The Origin of Trolls

I would first like to introduce myself to the forums. I have enjoyed Tolkien for several years now, and I hope that my presence here would enrich the atmosphere. I have been reading the forum (without posting) for about a year now, and have recently decided to join, in hopes that the erudite atmosphere outlined in the sticky post will be realized. I will, of course, try my best to create such an atmosphere. Also, I would like to disclaim that I know that this theory has been posted elsewhere (one other Tolkien discussion site, to be exact). However, the theories were posted on that site and written by ME, with the help of some of my colleagues. As such, please do not accuse me of plagiarism, for the essays written on the previous site were in fact my work. I am reposting them here, with some revision. This is all my original work, and I am posting it here in hopes of reaching a conclusion, for I have hit a proverbial ‘road block’. If you read the original theories on the other site, you will notice that I have retained the same name of ‘Bilbo’. I know my post is long, but I will be indebted if you could read it, and hopefully contribute. I hope that this thread will not be a place for pat answers and simply ‘I agree’, but would tend towards more well thought-out observations. I must, of course, thank those who facilitated my though, which you will shortly read. I offer my thank-you's to Valithon, Endilion, and mastercharles, without whom these theories would have never reached the level at which you see them.

Second, before reading farther into my post, one must look at the sources that are used in supporting and contradicting the theorum. The four sources used by myself are The Lord of The Rings, Morgoth’s Ring, The Appendices of the Lord of The Rings, and The Letters of J.R.R. Tolkien. Each of these should be taken into account at a separate level; some sources are ’more correct’ than the others, and thus should be treated that way. Some of the texts should have more sway in the arguement. The order in which I think that the texts should be considered in imprtance (from the greatest to the least) is: The Lord of the Rings, The Appendices of Lord of the Rings, The Letters of J.R.R. Tolkien, and finally Morgoth’s Ring. To reiterate, the source of each quote should be taken into account when considering which theory is ’more correct.’ And now the theories:

The original theory proposed that the Trolls were not corrupted Ents, nor were they even made by Melkor. This theory argued that Trolls are a group of beings, or beasts, originally created by Eru, which had been brought to the will of Sauron, and thus used by him. There are two different quotes supporting this view. The first one if from Lord of the Rings Appendices:

"In the beginning far back in the twilight of the Elder Days, these were creatures of dull and lumpish nature and had no more language than beasts. But, Sauron made use of them, and teaching them what little they could learn, ... Trolls therefore took language as they could master from the orcs; and in the westlands the Stone-trolls spoke a debased form of the Common Speech."

It was argued how the Trolls had been present in Middle Earth since far back in the Elder Days, and therefore could be neither corrupted Ents nor mockeries of Ents. It’s been argued how they could not be corrupted Ents, for Melkor would not have the Ents to corrupt, as they have yet to come into a position of prominence and intelligence. Also, he stated that they cannot be in mockery of Ents, because firstly, they appeared very early in the history of Middle Earth, and thus Melkor could not have enough time to make such mockeries. Also, it has been mentioned that the trolls were originally probably simply beasts, and therefore were bent by the will of Sauron to there evil tendencies. So the theory was essentially because of the time period in which Trolls were first developed, it would be impossible for them to be either corruptions or mockeries, and therefore must have been beasts created by Eru (for they possessed free will), that had been turned to evil by the power of Sauron.

In support of this theory, I have found this quote in Morgoth’s Ring:

"It seens clearly implied in Lord of the Rings that Trolls existed in their own right, but were ’tinkered’ with by Melkor."

This quote clearly supports this proposed theory, except in one point. It states that Trolls were not created by Melkor, nor were they corrupted from Ents. It states that Trolls existed as a rational creature, but at a later time had been ’tinkered with’ and brought into there current state. The only point which this contradicts the original theory is who actually did this tinkering. In the original theory, Sauron was the proposed tinkerer, because he is the one that increased the wickedness of the original Trolls, and also taught them language and the like. However, in this quote it is made explicitly clear that Melkor was the original tinkerer, and that Sauron may have only dealt with them after the initial sway to the will of Morgoth, furthering upon that which his master has started.
I know that you are saying to yourself that this theory has to be correct now, as there is irrevocable textual evidence. However, there is much more to the debate. Tolkien clearly states how the orcs had been created. The process, as per Tolkien, used by Melkor is that he captured elves near the time of there awakening at Cuivienan, and through long ages of torture and misery, orcs were produced, shades of their former elven selves. Thus, the orcs can be considered to be corrupted elves.

Theory Number Two: originally argued that Ents had undergone the same process; they had experienced long years of torture, and thus produced Trolls. This theory was quickly discarded, perhaps too quickly. Tolkien writes, about five pages later, also in Morgoth’s Ring:
"
The elves would have classed the creatures called Trolls (in The Hobbit and Lord of the Rings) as orcs -- in character and origin -- but they were larger and slowed. It would seem evident that they were corruptions of primitive human types."

I myself had thought the conundrum of the origin of the Trolls solved with the quote provided by myself, but here is another twist thrown into the mix. Here, it states that Trolls were actually corruptions. As you know, the orcs originated from elves, being corruptions of the later. This quote proposes that the Trolls were "as orcs -- in character and origin". Therefore, it would seem that the Trolls had to have been produced the same way as orcs - through the process of corruption. Although this quote claims that they were corruptions of primitive human types, they are nonetheless corruptions. Once again, we have irrefutable evidence that Trolls were created through a different process, this time being corruption.

Theory Number Three: And lastly, we have the theory that has proposed thirdly. This states that Trolls were created by Morgoth, using his subcreationary powers, in mockery of Ents. They are not physically Ents, but rather created as a rebuttal to them. To support this, I have not been able to produce any new text, except for that found in the Letters of J.R.R. Tolkien. In Letter 153, it is stated that
"I am not sure about trolls, I think they are mere ’counterfeits’..." and also "... ’made’ them in counterfeit of certain creatures pre-existing." Also, in The Lord of the Rings, Treebeard states how the Trolls are made in mockery of the Ents.

