Gandalf's Staff

[Elladan and Elrohir]

I don't believe that Saruman's taunt (regarding the "staffs of the Five Wizards") means that the staffs themselves are very powerful. He's referring to his self-deceit that Gandalf wants to rule everything, and be predominant over all, including the other Istari (he also mentions the Keys of Barad-dur, which would be symbolic of a victory over Sauron).

I think that Gandalf breaking his staff on the Bridge of Khazad-dum is symbolic of his sacrifice. By breaking the bridge, and the staff with it, he is dooming both himself and the Balrog to death, assuring that the rest of the Company (and thus the Ring) will make it out of Moria. I think he knows before he breaks the bridge that he and the Balrog will both die, and he accepts it so that the cause of the Free Peoples will survive. As a result, he is rewarded by being allowed to return to Middle-earth with enhanced power, to lead the cause of the Free Peoples.

That's my take on those two points of this truly fascinating discussion.

[alatar]

Originally Posted by Elladan and Elrohir

I don't believe that Saruman's taunt (regarding the "staffs of the Five Wizards") means that the staffs themselves are very powerful. He's referring to his self-deceit that Gandalf wants to rule everything, and be predominant over all, including the other Istari (he also mentions the Keys of Barad-dur, which would be symbolic of a victory over Sauron).

Agreed. The staffs have great symbolic meaning. If Gandalf were to 'have them,' then I would take that as meaning he 'owned' or was more powerful than the Four.

And so to have a broken staff would mean what?

[Sophia the Thunder Mistress]

I thought I would call attention to an interesting tidbit I ran across in the CbC forum which has relevance here:

Which brings me to Gandalf’s staff. The fact that he (far more subtly than Aragorn) insists on retaining it [during the scene before Aragorn, Legolas, Gimli, and Gandalf enter Theoden's hall and are asked to give up weapons] lends some credence to the theory that the Staves of the Istari were more than symbolic. I wonder whether he would have been able to achieve what he does once within the Hall without it? The suggestion is that it at least enhances his power to dispel Wormtongue’s webs of deceit.

- Wisdom courtesy of Saucy on this thread. Clarification in [brackets] is mine.

I thought it was far too relevant a fact not to be added to this discussion, but unfortunately, I can't take credit for noticing it myself.

Sophia

[Nilpaurion Felagund]

I have had my say regarding staves in general, and I'm sticking to it.

And, in regards to this:

I think that Gandalf breaking his staff on the Bridge of Khazad-dum is symbolic of his sacrifice. By breaking the bridge, and the staff with it, he is dooming both himself and the Balrog to death, assuring that the rest of the Company (and thus the Ring) will make it out of Moria. I think he knows before he breaks the bridge that he and the Balrog will both die, and he accepts it so that the cause of the Free Peoples will survive. As a result, he is rewarded by being allowed to return to Middle-earth with enhanced power, to lead the cause of the Free Peoples. (Elladan and Elrohir)

But wouldn't leaving the Fellowship without his guidance constitute a shirking of his responsibility? Sure, everything turned out well during the time Aragorn led the fellowship, but what if Gandalf hadn't met them in Fangorn, because Gandalf hadn't been allowed to return?

Here's my view: Everything Gandalf did on that Bridge was just to scare ol' Roggie off. He could fight with it, yes, but he would lose time that he didn't have. But when the Balrog insisted on crossing the Bridge, he had to make sure it didn't reach the other end; ergo, the Bridge-breaking.

I think the Balrog's whip getting him was just pure coincidence. Although a good coincidence at that.

[Kuruharan]

Everything Gandalf did on that Bridge was just to scare ol' Roggie off. He could fight with it, yes, but he would lose time that he didn't have. But when the Balrog insisted on crossing the Bridge, he had to make sure it didn't reach the other end; ergo, the Bridge-breaking.

I'm not so sure that Gandalf expected to scare the Balrog off. The Balrog may have been mighty curious about this odd critter in front of him, a being which he knew to be Ainu (which the Balrog would probably have found odd enough) but not "dressed" as one. Uncertainty, but not necessarily fear, could possibly have been his dominant feeling.

I think Gandalf planned to break the bridge from the beginning. What better way to cut off pursuit?

