Gothic/Frankish sources for Middle-earth words? - The Barrow-Downs Discussion Forum

Tuor of Gondolin · 04-17-2005, 12:29 PM

Upon first reading LOTR I was struck by Peregrin Took's
nickname, and wondered if it was a conscious or subconscious
allusion to some of Charlemagne's ancestors. Then in
Carpenter's Bio he notes Tolkien's interest in Gothic being
whetted upon buying Joe Wright's "Primer of the Gothic
Language." In historical context, Pippin I and Pippin II
were mayors of the Palace in Austrasia and Charles Martel
"The Hammer", who turned back the Moors was Pippin II's
son. And Charles Martel's son, Pippin III, was also known
as Pippin the Short.

Pippin III was Charlemagne's father.

Given Tolkien's use of Norse mythology for dwarf names and
Gandalf, is there a similar pattern in place and person names
in, say, Rohan?

However, in the same magazine article in which questions about the
name Pippin were reawakened (Military Heritage,
June, 2005, p. 68 ) there is a comment which would seem to
indicate that Frankish cavalry was not especially talented, and so
might not be the source for Tolkien for the Rohirrim:

Quote:

Charlemagne also learned from his enemies. Although he managed to defeat the less disciplined Lombard and Avars fairly easily, he recognized their innate superiority as horsemen and soon put them to use in his own way.

(Somewhat reminiscent of the way Denethor hoped to use the Rohirrim
against Sauron just before the Battle of the Pelennor Fields).

Oh, and is Meriadoc of Frankish origin? (As may be obvious, I'm
no linguist or philologist. But, as Cliff Claven once observed in an episode
of Cheers: "Hey, inquiring minds want to know."

Mithalwen · 04-17-2005, 02:21 PM

The appendices expalin Meriadoc - it was chosen in order to reflect the meaning of his true hobbit name "Kalimac" and to have a Celtic feel .

Formendacil · 04-17-2005, 03:22 PM

As far as I can tell, there is no connection between the nickname of Peregrin Took, and the forefathers of Charlemagne. I've always understood (although I really have no sources to quote), that Pippin is just a sort of nickname that Tolkien devised, sounding like a rather bouncy, cheerful, not-all-that-careful type of person, such a Pippin (or as he tells Treebeard- even Pip!). I've always thought it was perhaps related to "pipsqueak".

04-17-2005, 02:21 PM	#2
Mithalwen Pilgrim Soul Join Date: May 2004 Location: watching the wonga-wonga birds circle... Posts: 9,449	The appendices expalin Meriadoc - it was chosen in order to reflect the meaning of his true hobbit name "Kalimac" and to have a Celtic feel . __________________ “But Finrod walks with Finarfin his father beneath the trees in Eldamar.” Christopher Tolkien, Requiescat in pace

04-17-2005, 03:22 PM	#3
Formendacil Dead Serious Join Date: Jan 2005 Location: Perched on Thangorodrim's towers. Posts: 3,311	As far as I can tell, there is no connection between the nickname of Peregrin Took, and the forefathers of Charlemagne. I've always understood (although I really have no sources to quote), that Pippin is just a sort of nickname that Tolkien devised, sounding like a rather bouncy, cheerful, not-all-that-careful type of person, such a Pippin (or as he tells Treebeard- even Pip!). I've always thought it was perhaps related to "pipsqueak". __________________ I prefer history, true or feigned.