the west on a small, sleek schooner, perhaps unloading the goods in some secluded cove. My character could also bring news of Elendil's intended departure and the prisoner's capture, or that could be left fo some other character to do. In any case, I could ditch my ship once I realized the group had to go over land to save the prisoner. Would this work with what is being planned?

I am finding it difficult to develop a character until I know why a remnant of the faithful stayed in the west and what the plot will be. I have come up with some names, but I'm not sure about the cases and/or grammar. I would appreciate if anyone else is an expert in Adunaic and/or Sindarin to provide grammatical help.

I chose the first name in Adunaic, Azarmanô, which means azar- the old form of star. Manô means spirit. The closest Sindarin name would be Elkhor. El means star and khor means fiery spirit.

My last name will be Hazadbawîba. What a mouthful!

This means seven winds that refers to my family's nautical ties. In Sindaran this is Wawaotok. Believe it or not. Hopefully I won't have to use the last names too much!

If anybody has any suggestions about any of this I am open to them.

- Regin

littlemanpoet · 01-25-2005, 09:08 PM

I like the idea of Vinyalonde, although Dol Amroth seemed pretty cool to me.

Silmarien was born in S.A. 521. Aldarion was born in S.A. 700. That's 179 years later. Two generations. But you're talking about his daughter, Tar-Ancalimë, his eldest daughter, first Queen by law of Numenor. That would leave the Melethroch in the line of Elros - at least a little longer - which is okay. But maybe the Melethroch clan should be descended from one of Tar-Surion's two sisters, who were both older than he, and refused the sceptre. That would make the Melethroch clan extant as of, say, S.A. 1394, when Surion took the sceptre and by which time his sisters were probably wed to some likely Numenorean man.

Andunié? Not Armenolos? Okay. I thought that if we were some secret clan that was actually trying to make a difference we would have to be well hidden in the seat of governance itself, but maybe your thought was otherwise?

Group title? A rep from Sophia? Woo hoo!

"Nimruzîrim" = "Elf-friends" - but that's probably a bit too obvious.

Balakzir = Ship lovers - too common
Bawabzir = Wind lovers - maybe just as common
huzun = ears
hazad = seven
Hazadhuzun? = The Seven Ears? (chuckle)

Abanaparu's physical description:

6'8". Which is probably just a little humble for a Numenorean. Oh well. (I thought of Aragorn as 6'6" when I first read LotR). Raven black hair, clear face, long nose but not too long. Not too full lips. High cheek bones. Lean but not thin. Grey eyes. His war and hunting weapon is the bow. He keeps a long knife with him, an ancestral one with a silver hilt. Its blade is straight and slender but strong.

Regin, the Numenorean handles are mouthfuls on purpose. The Sindarin would be - ah - not altered but - let's say, refined - to sound pleasing to the Elvish (or Mannish) ear.

Regin Hardhammer · 01-25-2005, 09:22 PM

Quote:

The Sindarin would be - ah - not altered but - let's say, refined - to sound pleasing to the Elvish (or Mannish) ear.

Littlemanpoet --

Whoops! How about if I trade in "Wawaotok" for "Liwaiwa" that can mean "Many Winds"? It sounds a bit more graceful than the other I came up with.

I think I can live with Elkhor. It doesn't sound that different than Elrond.

I hope this is an improvement.

****************

Sophia

We cross posted. Many thanks to you and Pio the Loremaster. I didn't check the footnotes in UT!

I'll start trying to work on my profile.

littlemanpoet · 01-26-2005, 02:05 PM

Resident Linguist? Me?!?

I know next to nothing about the grammar of Sindarin or Adúnaic. I just go by what the websites I found tell me, what sounds good to the ear, and what rolls of the tongue - - more or less - -

Well, Regin, that's an alteration instead of a refinement. It's up to you, of course.

This is Sindarin according to the site I use; take a look
here

many = limb
wind = gwae, thúl; plural would be: thyl

Many winds: Limbethyl. I stuck an "e" in the middle because it rolls off the tongue better that way. I don't know if I have any right to do that, but I just go by feel.

Where did you get "Wawaotok" and "Liwaiwa" from?

Sophia the Thunder Mistress · 01-25-2005, 09:20 PM

Regin-

About Almaida:

Quote:

Although descriptive rather than narrative, I have included selections from my father's account of Númenor, more especially as it concerns the physical nature of the Island, since it clarifies and naturally accompanies the tale of Aldarion and Erendis. This account was certainly in existence by 1965, and was probably written not long before that.

I have redrawn the map from a little rapid sketch, the only one, as it appears, that my father ever made of Númenor. Only names or features found on the original have been entered on the redrawing. In addition, the original shows another haven on the Bay of Andúnië, not far to the westward of Andúnië itself; the name is hard to read, but is almost certainly Almaida. This does not, so far as I am aware, occur elsewhere.

-From the Footnotes of the Unfinished Tales, quote courtesy of Pio the Loremaster

I don't think that we're going to actually use Almaida. It seems that Andunie will work just as well. As far as the reason we have remained behind, I think your idea works very well, Regin. If the Faithful were (not exactly expecting, but...) hopeful that there would be aid coming from Eressea or Valinor then it would be sensible for them to have left a token "welcoming committee" so to speak.

Any major objections? If not, I think we can take that as our reason... do you have any brilliant ideas about names for the group?

I love your names too. Particularly the idea that your family name means "seven winds" Littlemanpoet is the one to ask about names. He seems to be our resident linguist. I'm not so good, myself.