[Nilpaurion Felagund]

This Balrog ran away from Eönwë's buddies. It knows fear.

Maybe not from Gandy, but there's a chance . . .

[Kuruharan]

I did not say it did not know fear. I said it was not necessarily afraid at that moment.

Eönwë had a lot more guys with him too.

[Essex]

Originally Posted by Kuruharan

I'm not so sure that Gandalf expected to scare the Balrog off. The Balrog may have been mighty curious about this odd critter in front of him, a being which he knew to be Ainu (which the Balrog would probably have found odd enough) but not "dressed" as one. Uncertainty, but not necessarily fear, could possibly have been his dominant feeling.

We also have to keep in mind that the two had already had a confrontation at the Chamber. (where they battled each other by the door using their 'Spells' and 'Words of Command'). So the Balrog should have been at least a little WARY of Gandalf at this point. I believe this is why Gandalf first tried to at least drag the Balrog to a stalemate on the bridge, instead of fighting him straight off.

[alatar]

Originally Posted by Essex

I believe this is why Gandalf first tried to at least drag the Balrog to a stalemate on the bridge, instead of fighting him straight off.

I think that Gandalf thought that there was a chance that the Balrog (or whatever it was that he perceived behind the Chamber door) may be buried/hampered by the destruction of the door etc. The Bridge, being the way out (though there must have been other exits as the Orcs get out later that night), would be a good idea if it weren't held against the Nine Walkers as a few (or just Gandalf) could hold it while the others got out into the daylight. And if Gandalf could break the Bridge irregardless of Balrog appearance, the Orc pursuit would be slowed.

The Balrog complicated matters somewhat, but the same plan could work if Gandalf broke the Bridge, because wings or no, it seemed to me that the Balrog wasn't jumping the chasm. It might have been even more important to break the Bridge at that point as I'm not sure that the Balrog would have wilted in the daylight.

[Kuruharan]

It might have been even more important to break the Bridge at that point as I'm not sure that the Balrog would have wilted in the daylight.

What?

I'm not entirely sure I follow. The sunlight would not have particularly damaged the Balrog very much, but he probably would not have liked it.

However, I cannot imagine the Balrog leaving Moria for any reason whatsoever.

[The Saucepan Man]

Originally Posted by Kuruharan

However, I cannot imagine the Balrog leaving Moria for any reason whatsoever.

The Ring perhaps?

As a Maia, could he have sensed its presence? Assuming that he was independent of Sauron, the lure would have been great for him. A Balrog could go a long way with the One Ring. And if he was under Sauron's command, then he would almost certainly have been after it.

[alatar]

Originally Posted by Kuruharan

What?

I'm not entirely sure I follow. The sunlight would not have particularly damaged the Balrog very much, but he probably would not have liked it.

However, I cannot imagine the Balrog leaving Moria for any reason whatsoever.

Sorry for not being more clear. My point was that Gandalf hoped that it were daylight when they exited the East-Gate as this would deter Orc pursuit, but I don't think that daylight would have stopped the Balrog at all. Something more was needed to inhibit pursuit, such as breaking the Bridge.

And I think that it would have left Moria just to continue the battle with Gandalf. I know that it didn't appear after the battle of the burned Dwarves (sorry, can't remeber the name), but those were Dwarves and it was a bit before Sauron arose again in power. It may not have been subservient to Sauron, but I think that at the least the Balrog was in league with him. And I think that it says in the text that 'Sauron was putting out the call to all evil things.' Surely the Balrog would have responded in some fashion.

And it's always been my assumption that the Balrog was in some part responsible for what happened on top of Caradhras.

[Nilpaurion Felagund]

It may not have been subservient to Sauron, but I think that at the least the Balrog was in league with him. And I think that it says in the text that 'Sauron was putting out the call to all evil things.' Surely the Balrog would have responded in come fashion. (alatar)

Let us not forget that the Balrog and Sauron both were servants of Melkor. There is no point whatsoever to believe that they are now allies or something. They fell under the dominion of Melkor because he was more powerful, being a Vala and them being Maiar. The difference in power between Melkor and Sauron (or the Balrog) was way bigger then the difference of power between Sauron and the Balrog. Gandalf says, when in Moria, that he has met his equal in the Balrog. And Gandalf is only little less than Sauron.
The fact they both served under Melkor and both were high in his esteem seems to make them pretty equal. Now that Melkor is in the Void, I don't believe any Balrog would be in league with Sauron or be helping him altogether. (lathspell)

