Visit The *EVEN NEWER* Barrow-Downs Photo Page |
03-17-2005, 02:52 PM | #1 |
Animated Skeleton
Join Date: Mar 2005
Location: Among the host of the noldor, and the last high elves that dwell in middle eath
Posts: 31
|
tactical discussion, countering balrogs
I found a post about the tactical ways of destroying the mumakil. I like that thread, and afterreading the silmarillion, i decidedto make a new one. With that said, the balrogs of morgoth were incredibly powerful. But the tactics of countering them depends if they could pick their form. Didn't Ungoliant choose to be a spider? What i want to know is can a balrog have chosen their form, and how would they be countered on the battlefield?
|
03-17-2005, 03:07 PM | #2 |
Ghost Prince of Cardolan
|
Two words: ICBMs.
|
03-17-2005, 03:08 PM | #3 | |
World's Tallest Hobbit
Join Date: Nov 2001
Location: Where the view is long
Posts: 2,117
|
Quote:
In the event that one fails to get Rog back from Valinor, you can always try my personal favorite: tell them that they have no wings (or unable to fly) and watch as they "prove you wrong" by flinging themselves off a cliff.
__________________
'They say that the One will himself enter into Arda, and heal Men and all the Marring from the beginning to the end." Last edited by Lindolirian; 03-17-2005 at 03:57 PM. Reason: to add "or unable to fly" |
|
03-17-2005, 03:29 PM | #4 |
Animated Skeleton
Join Date: Mar 2005
Location: Among the host of the noldor, and the last high elves that dwell in middle eath
Posts: 31
|
haha, but the point is, they really do have wings
|
03-17-2005, 04:37 PM | #5 |
Shade of Carn Dûm
Join Date: Jan 2002
Location: 315, CNY Boys and girls.
Posts: 405
|
Re:
Silmarillion and LOTR class Balrogs are large, deadly, and have mid-ranged weapons (whips) and short ranged weapons (blades).
So the ideal way to kill them is to be in the mountains, on some high cliff that you can throw them off. Luring them to mountains doesn't seem to be hard, they seem to be drawn to the high peaks. Just lead refugees on a mountain pass, and a Balrog will come. Then, all it takes is one being who has seen Valinor, using some leverage to knock the brutes over the precipice. Make sure there isn't a huge lake below ... because the Balrogs will live. But, if it's a fountain ... they'll die. Apparently. Ecthelion drowned Gothmog in a fountain ... of course, Gondolin was in a mountainous region, and there may have been a cliff involved, it may have had sheer, steep walls that Gothmog couldn't just slime his way out of. That explains why Ecthelion couldn't get out either ... that and swimming in a suit of armor. Perhaps the fountain of Gondolin was more like a really big well or reservoir. Anyway, from a tactical point of view ... all it takes is a sword to parry blows and an indeterminable amount of strength to fight with the Balrog until a suitable cliff can be found.
__________________
"I come from yonder...Have you seen Baggins? Baggins has left, he is coming. He is not far away. I wish to find him. If he passes will you tell me? I will come back with gold." - Khamul the Easterling |
03-17-2005, 04:45 PM | #6 |
Registered User
Join Date: Feb 2005
Location: Oklahom
Posts: 44
|
Why would it be that a Noldorin Prince seems to have been a better match for a balrog than another Maia?
|
03-17-2005, 05:57 PM | #7 |
Animated Skeleton
Join Date: Mar 2005
Location: Among the host of the noldor, and the last high elves that dwell in middle eath
Posts: 31
|
What reason had the maia to be fighting the balrogs, the noldor were not suited, they just came across the noldor.
|
03-17-2005, 06:36 PM | #8 | |
World's Tallest Hobbit
Join Date: Nov 2001
Location: Where the view is long
Posts: 2,117
|
Quote:
In all seriousness, the most tried and true way to kill a Balrog has been casting him from a great height, but that's not always and option. Ecthelion killed Gothmog by stabbing with the spike of his helm, which I find downright hilarious. Correct me if I'm wrong but the only other descriptions of Balrog deaths are Glorfindel's and Gandalf's which were both done in by a great fall. Gothmog is the only one who gives us evidence that Balrogs can be killed by a physical wound which implies that their spirits are more tied to their bodies than Sauron's. Just ask Luthien and Huan about that one. So the trick is either to overwhelm them by numbers (Rog and his House), impale them (Ecthelion), or toss them off a mountain. Now if each of these fail, I'd say just send in a MOAB
__________________
'They say that the One will himself enter into Arda, and heal Men and all the Marring from the beginning to the end." |
|
03-17-2005, 11:13 PM | #9 |
Scion of The Faithful
Join Date: Apr 2003
Location: The brink, where hope and despair are akin. [The Philippines]
Posts: 5,312
|
Aside from ICBMs (MIRVed or not), MOABs, and lone fighters, you can kill Balrogs with an absurdly large army of Maiar and Valinor Elves.
Probably except those that will hide in inaccessible caverns deep underground.
__________________
フェンリス鴨 (Fenrisu Kamo) The plot, cut, defeated. I intend to copy this sig forever - so far so good...
|
03-22-2005, 04:19 AM | #10 |
Ghost Prince of Cardolan
Join Date: Oct 2003
Location: Essex, England
Posts: 886
|
I usually find that about 15 hits of the Balrog with a 'bolt of the valar' from Gandalf usually does the trick. And as long as Idrial is there to bump up gandalf's health now and then there's no problem.
