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View Poll Results: Do balrogs have wings? | |||
Yes | 114 | 58.16% | |
No | 82 | 41.84% | |
Voters: 196. You may not vote on this poll |
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01-24-2005, 09:48 PM | #121 | |
Dead Serious
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How do you evoke "terror" in a visual image? I don't know the answer, but the answer of many artists would seem to be to fall back on motifs familiar to us as evil, such as horns and pointed tails (and wings? )
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01-24-2005, 10:06 PM | #122 |
Scion of The Faithful
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It seems that Tolkien had already answered this question.
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01-25-2005, 12:00 AM | #123 |
Haunting Spirit
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How does "I won't answer" answer the question?
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01-25-2005, 08:10 AM | #124 | |
Late Istar
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Formendacil wrote:
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But that's just me. |
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01-25-2005, 11:06 AM | #125 |
Late Istar
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It occurs to me that I haven't voted. So, for what it's worth . . .
Yes, all seven Balrogs had wings. |
01-25-2005, 02:11 PM | #126 | |||
Deadnight Chanter
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But such a claim by Aiwendil opens up the trouser of time for yours truly to slip in his theory (posted on the Downs long ago too ): There are Balrogs, and there are balrogs: Quote:
But my statement above stands as it is - hosts of balrogs indeed marched on feet, otherwise, why should 'boarding' Gondolin walls have been such a problem? Whilst Balrogs had at most 'shadow' wrapped around in the likeness of wings Still more, at times my dentist qualifies for the title of Tormenting Demon as well... cheers
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01-25-2005, 02:31 PM | #127 | |
Corpus Cacophonous
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Perhaps they reserved their aeronautic abilities for formation flying displays and fly-pasts at Angband victory parades.
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01-25-2005, 04:08 PM | #128 |
Ghost Prince of Cardolan
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I do not wish to enter this argument again, having already had my say, however I would just like to point out one small thing. The only published work of Tolkien regarding Balrogs is LotR. We cannot guess as to whether he would have been happy with the finished Silmarillion, nor anything else published after his death, he was a revisionist. Whatever is written in The Histories, are thoughts on the subject, who knows what his final version would of been. Quoting from unpublished works, to give strength to your argument is wrong. As I said earlier, the only thing we truly know Tolkien was happy with, are the words in Lotr, so read what they say.
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01-25-2005, 04:10 PM | #129 |
Shade of Carn Dûm
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Re:
I can't believe anything in the History of Middle Earth is 'lawful canon' as far as the story goes.
I believe if something doesn't make it into the actual story, all versions aside, it isn't canon. However, the thing about Balrogs and the HoME are that, aside from not being canon, it does give some more evidence at least to what Tolkien originally envisioned things looking like. Of course, if those depictions didn't make it to the books, tough break. Anyway, it's not that hard to depict / draw / render something with vague features. Just use lots of black. The darker, the more accurate. After all, if the Balrog's shadow was enough that it actually smothered out and blocked view of a gaping rift filled with fire, it must have been pretty dark. Anyway, if you look at things this way, you'll get another notion. The Lord of the Rings (let's can all Silm references for a moment) was supposed to have been written by Frodo and Sam, with a lot of account filled in by Merry and Pippin, and a fair bit of old history and higher matters that happened told to them by Aragorn. Gimli and Legolas theoretically kept in touch with the Hobbits and helped too. So the idea is, Frodo (with help) was describing what he saw in that chamber. And it's pretty obvious he didn't see much, if his description is that vague. It seems pretty clear that all the members of the Fellowship could see Gandalf pretty clearly, and the chamber behind and around the Balrog was pitch black, filled with smoke. The only thing that gave the impression of man shape in the darkest of dark places was probably the fact that the Balrog's hair (hair-like shape) was on fire, and highlighting the "humanoid silhouette" of the Balrog from behind. Trying to humanize, or even 'demonize' the Balrog in the traditional 'demon' sense, just doesn't do it justice. It's a spirit of fire, which is physically incarnate and wrapped in shadow. Fire, shadow ... neither thing has solid substance (clearly the Balrog does, otherwise Gandalf couldn't have grappled with it or stabbed at it). If it had no solid mass, it's own weight falling off the mountain couldn't kill it, and it wouldn't have needed wings to fly, being a gaseous entity. Well, that's my two cents for the moment.
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01-25-2005, 04:22 PM | #130 |
Ghost Prince of Cardolan
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Yes and why in all creation have wings that are of no use. it does not fit into the way Tolkien told stories. If they had wings, he would have given them flight. Like the dragons.