Both of these statements claim that the Trolls were made in mockery of the other creatures, more than likely being Ents. He also states that they were made, not corrupted, and thus are in clear contradicition with the other theorum. The Trolls are referred to as being counterfeits. To be a counterfeit, one cannot be the original thing. Therefore, the Trolls had to have been created by Melkor -- not corrupted by Melkor, but rather created by him, using other creatures as a model. The Trolls have not been bent to Morgoth’s will but created by him and also in service to him. For a third time, we have another theory which is supported by explicit textual evidence, and also in complete contradiction to the other two.

Here are three perfectly plausible theories. Each has textual evidence which greatly supports each of the theorum. Endilion’s theory of Trolls being pre-existing creatures brought to the will of Morgoth is supported by textual evidence from the Appendices of the Lord of the the Rings and from Morgoth’s ring. The theory of Trolls being corrupted Ents or other creatures is supported through evidence from only Morgoth’s Ring. The final theory of Trolls being made by Morgoth using his sub-creationary powers is supported by textual extracts from The Lord of the Rings and The Letters of J.R.R. Tolkien. It seems that we have quite the conundrum; each theory has irrevocable textual evidence, makes sense, and seems to be correct. However, to attempt to shed some light on this conundrum, I present another theory. I will start with this extract from The Letters of J.R.R. Tolkien:

"But there are other sorts of Trolls besides these rather ridiculous, if brutal, Stone-trolls for which other origins are suggested."

This seems to suggest that there are other different forms of Trolls. The breeds of Trolls that are prevalent in Tolkien’s writings, and whose names also are made available in his texts are the Stone-trolls and the Olog-Hai. However, this quote suggests that there are other forms of Trolls other than those whose named we are not given; different ’breeds’ so to speak, different from there fellow Trolls, but enough alike them to be considered to be Trolls.

Also, this quote presents another point: that all of these different breeds of Trolls may have had different origins. Not all of those creatures classified as being Trolls have been created through the same method. Therefore, each different breed of Troll could have been created in a different way, and although they are technically separate creatures, they are all classified as being Trolls. For example, some of those beings classified as being Trolls may have been made in mockery of and as a rebuttle to Ents by Melkor (as the third theory suggested), and thus had been less intelligent, and therefore different from there brethren. Another breed of Trolls could have been created through the method which originally was proposed - creatures originally created by Eru, but bent to the will of Melkor through his deceit and powers, much like the Balrogs. Also, some trolls may have been corrupted Ents, or as the quote in support of the second theory suggests, corrupted primitive men, and thus had been different breeds of Trolls, but Trolls nonetheless. So, as you can see, each of these theories may be correct, for each one has textual evidence, and here is presented the idea of different breeds of Trolls of whom different origins are suggested. So, although one theory cannot be applied to the origin of all the Trolls, each theory can perhaps be applied to a different breed of Trolls, who, although different, are still all considered to be Trolls. So, in conclusion, maybe all of the textually proven methods of the creation of Trolls had been used, each one producing a different breed of Trolls, but all nonetheless Trolls.

Alas, it is not as simple as the multiple origin theory originally proposed. To assume so would be folly, so I continued delving into my books, whereas I came across this quote in ‘The Treason of Isengard’.

"Difference between trolls--stone inhabited by goblin-spirit, stone-giants, and the ’tree-folk’ "

This quote provided a very interesting twist, and I find that it fits in best with both the theories Two and Three. It seems to tie the two separate theorums together in a fairly logical way of which I had yet to percieve.

Theories two and three seem to contradict each other to a very large extent. One argues that Trolls are counterfeits; therefore, they must have been made, fabricated, so to speak, presumably by Melkor. Theory three, however, argues that Trolls were like orcs, in both character and origin, and therefore must be corruptions of creatures pre-existing with a violent and malevolent spirit and personality. How would it be possible for one to be both theories simultaneously, both fabricated and pre-existing, created yet corruptions?

I find that there is a (semi) simple answer to this question: Trolls are counterfeits in the sense that their outer forms were created, but were corruptions because their spirit is that of orcs and goblins, whom, as we all presumably know, are derivative of men (see paragraph about 6 down), and are therefore corruptions.

In theory number two, it is argued that Melkor created the trolls for they are referred to as counterfeits. However, because of the new quote brought to my attention, I have altered my thinking. Melkor may have only created the outer raiment of the Trolls, for they are described as "stone inhabited by "something else, in this case the spirits of Goblins. My new thought on the topic is that the Trolls are, in Letter 153, referred to as being counterfeits simply because Melkor had created their outer form. Melkor may not have created the spirit of the Trolls, but he did create their outer stone form, and thus they can be classified as counterfeits, for they were fabricated. This also conforms perfectly with the quote from the Silmarillion, in which Melkors sub-creationary powers were clearly defined as not being capable of creating sentient beings. Technically, if he only created their outer forms, he was not creating life, and therefore was capable of doing so. Also, they are still counterfeits, because Melkor did create them, but only their outer forms.

The spirit of the Troll, however, may have been where the corruptionary idea fits in. Tolkien states in Morgoth’s Ring that Trolls are like orcs, in character and origin, and therefore must be corruptions. In the quote that you provided, they are "stone inhabited by goblin-spirit." Therefore, I am assuming that they are referred to as being corruptions only in regard to their spirit that inhabits them. Their spirit is indeed a corruption, for it is deriviative of orcs, who are the corruptionary forms of elves. And, also because the Trolls spirit are like that of orcs, then they would naturally be like them in origin. Therefore, is it not presumable that the Trolls are corruptions in the sense that their spirit was created from other, more benevolent beings? (the combined corruption / counterfeit theory will, for ease of use, be referred to as 'Theory Number Four')

Of course, we need to decide how it would be possible to go about in displacing the souls of the orcs into that of a Troll, as is presented in Theory Four. Do orcs have souls, and if so, would it be possible for Morgoth to successfully embody these souls into a Troll? Once again, I believe Morgoth’s Ring holds the answer to this question:

“…But always among them [the orcs] (as special servants and spies of Melkor, and as leaders) there must have been numerous corrupted minor spirits who assumed similar bodily shapes.”