Sorry, couldn't resist. |
03-22-2005, 10:43 AM | #11 | |
Ghost Prince of Cardolan
|
Quote:
|
|
03-22-2005, 12:31 PM | #12 |
Wight
Join Date: Jan 2003
Location: dor-lomin, of course
Posts: 167
|
If a fall can kill a Balrog, why didn't Durin's Bane die when he and Gandalf fell a million miles down from the bridge?
I mean, just think of how fast they'd be going after falling that far. Hitting water going that fast should kill you, right?
__________________
I used to be indecisive. Now, I'm not so sure. |
03-22-2005, 03:05 PM | #13 | |
Doubting Dwimmerlaik
Join Date: Dec 2004
Location: Heaven's basement
Posts: 2,466
|
Quote:
Though not very obvious from the book, obviously Gandalf gives the Roggie more than a few paper cuts and spells (lightning bolts, fireballs, something?) before he casts him into ruin on the mountain. |
|
03-22-2005, 07:51 PM | #14 | |
Sword of Spirit
Join Date: Aug 2003
Location: Oh, I'm around.
Posts: 1,401
|
Originally posted by alatar:
Quote:
In the examples above, there seems to be a trend that you can physically hurt a balrog. (Falls, magic spells, helmet spikes...) It would make sense then that you could injure it enough to remove spirit from body. After all, that is death. The more pain inflicted, the farther apart a beings physical and spiritual parts move. It would probably take awhile, but it seems very possible to me that a balrog could simply be beaten to death. Now, doing that before it kills you is the hard part.
__________________
I'm on a Mission from God. |
|
03-22-2005, 09:07 PM | #15 |
Ghost Prince of Cardolan
|
It's news that Balrogs are physically vulnerable?
|
03-22-2005, 10:05 PM | #16 |
Beloved Shadow
|
concerning falling Balrogs
Terminal velocity for a human falling with his legs and arms stretched out is around 120 mph. That's pretty much as slow as you can fall.
Balled up- 200 mph Maximum recorded free fall speed without any special equipment- 321 mph That is really fast. There is no doubt that such a fall would kill a person on land. Falling out of Celeborn and Galadriel's flet would likely kill someone. Water is a different story. Yes, it's true that water is more like a solid at high speeds (think skipping stones- or airplanes). I've gone water skiing before and yeah- when you try to flip and wipe out at 50 miles an hour you're going to skip a couple times and probably get a couple bruises, but it's not that bad. It's definitely possible to survive a 100 mph fall into water. There was a jet pilot who bailed out at 10,000 plus feet and survived the dive into the ocean. So no, the fall into the water did not have to kill or maim Gandalf and Durin's Bane. But I bet they got a wicked welt, especially if they belly-flopped. Ouch.
__________________
the phantom has posted.
This thread is now important. Last edited by the phantom; 03-22-2005 at 10:27 PM. Reason: more stuff |
03-24-2005, 04:47 PM | #17 |
Animated Skeleton
Join Date: Mar 2005
Location: Among the host of the noldor, and the last high elves that dwell in middle eath
Posts: 31
|
Why would gandalf call Durin's Bane "Flame of Udun" when Balrogs had barely anything to do with Udun?
|
03-24-2005, 05:06 PM | #18 | |
Ghost Prince of Cardolan
|
Quote:
|
|
03-24-2005, 07:37 PM | #19 | |
Animated Skeleton
Join Date: Mar 2005
Location: Among the host of the noldor, and the last high elves that dwell in middle eath
Posts: 31
|
Quote:
Please sir, I am not ignorant. If you need proof of Gandalf saying this, it is in the chapter "the bridge of khazad-dum". And what does the balrog have to do with Udun? |
|
03-24-2005, 08:18 PM | #20 |
Ghost Prince of Cardolan
|
I didn't say Gandalf didn't say it, I said that if what you say is true ("Balrogs had barely anything to do with Udun"), he wouldn't have said what he said. As you've unnecessarily proven, however, Gandalf did say that. Therefore your claim that Balrogs had little to do with Udun is incorrect.
|
03-25-2005, 02:21 PM | #21 |
Sword of Spirit
Join Date: Aug 2003
Location: Oh, I'm around.
Posts: 1,401
|
I agree with Celebaglar on this one. Udun was the land between the Black Gate and the Plateau of Gorgoroth. The balrogs were servants of Morgoth, not Sauron, and likely would never have gone to Mordor for any reason. Even besides that, Durin's Bane had been asleep in Moria long before Sauron set up his stronghold within Mordor. So what would the Balrog have to do with Udun?
(Just to clarify: I'm not saying that it doesn't have anything to do with Udun, I just don't see any reasonable reason that it would.)
__________________
I'm on a Mission from God. |
03-25-2005, 02:27 PM | #22 |
Ghost Prince of Cardolan
|
Udun is Sindarin for the Quenya word Utumno, which was the name of Morgoth's original subterranean stronghold.
|
03-25-2005, 02:33 PM | #23 |
Sword of Spirit
Join Date: Aug 2003
Location: Oh, I'm around.
Posts: 1,401
|
Well, there's that reasonable reason I was looking for. Thanks a bunch, obloquy!
Oh yes, one thing I would certainly do if confronting a Balrog: Ask him if he had wings or not, just so I'd know before I died.
__________________
I'm on a Mission from God. |
|
|