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01-25-2005, 09:14 PM | #131 | ||
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Quote:
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Last edited by Nilpaurion Felagund; 01-25-2005 at 09:24 PM. Reason: adding stuff |
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01-26-2005, 08:27 AM | #132 |
Ghost Prince of Cardolan
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Sorry I do not go for the "What ifs", I only read what is. Show me where Tolkien says anything like that and I will conceed to your point, where does it ever say in the published (during his lifetime) works, that they ever flew. The only person who bereft them of the power of flight was Tolkien, by excluding it. This thread has a lot of suppositions in it. The only man that knew the Truth was Tolkien, and his are the only words that count. I can forgive our desire for more, I do it all the time. Our wish that this great piece of work could somehow have told us everything, but did`nt. So when discussing the written word of Tolkien, we must stick to what is plainly written and not let our imagination go too far. When I cast off this mortal coil, I like many of you will seek out The Prof, and ask him a multitude of questions. I assure you somewhere near the top will be the words Wings and Balrogs.
Last edited by narfforc; 01-26-2005 at 08:31 AM. |
01-26-2005, 08:42 AM | #133 | |
Deadnight Chanter
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So, even most 'outrageous' blunderings sometimes made during the process should not be taken as personal offense never ever ever never. Still more suppositions are not meant to be offenses. peace
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01-26-2005, 09:01 AM | #134 |
Ghost Prince of Cardolan
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I agree, it is nice to discuss possibilities, to go beyond the written word, as long as we keep our feet on the ground. I am just not a big fan of "What If", especially when there is no basis for them. How can we get from the description of,
and the SHADOW about it reached out LIKE two vast wings. to discussing whether the were bereft of flight in the dim past we know nothing about. The sentence does not say. and its two vast wings reached out like shadows. The important word here is LIKE. This translates into english as. 1. Resembling, similar to 2. Having characterisics of. These are the words that Tolkien wrote, and as a Professor of English he would have known what LIKE meant |
01-26-2005, 09:26 AM | #135 | |
Deadnight Chanter
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I breath when I sleep...or do I sleep when I breath?
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Yet my previous post just meant what it meant. It is not good to be involved on such a personal level To repeat myself from a little bit earlier on, after all, the message I see the balrog bearing on (besides linguistic Vala+Rauko musings and derivatives, besides plot and tension purposes) is that even the most noble and radiant creature may fall, and the higher it originally stood, the lower its fall would be. Repetition of Morgoth/Sauron theme on a slightly minor scale. In this respect, it does not even matter (though may still cause a lot of interest) that much whether it had wings, six teeth or a floating kidney cheers
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01-26-2005, 09:52 AM | #136 | ||
Late Istar
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narfforc wrote:
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That, I think, is why the Balrog wing question, the Elvish ears question, and the Tom Bombadil question are so notorious - not because they're any more interesting than other questions, but because they are simply not answerable, in any kind of satisfactory way. HerenIstarion wrote: Quote:
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01-26-2005, 10:52 AM | #137 |
Gibbering Gibbet
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OED rules!
Here, best as I can figure it, is the etymology of the word balrog:
bal is a form of the archaic bale, which is OE for "fire" rog is a form of OE roge which means a "pyre" So that makes sense, bal+rog = fire+fire. No allusion to wings or flying though. . . Some other interesting tidbits: ballyragging (from "to ballyrag"), means to attack someone with abusive language rog means "to shake a person or thing" Not really relevant, but interesting notheless.
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01-26-2005, 11:26 AM | #138 |
Ghost Prince of Cardolan
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I would like to say on a lighter note
The Balrog could not even float When it fell, from on high We all know it could not fly. Some may laugh and some may hoot But it didnt have a parachute If its wings, it did but hide Then why did it, just not glide. Some may think it was like a cloak But come now, that`s beyond the joke If wings it had, what were there shape I heard it said like Batmans cape. I met a Balrog once before He came a-knocking at my door I asked him then, "Where are your wings" Upset he said, "I never had them things" Please forgive my little joke Fun at you, I do not poke A laugh at this, I could not pass I hope you all don`t think me crass. NOMORIHERE |
01-26-2005, 12:05 PM | #139 | |
Dead Serious
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It should perhaps be noted that there is no evidence that Tolkien's perception of Balrogs as wingless ever changed. There are many examples of elements in the Tale remaining unchanged from its conception circa 1920 until its last known form in the early 1970s. And their is no real evidence that Tolkien ever changed his perception of this aspect of the Balrogs. - A thought from another convinced no-winger
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01-26-2005, 06:09 PM | #140 | ||
Late Istar
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Formendacil:
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Fordim wrote: Quote:
bal Sindarin, from primitive Quendian root BAL- = "power" rog Sindarin, from root primitive Quendian RUK- = "demon" |
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01-26-2005, 06:55 PM | #141 |
Corpus Cacophonous
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01-26-2005, 08:13 PM | #142 | |
Scion of The Faithful
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For example, I wouldn't say Orcs have wings, even though Tolkien did not explicitly say they did not have wings.