No, the Balrog and Sauron weren't on the 'same team' because that would mean the Balrog was on Sauron's team, and no way would an elfbane like that kneel to a peer. Personally, I think the orcs referring to the Balrog with cries of 'Ghash' were not all that unalike to referencing Saruman as Sharkey or referring to anything back home as 'Lugburz' wanting a prize. Those orcs may have been sent to Moria by Sauron a few centuries before to investigate and inhabit the place, but it was clear that Durin's Bane was in charge, and they kept clear of him. However, if he felt the need to use them to send message back and forth to Dol Goldur, there's no evidence of it happening. While Sauron maybe of all people knew the shadow of Moria was the Balrog, the Balrog seemingly, knowing full well Sauron was a higher up, didn't care to leave Moria for any reason. It was . . . "His realm" and any orc there was there by his leave. I wonder if he had declared himself Lord of Moria . . .

So anyway, regardless of being aware of eachother I don't think there was a lot of talk between the Balrog and Sauron. After all, the Balrog would probably take Sauron for a traitor after going AWOL when Huan ripped his throat out and leaving Morgoth without his most devious schemer during the War of Wrath. If anything, Durin's Bane probably didn't really like Sauron that much anyway, thinking him nervy to take the title of 'Dark Lord'. (Keep')

(Both quotes from Wielding the Flame of Anor by Keep')

[Kuruharan]

(There is just something about Balrogs. Whenever they are mentioned in a thread they seem to inevitably come to dominate it.)

First of all, I don't think the Balrog was under any command. Like the dragons. Sauron can attempt to ally with it, but not command it.

I didn't mean to imply that.

My point was that Gandalf hoped that it were daylight when they exited the East-Gate as this would deter Orc pursuit

I certainly agree with you there.

And I think that it would have left Moria just to continue the battle with Gandalf.

Why? What's the point of doing that?

It may not have been subservient to Sauron, but I think that at the least the Balrog was in league with him.

Well, there was some sort of understanding there. I don't know if I'd put it any farther than that.

[alatar]

Originally Posted by Kuruharan

Why? What's the point of doing that?

I have no evidence to back this up, but in my opinion the Balrog was 'called in' as it wasn't just some nine teenagers who got lost in the Mines. These were the Nine Walkers, and as Sauron (via Saruman?) knew the name and kind of each, he may have realized that it might take more than orcs and trolls to effectively attack the same. So we get the Balrog.

Or the Balrog, as Lord of Moria, is torqued off at people trampling through his kingdom without paying the poll tax, and so we get the Balrog.

Either way, what exactly is it about being outside the gates of Moria that would stop the Balrog's pursuit? We have already ruled out the environment. Could Gandalf et al stand outside the East-Gate and thumb their noses at the Balrog? Would it be merely content to drive them out? In my first example, if it was called in/alerted by Sauron, then it might realize that there may be some personal gain in destroying the Nine. If it were upset over the trespassing, might it not again attempt to extract a pound of flesh?

And just how *do* you explain to your orc and troll groupies that nine good guys, including a dwarf and some midgets, just got away because they were 'one foot over the line?'

Well, there was some sort of understanding there. I don't know if I'd put it any farther than that.

Agreed.

[Kuruharan]

but in my opinion the Balrog was 'called in'

I assume you mean called in by Sauron?

I seriously doubt that. First of all, I don't believe that Sauron and the Balrog were in that kind of communication (let's just get that out of the way).

However, assuming they were, how would Sauron communicate with the Balrog that quickly?

Would it be merely content to drive them out?

In my view, yes.

The Balrog was there to hide, not anything else.

And just how *do* you explain to your orc and troll groupies that nine good guys, including a dwarf and some midgets, just got away because they were 'one foot over the line?'

You eat them.

[Kuruharan]

That sound you hear is the opening of a can o' worms...

While this issue may be deserving of its own thread (I'm not aware of a current one), in brief I will say I don't believe the Balrog would have left the nice, safe, dark underground because of the lure of the Ring. He could not have known of the existence of the Ring and so likely would not have understood its pull even if he felt it. He certainly does not strike me as the type to exert himself chasing after unnecessary trouble.

