Relative Powers

[drigel]

You're assuming here that Huan is a Maia, while there's no text supporting that idea, as far as I know.

here's another rub to the list that I havent thought until now - the power of fate or doom (or prophecy), as it incorporates with the characters, examples:

WK was not going to be slain by any "man" - wouldnt that default him above at least all the human males? What about elvish males?

Huan -

.....and it was decreed that he should meet death, but not until he encountered the mightiest wolf that would ever walk the world.

so, regardless of the Maiar issue, a timeline to be considered - any entity having hostile actions towards Huan before the wolf encounter would be dealing not only with Huan, but also with the doom that was bound to to that hound dog.

After all, we seem to be judging a person's/thing's 'power' by its effect on the world/other people.

- remove The Ring

Or, if you include objects, then consider others - the Watchers, Orthanc, the Mirror of Galadriel, etc etc.

[narfforc]

I think the problem with a list like this, is its fragmentation. If you were to sub-catergorize into species or items, sort them out into some kind of order, then you could try and slot them into place. At the moment there is a lot of problems trying to come to terms with species against species, and there are persons in the wrong order in there own catergory. This will also cause problems no doubt, with people claiming Elendil to be more powerful than Aragorn. One thing to remember Middle-Earth was in decline, and so were its people, The Three were made to hold back that decay. Another problem to occur is that of double entries, or in the case of Olorin/Gandalf the Grey/White, triple. If this is the case then what do we do with Feanor, do we place him as the greatest elf that ever lived, then put in another entry for him somewhere further down the list, after the madness of The Kinslaying. Another one is the Hurin/Turin saga, should we look at individuals at the greatest moment , or at their worst/weakest. If the list intended to show what order individuals were in solely on the height of their powers, then it would be very different than at their lowest.


Sorry The 1,000th Reader, but Turin didn't stab Glaurung while he slept, he did it as the worm crossed a ravine, after he had been sleeping.

[littlemanpoet]

Originally Posted by drigel

here's another rub to the list that I havent thought until now - the power of fate or doom (or prophecy), as it incorporates with the characters ... any entity having hostile actions towards Huan before the wolf encounter would be dealing not only with Huan, but also with the doom that was bound to to that hound dog. ... Or, if you include objects, then consider others - the Watchers, Orthanc, the Mirror of Galadriel, etc etc.

All of this is very much to the point, drigel. Well done!

Originally Posted by narfforc

Another problem to occur is that of double entries, or in the case of Olorin/Gandalf the Grey/White, triple.

I'm okay with this. I think the multiple entries helps to delineate what we're talking about because in a story characters cannot be static. Some rise, others fall. It could be argued, however, that Fëanor, for example, never lessened at all, but the power of the Oath overwhelmed him .... which is saying something rather important since he is "the greatest of the Children of Iluvatar" (Sil, p. 96).

Originally Posted by obloquy

Additionally, there is Tolkien's footnote to Myths Transformed (in which he debates the nature of the Eagles and Huan) that says "As the Valar would robe themselves like the Children, many of the Maiar robed themselves like other lesser living things, as trees, flowers, beasts. (Huan.)"

Warning: potential Tolkien heresy ahead: I distrust Tolkien's latter day (1965-1973) theologizing and philosophizing about his Legendarium, especially as he was rethinking the whole thing from a round world mythos starting point. However, your quote in this instance seems reasonably fairminded (out of context, since I don't have the tome [and don't want it but have read it]).

Originally Posted by obloquy

... this prophecy had nothing to do with power, just a prediction of events.

Hello?!? Since when does prophecy not have to do with power? Since when is "just a prediction of events" ... "just a prediction"? Prophecy is ALWAYS a phenomenon involving power - power of the word. Who spoke it? That person and his/her source of knowledge must be factored into an understanding of the power wielded in order to fulfill the prophecy.

Originally Posted by Formendacil

I respectfully submit to the littlemanpoets of the jury that Sauron be placed above Lúthien and Huan.

So noted. Sound reasoning that is true to the texts wins out.

Updated List

[Thalion]

Can someone explain how the Blue Istari are placed above Radagast? I gotta believe Radagast places higher than 2 wizards who are never fully described...seeing as how there is very little on the Blue Istari under those names and we have at least that Radagast has some power over Birds, Animals, ect..., he should rank higher...

Alternatively, if Olorin and Gandalf get different entries, then Alatar and Pallando should be different entries than blue Istari and these should be ranked accordingly...but since there isn't much on Alatar, Pallando, OR Blue Istari (except that the Blue Istari failed in their mission because they presumably went into the East and never came into the story again), and there is at least some power residing in Radagast over birds/beasts/ect, then he should still rank higher

[Aiwendil]

While I agree with those who have argued that this kind of list is ultimately impossible to reasonably construct, a few points do seem quite wrong to me in the list.