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01-26-2005, 08:14 PM | #143 | |||||
Wight
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Here are my thoughts on that article.
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1)swiftly they arose--As he points out himself they were underground but even if that were not so it does not follow that they flew. Arose can be interpreted as they were in a sleep or simply idle and when they heard their master's cry they came forth once more. Indeed this is normally how I interpret the word when used in such a context. 2)they passed with winged speed--"winged speed" is an ambigous term. "Winged" is used here as an adjective to describe the word speed not the manner of their travel. Here Tolkien compares the speed of the Balrogs to the speed of flight. As a general rule one does not compare a thing to itself. So here "winged speed" means that they traveled with the speed of a winged creature. Actually when interpreted this way it becomes an argument against Balrogs flying. 3)passed....over Hithlum--this one needs no rewriting, one can run over land just as one can fly over it. Also there is the example of Fingolfin and his horse. 4)Tempest of fire--I see no reason that "tempest" should denote something coming from the sky. As I see it "tempest" could mean either sky or land it rather refers to the fire of the Balrogs erupting in their rath an covering the "battle field" of Lammoth. So the new sentence would be: "Swiftly they came forth once again, and they passed with the speed of one in flight over(as I said I don't think that this need be changed at all) Hithlum, they came to Lammoth with there flames wreathed about them in a great tempest." There you have it. Quote:
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I could go on but I am already late for something so I will leave it at that for now.
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01-26-2005, 11:38 PM | #144 | |
Dead Serious
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Quite frankly, Mr. Martinez does exactly what this and every other Balrog-related thread in every Tolkien-related forum across the web has done, and like just about every other fan, he has joined one or the other respective camps. His is that of the wingers. Mine is that of the non-wingers. Each have their arsenal of evidence and it depends, with almost every piece, on the reader's perceived intention of the original author's mind. There are times that I think we have gone so far into the minds of the characters and their world, that we think we have gone into the mind of Tolkien himself. We haven't, exactly, of course, but it is still a game that we play. Did Balrogs have wings? Of course not. It says so right there in the Lord of the Rings. If you read it the RIGHT way...
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01-27-2005, 01:23 AM | #145 | ||
Deadnight Chanter
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Aiwendil - minor point
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1910's re: quite so. Just trying to see the picture as a whole. (Cf threads like Two Gandalfs and Evil Things)
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01-27-2005, 03:16 AM | #146 |
Ghost Prince of Cardolan
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Like I keep saying, people are quoting things that Tolkien may have wrote, but did not ultimately sanction, You cannot quote from The Silmarillion, it was published after his death, and you cannot know if seeing that sentence he would have been happy leaving it in, especially after what had already been published in LotR, the SHADOW spread out LIKE wings.