I'm going to give you guys a taste of some of the family connections building. My brother (in RL) TomBrady12 is building a character that more than likely will function as Kathaani's protector and who will be a relative of some kind. This is the pm from him where he briefly describes his character:

Quote:

I was thinking that maybe his father might have been a kind of high profile member of the faithful, who was captured and sacrificed to Melkor. He was kinda scared by this and spent a number of years in middle earth, basically wandering and looing for solitude, before returning and he ends up joining the faithful not terribly long before this takes place (year or two). does this sound workable, im certainly open to any suggestions, ideas, or help.

Just so you guys get a taste of what's going on behind the scenes.

Sophia

01-25-2005, 06:42 AM	#3
mark12_30 Stormdancer of Doom Join Date: Jan 2002 Location: Elvish singing is not a thing to miss, in June under the stars Posts: 4,349	Pio, I'm still pondering the possibilities. Maybe Elendil's first mate. Maybe a cabin-boy. Elendil's tempting. But since I'm waffling, if anyone else wants a particular character, go ahead and let them have it. __________________ ...down to the water to see the elves dance and sing upon the midsummer's eve.

01-25-2005, 06:50 PM	#4
Regin Hardhammer Shade of Carn Dûm Join Date: Feb 2004 Location: Tumunzahar/Nogrod Posts: 364	First of all, could you give me clarification on "Almaida". I checked The Encyclopedia of Arda, Fonstad's Atlas, and the indexes to Silm and UT. I didn't find it. When I searched on google under Almaida and Numenor, I brought up only three references: two were back to this very thread and one was to a website that mentioned UT, but I still couldn't find the term in UT. Could someone give me a clue? Are we talking about a haven in the western part of the isle? Wouldn't a group based in the west of Numenor have to have a reason to be there? I assume it would have been particularly dangerous not to go east with the rest of the faithful. Perhaps, even though Amandil never returned, there was still some distant hope that the Elves would send ships to help the faithful. Could our purpose have been to wait and watch for them? I was thinking of having my character be in the employment of Elendil, a shipowner bringing supplies to the remnant of the faithful left in the west on a small, sleek schooner, perhaps unloading the goods in some secluded cove. My character could also bring news of Elendil's intended departure and the prisoner's capture, or that could be left fo some other character to do. In any case, I could ditch my ship once I realized the group had to go over land to save the prisoner. Would this work with what is being planned? I am finding it difficult to develop a character until I know why a remnant of the faithful stayed in the west and what the plot will be. I have come up with some names, but I'm not sure about the cases and/or grammar. I would appreciate if anyone else is an expert in Adunaic and/or Sindarin to provide grammatical help. I chose the first name in Adunaic, Azarmanô, which means azar- the old form of star. Manô means spirit. The closest Sindarin name would be Elkhor. El means star and khor means fiery spirit. My last name will be Hazadbawîba. What a mouthful! This means seven winds that refers to my family's nautical ties. In Sindaran this is Wawaotok. Believe it or not. Hopefully I won't have to use the last names too much! If anybody has any suggestions about any of this I am open to them. - Regin __________________ For once I myself saw with my own eyes the Sibyl at Cumae hanging in a bottle, and when the boys said to her: 'Sibyl, what do you want?' she replied, 'I want to die.'" Last edited by Regin Hardhammer; 01-25-2005 at 09:33 PM.

01-26-2005, 02:05 PM	#7
littlemanpoet Itinerant Songster Join Date: Jan 2002 Location: The Edge of Faerie Posts: 7,066	Resident Linguist? Me?!? I know next to nothing about the grammar of Sindarin or Adúnaic. I just go by what the websites I found tell me, what sounds good to the ear, and what rolls of the tongue - - more or less - - Well, Regin, that's an alteration instead of a refinement. It's up to you, of course. This is Sindarin according to the site I use; take a look here many = limb wind = gwae, thúl; plural would be: thyl Many winds: Limbethyl. I stuck an "e" in the middle because it rolls off the tongue better that way. I don't know if I have any right to do that, but I just go by feel. Where did you get "Wawaotok" and "Liwaiwa" from? Last edited by littlemanpoet; 01-26-2005 at 02:09 PM.

01-25-2005, 09:08 PM	#5
littlemanpoet Itinerant Songster Join Date: Jan 2002 Location: The Edge of Faerie Posts: 7,066	I like the idea of Vinyalonde, although Dol Amroth seemed pretty cool to me. Silmarien was born in S.A. 521. Aldarion was born in S.A. 700. That's 179 years later. Two generations. But you're talking about his daughter, Tar-Ancalimë, his eldest daughter, first Queen by law of Numenor. That would leave the Melethroch in the line of Elros - at least a little longer - which is okay. But maybe the Melethroch clan should be descended from one of Tar-Surion's two sisters, who were both older than he, and refused the sceptre. That would make the Melethroch clan extant as of, say, S.A. 1394, when Surion took the sceptre and by which time his sisters were probably wed to some likely Numenorean man. Andunié? Not Armenolos? Okay. I thought that if we were some secret clan that was actually trying to make a difference we would have to be well hidden in the seat of governance itself, but maybe your thought was otherwise? Group title? A rep from Sophia? Woo hoo! "Nimruzîrim" = "Elf-friends" - but that's probably a bit too obvious. Balakzir = Ship lovers - too common Bawabzir = Wind lovers - maybe just as common huzun = ears hazad = seven Hazadhuzun? = The Seven Ears? (chuckle) Abanaparu's physical description: 6'8". Which is probably just a little humble for a Numenorean. Oh well. (I thought of Aragorn as 6'6" when I first read LotR). Raven black hair, clear face, long nose but not too long. Not too full lips. High cheek bones. Lean but not thin. Grey eyes. His war and hunting weapon is the bow. He keeps a long knife with him, an ancestral one with a silver hilt. Its blade is straight and slender but strong. Regin, the Numenorean handles are mouthfuls on purpose. The Sindarin would be - ah - not altered but - let's say, refined - to sound pleasing to the Elvish (or Mannish) ear.