The Ring itself would probably not want to advertise itself too loudly because its master was Sauron and not the Balrog and it would not welcome that situation. In other words, perhaps at that moment it was purposefully not exerting a pull.

Unless you would want to suggest that the Watcher in the Water was the Balrog making an early snatch.

(Did I say in brief?)

[Nilpaurion Felagund]

Gandalf may have been stalling for time to gather energy for his blast (note all of his huffing and puffing about immediately prior to the incident). (Kuru)

Here we can reach a sort of compromise. Perhaps Gandalf was attempting to scare the Balrog off while preparing for a blast, should it come (which it did).

Re worms:

First of all, I don't think the Balrog was under any command. Like the dragons. Sauron can attempt to ally with it, but not command it.

The Balrog could be after the Ring. It doesn't have to understand its pull to be drawn by it (like, as Kuru said, the Watcher did). Although the puzzle that is Gandalf would be a better reason. Who is this being mighty in magic that dares to come in my abode? the Balrog might be thinking ever since their powers met at the Chamber door.

As for the Balrog and sunlight, well . . .

[Kuruharan]

Why not just ignore this irksome intrusion and get back to his slumber?...Fellowship was on its way out anyway

How was he supposed to know they were just passing through? Besides, he'd just had a rock dropped on his head. He might have taken that as a token of hostile intent.

But why should the Ring not profit from finding its ways into a Balrog's hands (claws, talons, whatever)?

The Ring wants to return to Sauron. If the Balrog was the approximate equal of Gandalf (and I think it is pretty clear he was) then he could have mastered it. This was not what the Ring wanted at all.

evil things are drawn to the Ring

This is true. If it weren't for the Watcher, I'd say it was more due to Sauron's particular hold over his slaves.

I don't think that it would have been beyond the wit of the Ring to find its way back to its Master via the Balrog.

Well, I am obviously of the opinion that this path was one that presented tremendous obstacles to the Ring achieving its goal.

[The Saucepan Man]

Originally Posted by Kuruharan

We seem to have lost hold of Gandalf's staff...

Indeed. But threads often take twists and turns like this and, as you said, there's nothing like a Balrog debate to turn up the heat.

How was he supposed to know they were just passing through?

Perhaps by the fact that they were running at break-neck speed towards the exit.

The Ring wants to return to Sauron. If the Balrog was the approximate equal of Gandalf (and I think it is pretty clear he was) then he could have mastered it. This was not what the Ring wanted at all.

A valid point. But the Ring was fast running out of options and on a one-way trip to doom (literally). I suppose it still had the Boromir gambit up its (metaphorical) sleeve. Inveigling itself into the Balrog's possesion would undoubtedly have been a risky move, but then its other options were pretty risky too. And just as Sauron was over-confident, perhaps the Ring was too. Perhaps it thought it had a good shot at mastering the Balrog. Then again, perhaps it did.

[HerenIstarion]

twists and turns, eh?

Legally, Balrog was in the right - the Fellowship committed what any lawyer would have labeled 'breaking and trespassing'. Legal defence may have pointed out that Balrog was a squatter, occupying dwarven halls legal owners never put their claims down to, but, on the other hand, as the prosecution may have retorted, dwarves themselves were guilty of selfsame 'breaking and trespassing' in the first place, as they dug into Balrog's original habitat in the lower halls without any legal ground whatsoever.

Accussed returned guilty, your honour!

So, it is just as well M-E haven't got lawyers

[The Saucepan Man]

Legally, Balrog was in the right ...

True enough, although he was entitled only to use reasonable force to defend his property, under English law at least.

I think that the shadow and flame, not to mention the flaming sword and whip, may have been a little over the top.

[Kuruharan]

Perhaps by the fact that they were running at break-neck speed towards the exit.

At the time they were running at break-neck speed for the exit he was hot on their tail (literally). He would have expected such behavior. When he set up his ambush they had been in the Twenty-first Hall and the Chamber of Mazarbul for several hours, which is where the dwarves had set up shop. He probably didn't want them gettin' ideas.

But the Ring was fast running out of options and on a one-way trip to doom

Actually, as the journey progressed its options were getting better and better with every step. You must take into account that Frodo himself failed in the end.