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01-27-2005, 06:17 AM | #147 | |||
Deadnight Chanter
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Do not misunderstand me - I do rely heavier on what is published and/or what represents later view of the author, but still, I generally tend to view the legendarium as a whole (one may say, historically, or even 'historiographically'), as a complex compilation of sources. Quoting myself from C-Thread: Quote:
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Following said, there is a place in my head for hosts of marching corporate balrogs and for 7 Balrogs corporate too but wrapped in shadow (even if two types of balrog be purely speculation of yours truly, after all. Freedom of the reader? I suppose, but inside the boundaries set by the author. See C-Thread again) On the other hand, as any historian may agree, it happens that even most smart&clever bookworm may err reading his sources. I'm 100% sure it is not me who's erring in ripping balrog wings off (if they were there in the first place), I know I'm right, and, following narfforc, I proclaim the truth to stand as 'balrogs had no wings', but (and here we part company with narfforc ) source read-outs may differ, so everybody, who can not be convinced is welcome to have their own opinion on the subject PS Funny how I, having proclaimed in one of my previous that 'physical form does not count that much' spent precious hour pondering the subject (I lost count of 'agains' to go at the end of such sentence )
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Egroeg Ihkhsal - Would you believe in the love at first sight? - Yes I'm certain that it happens all the time! Last edited by HerenIstarion; 01-27-2005 at 06:37 AM. |
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01-27-2005, 08:13 AM | #148 | |||
Late Istar
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HerenIstarion wrote:
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Or perhaps there are hosts of "Demons of Torment" and a seven powerful "Demons of Might"? |
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01-27-2005, 08:53 AM | #149 | ||||
Illustrious Ulair
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If we imagine German troops approaching through the mist & smoke of no man's land, spraying flame from their dreadful Flammenwerfers, I think its easy to see where Tolkien got the idea from. We can even see a possible origin for their 'whips of flame': Quote:
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01-27-2005, 09:05 AM | #150 | |||||
Deadnight Chanter
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Egroeg Ihkhsal - Would you believe in the love at first sight? - Yes I'm certain that it happens all the time! |
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01-27-2005, 09:17 AM | #151 | |
La Belle Dame sans Merci
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Before I thought of the wings in terms of an ostrich, or a dodo (<-also explains that inconvenient extinction), but after Saucie's article, I'm all for too big to fly around under ground. Sorry if this post is a little admonishing, hurried, or offensive to anyone, but I'm in a bit of a hurry and have about 20 seconds before I have to leave. Regards, Fea
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01-27-2005, 10:30 AM | #152 | ||
Late Istar
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Davem wrote:
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Anyone who's really interested in that issue might want to look at this discussion in the New Silmarillion project. HerenIstarion wrote: Quote:
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01-27-2005, 10:39 AM | #153 | ||
Gibbering Gibbet
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(Very interesting link and information, though.) narfforc: from LotR, written by J.R.R. Tolkien and published in his lifetime: Quote:
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01-27-2005, 11:30 AM | #154 |
Wight
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OK Fordim, you are just trying to annoy us no wingers aren't you? I must admit I gritted my teeth when I first saw what you wrote, you know full well the argument about the meaning of that quote so I will not bring it up again.
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01-27-2005, 12:21 PM | #155 | |
Gibbering Gibbet
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1) The statement "and the shadow about it reached out like two vast wings" conclusively proves that there are no wings, only shadows that look like wings. (This is a common occurence in the English language, in which the following sentence, "That animal looks like a dog" conclusively proves that said creature is a cat.) 2) Having proved incontrovertibly with the above sentence that the great shadowy forms that look like wings are in fact not wings, we can finally interpret the extraordinarily ambiguous claim that "its wings were spread from wall to wall" as meaning "its great wing-like shadows spread out from wall to wall". How could anyone disagree with such unassailable logic?
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01-27-2005, 12:22 PM | #156 | ||
Dead Serious
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Tolkien felt bound by what had appeared in print, hence the final editions of the Hobbit and the Lord of the Rings must be taken as solidly canonical. Anything else, while quite often demonstrably provable as Tolkien's last word on the subject, and quite often in step with his published works, cannot be given as high a proven standing, especially on matters where he changed his mind repeatedly, and did not seem to have made it up conclusively. Therefore, with regards to the great Balrog debate, the only published references we have to go by are those in the Lord of the Rings. As Mr Martinez in the above article notes, and as I believe is correct, at the time of writing, the Balrogs (whatever their in-story origin) were wingless, and couldn't fly, and Tolkien wrote the chapter "The Bridge of Khazad-dum" with this intent. Since the author never changed these passages, it must be held the Balrog in the Lord of the Rings is wingless. As already noted, the author spent great pains to keep his texts consistent. Thus, had he wanted winged Balrogs, he would surely have edited the passage in the Second Edition. Most likely, he never noticed the discrepancy, but that in itself is telling. I personally feel that it shows that Tolkien never changed his mind about Balrogs (whatever their origins) being wingless.
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01-27-2005, 01:02 PM | #157 | |||
Wight
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01-27-2005, 02:36 PM | #158 | |
Deadnight Chanter
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Thanks for the link - I enjoyed evening of remembrance, re-reading that 'clash of civilizations' there . In case we move or update again, and the link is lost (as most of my linking of yore was), I repeat it here with the title and author: Bye bye Balrogs by jallanite is the place Aiwendil invited us to visit cheers
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01-27-2005, 05:17 PM | #159 |
Ghost Prince of Cardolan
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I flew down the motorway last month, the policeman that stopped me didnt care if I was a shadow or not, he still booked me.
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01-28-2005, 08:15 AM | #160 |
Corpus Cacophonous
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Just before he stopped you, did you catch sight of something bright in your rear-view mirror like flashing headlights?
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