And also:

“Melkor had corrupted many spirits – some as great, as Sauron, or less so, as Balrogs, the least could have been primitive (and much more powerful and perilous) orcs.”

Here we are given the theory that some of the orcs, the captains among them, were lesser spirits, who had presumably entered the world in the Elder Days. These spirits, being naturally bodiless, could have been the material in which the outer shells of the Trolls created through Theory Four could have been empowered. They were orcs, in the sense that that was their original form, but when the need arose, and the outer forms of the Trolls had been made ready, these lesser spirits could have given up their orcish forms in favor of the Trolls. Thus, it is possible that this was the way in which the Trolls were embodied with orcish sprits: the fact that some orcs were in fact lesser Maia, and could thus be displaced into the Trolls outer raiment.

So, I believe that theory number three regards only the Troll’s spirit as being corruptions, for they are here referred to as containing the spirit of goblins. Theory number two, which argues the Trolls as being counterfeits, is only referring to the outer rainment of the Trolls, which, being stone, was presumably created by Melkor. Therefore, it can be assumed that both were used simultaneously to create Trolls - they were counterfeits because their bodies were fabricated, and corruptions because their spirits were impure versions of another being.

Of course, we are still not conforming to the ‘primitive human’ theory presented. It has been argued over the prospect of Trolls being capable of being corrupted primitive humans. The prospect was proposed that Trolls, as is the opinion of the elves, were derived from corrupted primitive human types. This is the only quote presented in its support:

"The elves would have classed the creatures called Trolls (in The Hobbit and Lord of the Rings) as orcs -- in character and origin -- but they were larger and slowed. It would seem evident that they were corruptions of primitive human types."

Although none of us fully believed that particular theory to be correct, it was nonetheless one of the possibilities, and there has been no textual evidence, other the debatable quote from Morgoth’s Ring, to sway the favor one way or the other. However, while recently perusing through Morgoth’s Ring, being the eleventh book in the History of Middle Earth series, I have come across these rather interesting quote:

"...it is probable that these Orks had a mixed origin. Most of them were plainly, and biologically, corruptions of elves (and probably later also of Men)”

Later in the same section, although it is a later essay, Tolkien goes on to write:

“The theory of the origin of the orcs thus meets with difficulties of chronology. But though men may take comfort in this, the theory remains [of orcs being derived of men] the most probable. It accords with all that is known if Melkor, and of the nature and behavior of orcs – and of men.”

Although it is not made incredibly and exceptionally clear, it would seem that when corrupted, the human types become orcs. It has been previously concluded that one breed of Trolls is descended from the outer-shell / embodiment theory. The creatures which it has been concluded that the Trolls must be animated with (because one must conform with the ‘corruption’ idea), were orcs. While it is more likely that many were maia in orc form, is it not possible to say that Melkor could have used normal ‘run of the mill’ orc spirits? It certainly does not reach out of the scope of his creationary powers. Because some Trolls are said to be derivatives of ‘primitive human types’, it can be concluded that these types are orc-spirits (stone inhabited by goblin-spirit), with the orc-sprits derived from men. Hence, we are satisfying another quote.

I still do believe in the multiple origins of Trolls, because I can see no way in which the combined theories of two-three can fit in with that of theory one. My new take on the topic is this - the first Trolls were those primitive beings bent to the will of Morgoth, while the later Trolls are those corruption/counterfeits whom were created by Melkor and filled with the spirits of orcs (maia and corrupted men).

We are now left with two varying theories as to the multiple origins of Trolls: Theory number one argues that Trolls were a primitive stone race, primtive Ents, or primitve human types, created originally by Eru, who were enslaved by Morgoth and bent to his will. Theory number four, which accounts for the other origin of Trolls (for there are multiple) refers to the Trolls as being corruptions and counterfeits, in the sense that their outer bodies were created, and their spirit, being that of orcs, was corrupted.

You ask, however, what primitive creature, (this idea of primitive creatures being mentioned in theory number one) was used to breed that ’species’ of Trolls. There have been three suggestions proposed: ents or a primitive stone race.

I find that a definitive answer to the exact species that these first breeds of Trolls is derivative from to be nigh impossible to reach. At this point, we are speculating on speculation. Nothing, as of yet, has been totally and fully proven. The answer reached is probably the most comprehensive, but it is still speculation based on a limited amount of textual material. Yes, it is probably the most likely answer (Theories 1 and 4), but it is still not the correct answer, for that is unobtainable, as Tolkien has now passed away. However, I will do my best to try and figure out which one is more likely to have been the case. So far, we have found the two most likely origins of Trolls, but what of the original creature from which the Trolls of theory one have been derived?

We are presented with two ideas - that Trolls were either primitive Ents drawn to the will of Morgoth, or a primitive stone creature which had been bent to serve Morgoth. Before I express my thoughts on the topic, I will address your second question (which method created which Troll). Although it may now seem like I am rambling and jumping from topic to topic, rest assured, it will tie together at the end.

You asked whether all of the types of Trolls - the Stone Trolls, Hill Trolls, Cave Trolls, Mountain Trolls, Snow Trolls, etc., are all from different origins, for they are all called differently, or rather Trolls from the same origin, but which have adapted to suit their environment.

Often, people ask ’What is in a name?’. In this case, I believe there is very much within the names of the Trolls. All the Trolls are named for the place which they inhabit: The Mountain Trolls are named so because they originate from the mountains, Hill Trolls originate from the hills, Cave Trolls from the caves, Snow Trolls from the from the cold climates. However, there is one breed of Troll which is not named for their location. This is the Stone Trolls. This breed of Trolls are the only which have not been named for their location of origin. They seem to be ’different’ than all the other Trolls, kind of the oddball of the group. They are already set away from the rest of the breeds of Trolls.