I suppose it still had the Boromir gambit up its (metaphorical) sleeve...but then its other options were pretty risky too.

(Lets see if we can't drag Boromir88 into the thread.)

Nah. As far as the Ring was concerned Boromir was a chump. He would have been putty in the Ring's (metaphorical) hands.

dwarves themselves were guilty of selfsame 'breaking and trespassing' in the first place, as they dug into Balrog's original habitat in the lower halls without any legal ground whatsoever.

Tut, tut councilor. That was not the Balrog's original habitat. The Balrog was trespassing without permission under other people's property (dwarven jurisprudence always draws property lines in a 360 degree circle in all directions around the center ).

Unless the Dwarves could tunnel into the Timeless Halls in search of mithril, they could not reach the Balrog's original habitat.

[alatar]

To bring the thread back to theme, I just want to note that Gandalf had to break his staff in order to counter the Balrog's 'preserve bridge' spell. Now that I've satisfied the legal requirement of staying on topic, here we go right back off.

In regards to my comment about the Balrog being 'called in,' a better explanation would be that it's noted somewhere in the books (is Gandalf telling this to Frodo?) that Sauron put out the call to all evil things and that's how Gollum (being even more susceptible) ends up in Mordor. I would then assume that the Balrog, being evil, at least got some kind of message, greeting card, etc, and so it knew that Sauron was back in business and was hiring. It would be complete speculation whether the Balrog submitted a resume or not ("...it says here that you worked for Morgoth before the First Age through the War of Wrath, are currently unemployed, good with a whip, know Words of Command..."). Also note that the Balrog's lack of verifiable employment kept him from obtaining a mortgage for Moria, which it had intended to buy and turn into a theme park.

Somewhere else it's noted that if Smaug were still alive that Sauron would have used him in his multi-pronged attack/war. Luckily Gandalf met a Dwarf by the side of the road or something, and so put the kabosh on that. But it must be noted that Smaug would have been controlled by, or at least a willing partner in Sauron's plan. And Smaug just seems much smarter that the Balrog - is there even 'one' Balrog quote in all of Tolkien's works ("If I really had wings I'd fly up there and smite thee, Thorondor.")? And Dol Guldur is much closer to Moria than it is to Erebor, meaning cheaper postal rates.

Now to add 2+2 to get 22. Smaug and the Balrog are both 'fire' creatures. Both are evil, have seen (and/or smelled) a Baggins, prefer to take very long naps underground in former Dwarven abodes (especially after having had less than amicable encounters with the same) in which mithril is present in some form, meet their demise through some action of the Grey Pilgrim, have wings...er, um, anyway...

With this many identical characteristics, I would then argue that if Smaug were to be a 'Friend of Sauron,' then surely the Balrog was. Saruman, who we all agree does not have wings, was a FoS, and the closest that he came to being a fire creature was in the use of pipeweed.

I rest my case before it becomes too ridiculous...too late.

[The Saucepan Man]

Originally Posted by Kuruharan

When he set up his ambush they had been in the Twenty-first Hall and the Chamber of Mazarbul for several hours, which is where the dwarves had set up shop. He probably didn't want them gettin' ideas.

Given their weak-kneed reaction (Ai! Ai! It's a Balrog. Mummy, I'm scared) when he did appear, he could probably rest assured knowing that any ideas that they might (hypothetically) have had would go straight out of the window with his arrival, and that they would just keep on running. So why bother carrying on the chase? Perhaps he wanted to hold the door open for them.

Originally Posted by Kuruharan

Actually, as the journey progressed its options were getting better and better with every step.

None of its options (with the exception of that clod, Boromir) were much, if at all, better than taking its chances with the Balrog. Fearsome though he was, he was defeated by a Maiar in man's clothing. And Balrogs in the first Age were defeated by Elves. Exemplary specimens of their race though they were, they were no Maiar. I doubt that he would hold too much fear for Sauron (of whom Gandalf was only the equal at full power), even with the Ring.

The Balrog was trespassing without permission under other people's property ...

Whoever gave the Dwarves the right of occupation? I don't recall mention of any Title Deeds ...

And who said that Dwarvish law is applicable? Balrogian legislation provides that possession is 100% of the law.