First, I agree with Thalion about Radagast. Why is he placed so low? He should be roughly as high as the other Istari; and I would place him above the Blue Wizards. Of course, the place of the Blue Wizards themselves can be no more than an uninformed guess, since we have no real information about them.

Second, why is Beren lower Aragorn? I would place him roughly on par with Hurin and Turin. For that matter, Tuor (who is missing from the list) should be on about that level as well.

Third, why is Arwen so high? As far as I can tell, her "power" consists entirely of beauty and banner-weaving ability.

Fourth, I think Ungoliant ought to be higher. She is a strange and unique figure in the Legendarium, and she seems (to me, at least), to have a kind of profound, primordial power. Consider that she almost defeated Morgoth before the Balrogs came to his aid.

That brings us to Morgoth. It seems to me that if we distinguish between Gandalf the Grey and Gandalf the White, we ought also to distinguish the primordial Melkor from the pseudo-historical Morgoth, who had divested himself of most of his power and was even wounded by Fingolfin.

I also don't understand why the Balrogs are not higher; nor why Frodo is as high as he is.

[Legolas]

Ungoliant appears to be more powerful than Ancalagon, though I don't know of any characteristics of the two that we can compare. Morgoth struggled with Ungoliant and could not control her. Would he have struggled with Ancalagon if he turned against him?

Third, why is Arwen so high? As far as I can tell, her "power" consists entirely of beauty and banner-weaving ability.

Apparently she was also a good cook (per oblo's post). On a serious note, she is overrated in my estimation - I definitely would not place her above the three wizards (or even Hurin, Turin, Beren maybe?).

Is Galadriel truly the most powerful of the Noldorin royal line?

[Thalion]

Fourth, I think Ungoliant ought to be higher. She is a strange and unique figure in the Legendarium, and she seems (to me, at least), to have a kind of profound, primordial power. Consider that she almost defeated Morgoth before the Balrogs came to his aid.

I'm not entirely sure where I would place Ungoliant, but I think there is something that is being lost here in the discussion of her battle with Morgoth. When Morgoth was almost defeated by Ungoliant, it was because she had within her the light of the two trees of Valinor..., the light gave presumably immense power that combined with her "natural" strength/power/ability was nearly too much for Morgoth (reminiscent somewhat of Carcharoth when he had the Silmaril in him)

When making a determination of where to place Ungoliant, it should therefore be noted that her placing on the list should be deminative of what I would deem her "natural power", not that as it was magnified as a result of the light of the trees within her...

[Lalaith]

Legolas, Tolkien says Galadriel was

the greatest of the Noldor, except Feanor maybe,though she was wiser than he

[Formendacil]

Originally Posted by Thalion

I'm not entirely sure where I would place Ungoliant, but I think there is something that is being lost here in the discussion of her battle with Morgoth. When Morgoth was almost defeated by Ungoliant, it was because she had within her the light of the two trees of Valinor..., the light gave presumably immense power that combined with her "natural" strength/power/ability was nearly too much for Morgoth (reminiscent somewhat of Carcharoth when he had the Silmaril in him)

When making a determination of where to place Ungoliant, it should therefore be noted that her placing on the list should be deminative of what I would deem her "natural power", not that as it was magnified as a result of the light of the trees within her...

I agree in general, Thalion, that Ungoliant's position on the list should be made with the her normal abilities in mind, but those normal abilities would appear to be fairly large to begin with.

Let us first look at Shelob, Ungoliant's offspring. Shelob is a pretty fearsome creature. Sam had the luck to be carrying a Gondolin-wrought sword on which Shelob was foolish enough to impale herself, but it says right there in the text that any other sort of assault would have been pretty much futile. "Not though the hand of Beren, Húrin, or Túrin wielded it" says the text, more or less.

Therefore, Shelob is a pretty fearsome creature. How much moreso, therefore, should Ungoliant be? After all, just as the Spiders of Mirkwood are the offspring (or so it appears) of Shelob and males of lesser stature, I seem to recall it being said that Ungoliant mated with lesser males, thus producing children- of which Shelob is one.

Therefore, if we assume a similar disparity of power between Ungoliant and Shelob as between Shelob and her offspring, we get a pretty powerful being indeed.

Personally, I should place Ungoliant just below the Balrogs- or possibly above, since the case could be made that it took all of them to drive her off, and that one of them couldn't have done so alone.