Tolkien writes, in Leter 153, "but there are other sorts of Trolls besides these rather ridiculous, if brutal, Stone-trolls for which other origins are suggested."

This states that there are other sorts of Trolls, rather than the Stone Trolls, who have different origins. Either way this is interpreted, it still sets the Stone Trolls away from the other types, like the Mountain, Hill, or Cave Trolls. It states, depending on which way you interpret the quote, that either there are other types of Trolls which have separate origins than Stone Trolls, or that the Stone Trolls have origins which differentiate from the of the "other sorts of Trolls". Either way you look at it, the Stone Trolls are once again separated from the other breeds of Trolls. They are set off from the group, seemingly different than all the others.

In Letter 153, it states that Stone Trolls have a different origin than all the other Trolls. Since there are now only two theories which have been accepted as of yet, is it not correct to state that the Stone Trolls, which have been obviously been set away from all other kinds, have originated in one way, while all the other Trolls originated in another? For, if the Stone Trolls originated in a different way than all other breeds of Trolls originated, and there are only two theories which are applicable (Theories 1 and 4), than it would seem that the only possible way this is capable of occurring is that Stone Trolls occupied one of these theories (for it has been stated that they have originated differently), leaving the other theory left over for all other Trolls to have originated from.

So, my take on this is that Stone Trolls originated in their own way (either theory one or four), while all other breeds originated in the other way (whichever theory the Stone Trolls have not occupied), and the other breeds developed from that original breed, ultimately becoming slightly different breeds because of differentiating environments, but still having originated differently. This also explains the discrepancy of the names, as all the similiar-originated Trolls are named for their environments, while the Stone Trolls, which had to have originated differently (see Letter 153), have not.

To put it simply, Stone Trolls originated one way, and all other Trolls originated the other, and these other Trolls developed from there into the separate species.

However, this leads to a new conundrum. Which theory is applicable to which? Have the Stone Trolls originated using theory one, and the other Trolls originated using theory four? Or, have the Stone Trolls originated through the methods described in theory four, and the other breeds through the methods described in theory one?

Before each theory is applied to the distinct breed of Trolls (comprised of Stone Trolls versus all other breeds), your question regarding from what creature the Trolls in theory one are cannot be answered. For, if theory one is applicable to Stone Trolls, than the primitive stone creatures are more likely, for Stone Trolls are obviously stone, and therefore are not primitive Ents, for Ents are not stone. However, if theory one is applied to all other breeds, who are not explicitly stated as being stone (only Stone Trolls are said to return to the stuffs of the mountain), than they can be either primitive Ents or primitve stone creatures, for they are not limited by the material from which they were made, like the Stone Trolls.

I know that I stated that my rambling will tie together at the end, but unfortunately, it did not, and left us with more questions than when we first started. We are left with one seemingly unapproachable question:

Which process created which Troll?

This question has plagued me for some time now. I am unable to come up with any textually supported answer, but I believe that there are several clues as to which Troll was created through which processes. The method which I think most likely is that the Stone Trolls were created through the process described in Theory Four, an outer raiment created by Morgoth and filled with spirits of lesser maia who were formerly captains amongst orcs, while all the other Trolls (such as the Snow and Cave Trolls) were creatures created by Eru and later bent to the will of Morgoth. My reasoning is this: Melkor’s subcreationary powers were not of the highest capability. Certainly the creationary powers of Eru would be much greater than that of Melkor. Therefore, it would only be logical for Melkor to have created the more flawed Trolls, while Eru created the less flawed Trolls. The Trolls which were more flawed were the Stone Trolls, susceptible to the sunlight. The less flawed Trolls were those who were (debatably) not subject to the same sunlight-incompatibility of the Stone Trolls. Therefore, it would seem logical that the less flawed Snow, Cave, and Mountain Trolls were created by Eru, and therefore Theory Number One is applicable, in which Trolls are a pre-existing race bent to the will of Morgoth. Subsequently, Melkor would have created the more-flawed Stone Trolls, thus Theory Number Four, in which he created the outer form of the Trolls and filled them with lesser maia-spirits is applicable.

I would love to hear you thoughts on my ramblings about Trolls, and I hope you enjoyed reading this as much as I enjoyed writing it!

[ July 08, 2003: Message edited by: Bilbo ]

[Scott]

Greetings.

Well Bilbo, I am sorry that I'm not directly answering your final question, per say, and hope that this post isn't considered at all "pat". Your theories seem to be based upon the idea that any origin or form of explanation as to the creation of the trolls was set concretely in Tolkien's mind. On this point, I cannot agree. Tolkien himself stated that he was not sure about what to make of the origin of the trolls: "I am not sure about trolls..." In keeping with the best wishes of the author, I would think that the last given explanation would be in order. And although you give more than ample evidences to back up your points, your evidence looks like it has gone into a chronological blender. From best as I can tell, each piece of supporting information is from a different time period and phase of Tolkien's thought and creative processes. I therefore do not think that it is accurate to support any theorums proposing a (and excuse my poor diction) concrete idea. I see it as proving someone got to 6 by showing 4,2,5,3,1.

I am not trying to spurn your creative thought processes, but I think that you might need to be a bit more chronologically accurate, in reverance to Tolkien.

Also, I thought that your opening was a bit heady and hard to follow (once you got into your actual ideas). I think a good concrete thesis would clarify things a bit for oyur readers. I see why this might be hard though, since the end is not finished as of yet.

I hope you enjoy your afterlife,

~Scott

[Gwaihir the Windlord]

Scott, I think you are missing something. What you say is true -- the prof himself did not actually define this issue conclusively. Still, speculation on possible conclusions is perfectly acceptable here. A great deal of this type of discussion does on here. Would you make the same reply to my essay on the Arkenstone *hehe*?? That there is no definite conclusion is the very reason that Bilbo's post was made.
Welcome to the downs, Bilbo. You've obviously thought a lot about this. I must admit that I read over the last sections of that incredibly long post rather rapidly =/, but I think I've got enough of the idea of it to be able to make a reply. This is indeed a tough question, and, as I have stated, one without a definite answer -- but that is what the Downs is built on, of course. My own idea on this -- for we all have them, or should have them, on these issues -- is that, firstly, the various types of trolls are not from different sources. The are the same race of beings, and must therefore stem from the same source. You propose that this source is either from Illuvitar directly or from Morgoth.
In answer to this, nothing proceed directly from Illuvitar except two creations. They are the Children of Illuvitar, and the Ainur, and all else has its origins (well, ultimately in Illuvitar, like everything else, but not directly) in the works of the Ainur. It was their task to carry out the work that the Music had planned. There is a slight exception here in Orcs, but that is another issue.
Therefore Trolls, like all other non-Children/Ainur beings in Arda (Orcs bing another issue as forestated), were created through the works of a Vala or a Maia. It is quite a possibility that they are a type of 'dull, lumpish creature' of the wild, that Morgoth has 'tinkered with' and Sauron bent to his will. It is said that in the time before the Elves appeared, and Morgoth's dominion of Middle-Earth was uncontested, he did much of this 'tinkering' -- 'beasts became monsters of horn and ivory, and the ground was stained with their blood' or something like that.
Trolls were possibly some obscure, flawed, perhaps experimental breed of animal that a Maia of perhaps Orome developed in a remote corner of Middle-Earth, which was then taken, at this time of corruption of beasts on Middle-Earth, by Morgoth or Sauron -- if indeed it was not a Maia under Morgoth that had created them. In this case, this Maia was in all probability Sauron, as he seemed to be quite keen on them.

The problem with this last (^) is that Morgoth did not have 'creative powers', as you say, Bilbo, only great modification and corruption powers; thus, this statement is flawed. The theory that Trolls were a corrupted version of Ents may be true. Ents existed from early days, but in a rather dull form before their enlightenment and full-awakening by the radiance and art of the Elves. It may have been quite easy for Morgoth or perhaps Sauron, instead of an Ainu creating them in the above scenario, to corrupt and change some of these early Ents into an early Troll. It may even be some still-earlier prototype Ent that was taken by Morgoth from which to develop his race of Trolls, later to be perfected by Sauron.

Trolls were, I believe, in essence a product of Illuvitar, as is everything. Their exact origins upon Arda are indeed obscure.

Hope I've been of help, Bilbo. Actually, you might be able to incorporate some the stuff from this discussion, and from your own very long post, into a sort of essay compilation on the topic if you like long-winded writing. [img]smilies/smile.gif[/img] You probably should try and cut the actual length of your average post down when you post here, though.
Again, welcome.
Gwaihir

Scott -- You said, 'any origin or form of explanation as to the creation of the trolls was set concretely in Tolkien's mind. On this point, I cannot agree'

Such was the point of my post. I wished to find the most logically possible origin for Trolls, based on the plethora of possible options provided by Tolkien. I even disclaim that most of my post is in fact speculation, and should be treated as such. I in no way claimed my theories to be 'definitive'. I claimed them to be theories which were based on Tolkien's writing throughout his chronological history. I attempted to incorporate the quotes from agreeably variable time periods into a logically sound theory. Indeed they were not directly the ideas of Tolkien.

'I am not trying to spurn your creative thought processes, but I think that you might need to be a bit more chronologically accurate, in reverance to Tolkien.'

I had not even taken this into consideration. I will, in my next post regarding Trolls, attempt to incorporate this into my theorums.

Gwaihir -- You wrote: "the various types of trolls are not from different sources"

I tend to disagree with this statement. Tolkien states in Letter 153 that there are "other sorts of Trolls besides these rather ridiculous, if brutal, Stone-trolls for which other origins are suggested." This seems to clearly state that the Trolls vary in their origins.

You wrote: 'The theory that Trolls were a corrupted version of Ents may be true'

One must take into consideration, however, the materials which the Trolls and Ents are made of. Trolls, as we know, are made of stone, or the 'stuff of the mountains' (The Hobbit). However, Ents are said to be made of materials of the forest. I have, in no occurrence, witnessed the power of Melkor to actually change materials. Yes, his corruptionary powers were immense, but to transmute materials from one creature to another is, I find, very unlikely. I am, however, beginning to favor your idea that one origin of Trolls were poor vala or maia creations which Melkor rather took advantage of. I will also, at your suggestion, cut down the length of my posts [img]smilies/smile.gif[/img]. I will post the requested summary perhaps later today or tomorrow.

[Legolas]

Snow Trolls?

[Gwaihir the Windlord]

Bilbo, all Trolls, while there are several varying types, are basically the same. There is (or was) a non-successful theory on human evolution around somewhere that proposes humans all evolved seperately in their respective locations around the world, explaining the largeish differences in appearance and bodily build in our species. However, this is clearly not the case. Humans are the same species, and have a very narrow genetic variation from one race to the next; coming from different sources would render us incompatible.
It is much the same with Trolls. There are different breeds or races, but they are all the same basic thing. Given this, it is hard to imagine that they were created independantly from one another. A single species can be developed into different types.

What you say about the differences in 'substance' between Ents and Trolls is true. While this does not negate the possibility of their having come from Ents originally, it does raise an interesting new prospect; did they come from Dwarves? Dwarves, it would appear, share this aspect with Trolls, that they are created from stone.

Aftertime it was held among the Elves in Middle-Earth that dying the Dwarves returned to the earth and the stone of which they were made, but that is not thier own belief.

Could Trolls have come from dwarves, perhaps? That may explain why they were not around much, or not at all, in the First Age while Orcs had been bred already. Dwarves did not appear until during the First Age, so Morgoth did not have oppurtunity to capture and change them until then, and after, when he had more chance to. Hmm interesting thought... I think it probable that Trolls were created, or at least developed by Morgoth, with 'mockery of Ents' in mind, although they did not neccesarily have to have come from this source. Any medium would have done that was suitable, and Dwarves may concievably have been this.

[ July 10, 2003: Message edited by: Gwaihir the Windlord ]

[Voralphion]

I don't think that trolls could have been made from dwarves, mainly because of their large size difference, but trolls may have been made by Melkor using a similar process and starting material to that which Aule used to make the dwarves. This is of course countered by the Silmarillion, where Eru says to Aule that "... moving when thou thinkest to move them, and if thy thought be elsewhere, standing idle. ..." (Of Aule and Yavanna). From this it says that if Melkor did create them himself, unless his mind was on them, they couldn't move. I believe that he may have got around this by allowing some of his power to disperse into them. This would have the effect of him having his mind on them without him doing so, and allowing them to act independently, and remain after he was throw into the void. This could also explain why they turn to stone in the sun. The sun, being made by the valar from the fruit of one of the trees, would have power to break what ever power Melkor put into the troll, causing them to turn to stone.
In the third age, the addition of Sauron's will and power on some of the trolls may have allowed them to be sun-resistant, hence the Olog-Hai. " Unlike the race of the twilight they could endure the Sun, so long as the will of Sauron held sway over them." (Of Other races, trolls, Appendix F, LOTR).

[Måns]

My chief argument agains trolls being derived from dwaves is based on their stupidity and the Dwarvish stubborness. Firstly, Morgoth wasn't stupid. Why should he make whatever creatures he started with so dumb and uncrafty? Trolls couldn't build anything and I can hardly see why he would take this ability from anyone. Then again, these qualities seem so inextricably linked with being a dwarf it is impossible to separate the dwarf from it. I think that the trolls were one of those dark creatures said to be haunting middle earth before the coming of the Children already, unknown origin. There might have been a creature like Ungolianth that spawned a race of weaker children and disciples. To go to the origin of something, look at it's way of mating, was there any female trolls?

Måns

[Aragost]

In the sil. in the chapter of the third age and the rings of power it says that in the battle of the last alliance "Of the dwarves few fought on either sidebut the Kindred of Durin of Moria fought against Sauron." Why would tolkien state this like that if dwarves fought on only one side. Would he not say that all the dwarves who fought were against sauron. My point is why would Melkor or Sauron corrupt dwarves into trolls when they could turn them onto their side.

I still believe that the the ents went through the same process as the elves when being turned into trolls.

The quote is from page 352 in the Silmarillion

[ July 10, 2003: Message edited by: Aragost ]

Legolas -- Snow Trolls are mentioned briefly in the Appendices of Lord of the Rings, in the story concerning Helm Hammerhand.

Gwaihir -- Not only is there Letter 153 which is against your opinion, but there is also a logical reason supporting the 'multiple origin' theory. I proposed that the Trolls had originated through two different methods. One was that the Trolls were pre-existing creatures, which were 'tinkered' with by Melkor, and thus bent to serve him. The other way was the creation of an outer body (like that of Aulë's dwarves), which were then animated with the spirit of the boldogs (like the dragons were animated). However, your arguement against this is that all the Trolls are essentially the same, and therefore they cannot be derived from different sources. The way in which I presented the origins, though, can indeed make it possible for the Trolls to be descended from differentiating sources, and still be nearly all alike. This scenario is one I find very likely: Melkor could have stumbled across this 'primitive race' of Trolls (whose probable origin I will address later), and bent them to his will, and thus inflated his servants. However, he found that this race was not numerous enough to serve him effectively. Therefore, he went and attempted to 'swell' their ranks with his own creations. He created a near mirror image of the pre-existing Troll's body, and went and embodied them with spirits from his other creatures (more than likely the boldogs). This would create the second 'wave' of Trolls, which would subsequently be nearly exactly like their brethren, but still from a different origin. Granted, this is nearly all speculation, but that is really all which we can work with right now.

The prospect of Trolls being dwarves stolen from Aulë is, I find, extremely unlikely. First, as Voralphion stated, how would one account for the massive size difference between the two creatures. Second, why would Melkor steal that which he could easily create? It would be well within the bounds of Melkor's powers to create a simple outer stone body with which he could animate. Therefore, why would he steal them, and risk getting caught? It is very illogical.

Voralphion -- That is a very interesting thought (outer form being animated by the will of Melkor), but how would you fit that into the plethora of different quotes, which specifically place the 'animation spirit' on orcs and the like ('like orcs -- in character and origin (Morgoth's Ring), and 'stone inhabited by goblin-spirit' (The Treason of Isengard). Although a very interesting idea, it is, I find, less likely than them being inhabited by orcs and the like, for your idea lacks the necessary textual support.

Another issue which has been raised is what creature primitive race of Trolls, assuming for the time being that my original hypothesis is true, were derived from. Were they, as Mans proposed, like Ungoliant, unknown horrors which were born into the world unbeknownst to the Vala, which had weaker, less effective orffspring (the Trolls)? Could they have been creations of one of the Valar, 'dull and lumpish', which could have been found by Melkor, tinkered with, and became the first Trolls. Or, are they neither, and are we missing some very obvious solution? An answer to this has eluded me for the time being. It will require more thought and reading on my part, and if I find and answer, I will surely post it here.

Here is the requested summary of the first post:

The origin of Trolls is one which is often difficult to define. Tolkien has provided a large amount of contradictory quotes, which I have attempted to sort out in a logical manner. The resulting idea was the idea of multiple origins of Trolls. I would not even consider it had it not been for Tolkien’s words in Letter 153, which states "But there are other sorts of Trolls besides these rather ridiculous, if brutal, Stone-trolls for which other origins are suggested." This is what first initiated the ’multiple origin theory’, which kind of took off on its own from that point. After much arguing, the origins have been narrowed down to two different: a creature which was pre-existing, which was bent to the will of Morgoth, derived from Tolkien’s words in Morgoth’s Ring, in which "It seems clearly implied in Lord of the Rings that Trolls existed in their own right, but were ’tinkered’ with by Melkor." Of course, there are numerable other quotes, including the ones provided in Letter 153, which argue Trolls being counterfeits: "I am not sure about trolls, I think they are mere ’counterfeits’, which implies their fabrication, Trolls as corruptions: "elves would have classed the creatures called Trolls (in The Hobbit and Lord of the Rings) as orcs -- in character and origin -- but they were larger and slowed. It would seem evident that they were corruptions of primitive human types", which implies that Trolls would need to be pre-existing creatures, and this quote from The Treason of Isengard, which ties the two together: "trolls--stone inhabited by goblin-spirit, stone-giants, and the ’tree-folk’"

Through this jumble of quotes, another solution presented itself which would tie together all of the quotes save one; the boldogs. To be both a corruption and a counterfeit proved itself impossible - how could one be pre-existing (corruption, for you need something to corrupt before you could call it such) and a counterfeit (implies that it was created, not pre-existing). As we know, Melkor was incapable of creating sentient beings of his own. This means that a counterfeit Troll could not have been solely the work of Melkor. He could not ’animate’ the Trolls, although the creation of an outer form was well within his abilities. Therefore, it was presumed through logical assumption that Melkor created the outer forms of the Trolls (hence they were counterfeits), and animated them with the spirit of boldogs (which were corruptions of maia’s, and the most likely spirit to be used). Through such a solution, we are satisfying three quotes: the one presented in the letter which calls them counterfeits, the one provided in Morgoth’s Ring which stated that the were ’like orcs, in character and origin’, and the quote in The Treason of Isengard, which stated that they were "stone inhabited by goblin-spirit". However, such a solution could not satisfy the quote which said that "Trolls existed in their own right, but were ’tinkered’ with by Melkor". Thus, it was necessary to stick with the ’multiple origin theory’ stemming first from Letter 153.

Of course, the theory would hold absolutely no weight unless a probable cause could be imagined for Melkor’s purpose in creating more Trolls. The only logical reason would be to strengthen his forces. More Trolls would mean more available power. My personal thought is that Melkor enslaved a pre-existing race of Trolls, which became his servants, but when he required more Troll-like servants, he created them through the ’outer embodiment / animation’ method described above.

However, I must disclaim that these theories are mostly purely invented by myself, Valithon, mastercharles, and Endilion to satisfy the plethora of contradicting quotes provided by Tolkien. They seem to satisfy every possibility, and for that I accepted them.

[Gilthalion]

There is an awful lot here! I do not have time to carefully reread it all, nor to respond point by point. My sense of things is as follows (and I apologise for not having time enough to do proper research and citations).

Trolls, according to the Entish view, are made in mockery of the Ents. Perhaps the Ents are right. Yet this does not tell us the process. We can allow that Morgoth and Aule, being alike, might have hit upon similar methods for their works: respectively, Dwarves & Trolls. Dwarves were animated by Eru. Primordial trolls and giants may have been animated by Morgoth in a process similar to the animation of dragons and the posession of Carcaroth, a spirit of some kind is ensnared in the created or procreated form. If the trolls are like orcs to the elvish view, then the original spirit(s) may indeed have been corrupted elves or maia. There may even have been some long process whereby a creation/subcreation of this sort was mated with generations of various procreations, such as orcs, men, and ents. Thereafter, they were largely left on their own until Sauron in the Third Age bred and sustained the Olog-Hai.

This synthesis, perhaps, allows for all of the known data and seems to explain both the common origin of trolls in general and the special origin of the stone trolls in particular.

However, there seems to be insufficient data to form any final conclusion about the origin of trolls, and Tolkien himself seems not to have finally settled on one, at least in print.

There is one other possibility concerning the origin of trolls...

In the late 20th Century of the Common Era of the Last Age, some last monstrous throwback of the offspring of Ungoliant unleashed upon the unsuspecting multitudes a net that ensnared them for many hours of nearly every day of their lives. It was called, the World Wide Web.

The hapless victims were lured in, and in darksome chatrooms and even darker forums, there lurked hideous creatures that lay in wait. These "TROLLS," as they came to be called, would pounce upon their prey, bludgeoning them with weighty posts in unstoppable assaults while the victim writhed in endless sticky threads. All who blundered into their lairs regretted it...

[Sophia the Thunder Mistress]

That is a very interesting thought (outer form being animated by the will of Melkor), but how would you fit that into the plethora of different quotes, which specifically place the 'animation spirit' on orcs and the like ('like orcs -- in character and origin (Morgoth's Ring),

I wonder, have you taken into account Tolkien's thoughts on orcish origin at all? One of his theories was that orcs were creatures of beast origin Those bodies then would be soulless and controlled by the power of Morgoth. I am stealing shamelessly from HerenIstarion's excellent notes on orc origin when I supply a few quotes:

"Orcs are beasts and Balrogs corrupted Maiar"

and

I think it must be assumed that 'talking' is not necessarily the sign of the possession of a 'rational soul' or fea. The Orcs were beasts of humanized shape (to mock Men and Elves) deliberately perverted I converted into a more close resemblance to Men. Their 'talking' was really reeling off 'records' set in them by Melkor. Even their rebellious critical words - he knew about them. Melkor taught them speech and as they bred they inherited this; and they had just as much independence as have, say, dogs or horses of their human masters. This talking was largely echoic (cf. parrots). In The Lord of the Rings Sauron is said to have devised a language for them.

both from Morgoth's Ring.

I realize that you have already mentioned not taking chronology into account yet, but I believe it would be helpful to know which theory of orc origin you are dealing with before trying to derive troll origin from the same source. When Tolkien says that they are from similar sources, we cannot automatically assume that corruption of elves is that source, as over his life many theories were tried on and rejected. The theory that he was working with at the time is likely the one to which that quote refers.

Very interesting, though, and something to argue with myself about, if I ever have time to breathe again [img]smilies/wink.gif[/img].

Sophia

[Gwaihir the Windlord]

Yes, I agree with you on the prospect of Trolls being corrupted from Dwarves. The argument someone lists, i.e. why would he create Trolls if he could already corrupt real Dwarves to his side, is flawed however -- why did he create Orcs when he could easily corrupt some Men? Either way, Trolls are quite different creatures from Dwarves, and are mightier foes in battle. The possiblity of the Dwarven origin, however, can of course not be entirely ruled out [img]smilies/smile.gif[/img]. Nothing can really, unless it is totally absurd.

The 'many origin' theory still seems highly unlikely to me. Why would anyone bother?? All Trolls are fundamentally the same; clearly the same type of thing. There are different races among them, some quite different from others; it is also so in Orcs. And, as I have said, Humans, although not to such a great degree. Trolls are one kind of creature that has diversified.

They were probably made by some Maia or other, of course, and quite possibly Morgoth himself -- or Sauron. There is a question, though, of -- if indeed they are a 'stone-based' body or mechanism (similar to the Dwarf model, i.e. a living being out of stone) inhabited by a spirit -- where did their feas come from? The spirits that Trolls are possesed by, if indeed it is not Morgoth himself, do not seem to be those of Houseless Elves or of Maiar, as is usually. They are stupid and altogether seperate from this origin. It would actually seem that they exist in their own right. Hopefully someone will understand what I mean by this?

By the way -- Ungoliant is not unnacounted for, and is a Maia. Be back later, bye.

[Gilthalion]

Regarding the kind of original spirits that may have animated primordial stone-trolls, orcs, dragons, and other darksome critters:

Who can say what generations of the forced mating of elvish thralls under the corruptions of Morgoth's magic may have wrought upon their hapless and increasingly twisted and wicked descendents? Especially if matings were forced with beasts also bred by Morgoth for such purposes. Don't forget that original giants could have been in the mix as well. Remember also that any offspring that did not fit the plan might be culled immediately from the program (sent to the stewpots) or raised up for a short brutal life of harshest slavery.

Trolls may also have been purposefully bred for stupidity, as well as strength. Morgoth may have thought of trolls as most useful if strong, stupid, and easily controlled.

It is difficult to imagine (and not good for the spirit to try to imagine) the depravity of this kind of dark magic, genetic engineering, eugenics, and breeding. (It is unfortunate that we may live to see precisely these sorts of "improvements" made possible by perverted science...)

Elven or Maia spirits may have been used in the first generations of such a program, with Morgoth counting on corruption and dilution in succeeding generations to achieve his goals. It seems that the fading of Elves, which was a direct result of Morgoth's original work, make them particularly suitable spirits for taking posession of other beings. The duress of thralls could have hastened this fading, especially under the direct hand of Morgoth.

It would seem that Sauron understood something of this dark art of corrupting beasts and perverting spirits and continued in this work. (The beasts ridden by the Nazgul, the Olog-Hai...) Unfortunately, Saruman also had insight into the process, and seems to have bred orcs and men to his wicked purposes (I TOLD you it was bad for the spirit!).


All just one old hobbit's theories, of course. As I (and others) wrote earlier, there just doesn't seem to be enough definitive thought left behind by the Professor to come down on the side of any given theory. The best we might do is eliminate postulations that are obviously against what has been published. That leaves plenty of room for folk to choose what ideas suit their fancy.

For what it's worth, this sort of thread might be helpful one day to a fan fiction writer who needs some worthwhile speculation on the origin of Trolls and other twisted creatures of Morgoth for some part in a future work.

I apologize, but I will only be able to reply in brief, and to one selected point (I will also be absent for the next eight days).

By the way -- Ungoliant is not unnacounted for, and is a Maia.

I challenge you to find one quote of canon which classifies Ungoliant as a maia. She is said to be a 'fell thing in spider form'. Although some may simply conclude that she is a maia, this is unfortunately a flawed outlook. Tom Bombadil is some kind of 'thing' in human form. Can we simply then attempt to classify him as a one of the ainur? Like Tom, Ungoliant is an enigma, intentional or no. Yes, she may indeed be a maia, but Tolkien never states this. Therefore, I find it wrong to assume that she is of ainuric origin (this assumption being ever too common). My personal outlook is she is the embodiement of darkness and evil which has taken form, but that, again, is my opinion. Rest assured, though, that she is unaccounted for and unexplained.

There would be many theories on the origins of trolls and please tell me if mine would even be conceivable. What if "in mockery of Ents" means that Iluvitar made them to compete with each other just like other beasts compete (such as rhinos and antelope for example). No species can fluorish without some form of competition. This is just an original theory that would seem to make sense.

[Olorin_TLA]

Well someone just psoted a link to this after someone asked whence Trolls came...very interesting. [img]smilies/smile.gif[/img]

Anyway, thought I'd throw a link to my own thoughts on the Olog-ahi (mainly) here: (wish i hadn't forgotten my account's password! [img]smilies/eek.gif[/img] [img]smilies/frown.gif[/img] [img]smilies/frown.gif[/img] [img]smilies/frown.gif[/img] ) http://forum.barrowdowns.com/cgi-bin...c&f=1&t=001261

[Celebaglar]

This seems to suggest that there are other different forms of Trolls. The breeds of Trolls that are prevalent in Tolkien’s writings, and whose names also are made available in his texts are the Stone-trolls and the Olog-Hai.

[ July 08, 2003: Message edited by: Bilbo ][/QUOTE]
Excellent (if not lengthy) post. On your mention of the olog-hai, I first wish to know what olog means, perhaps that could be a clue to its origin, and I believe that in the appendices of the RotK, tolien mentions something about the olog-hai being theorized as being nothing but large orcs, being as resistant as trolls, but with the malice and cunning of an orc. He also mentions them reappearing on the borders of Mirkwood. There are many things about the races of creatures in middle-earth that i do not know, so excuse me if i am wrong about anything throughout anywhere in this post.