Saruman for or against Sauron?

[Raynor]

Originally Posted by Mansun

Aragorn does not have the great power of Gandalf, even if he has a strong will.

True, but that didn't seem to matter much to Gandalf in the quote above.

Denethor would have been a more realistic thought in the mind of the enemy, given that he was the Lord of Minas Tirith at the time of the war.

However, he was much weakened and affected by his contest with Sauron. I expect that Saruman would find out about that one way or the other - spies, rumors, Sauron himself, the palantir.

Originally Posted by Raynor

True, but that didn't seem to matter much to Gandalf in the quote above.

However, he was much weakened and affected by his contest with Sauron. I expect that Saruman would find out about that one way or the other - spies, rumors, Sauron himself, the palantir.

As for your first point, it did matter to Lady Galadriel. Secondly, the LOTR clearly states that Denethor was most displeased with the Ring going to Mordor. He wanted it in Minas Tirith, to be used only at the uttermost end of need. So there is not a case to say he was too weak or had no desire to wield the Ring. The only question in his mind was, who should wield it?

[Raynor]

Originally Posted by Mansun

As for your first point, it did matter to Lady Galadriel.

What do you mean?

Secondly, the LOTR clearly states that Denethor was most displeased with the Ring going to Mordor. He wanted it in Minas Tirith, to be used only at the uttermost end of need. So there is not a case to say he was too weak or had no desire to wield the Ring.

If we are speculating what Saruman thought about the likely wielder of the ring, then I believe that, in his eyes, the fact that Denethor wanted it could not overcome the negative effects of his contest with Sauron. However, I also believe we are taking really long shots here.

Originally Posted by Raynor

What do you mean?

Recall the words of Galadriel to Frodo on the wielding of the Ring. One who desires to wield it will only succeed by having a great power of their own, & more besides.

The Ring was Denethor's last hope of success against Sauron. To think he had already been defeated before even learning of the fate of the Ring Bearer going to Mordor is quite astonishing to claim. He sent Boromir to Rivendell in the hope he may gain support from the Wise to use the Ring in Minas Tirith, did he not?

[Raynor]

Originally Posted by Mansun

One who desires to wield it will only succeed by having a great power of their own, & more besides.

Her exact words are:

Originally Posted by Mirror of Galadriel

Did not Gandalf tell you that the rings give power according to the measure of each possessor?

Why do you think this would exclude Aragorn?

To think he had already been defeated before even learning of the fate of the going to Mordor is quite astonishing to claim.

Can you rephrase that?

Raynor, you have been a nuisance in other threads, & you are edging ever closer to that status here too. You know full well that Galadriel told Frodo that one who wishes to wield the Ring must have a great power of their own first. I will not quote the exact words, as you should know exactly what I am talking about.

[Raynor]

Originally Posted by Mansun

Galadriel told Frodo that one who wishes to wield the Ring must have a great power of their own first. I will not quote the exact words, as you should know exactly what I am talking about.

Where exactly is it said that Aragorn does not have the required power? And it would be nice of you if you stop making personal comments.

Originally Posted by Raynor

Where exactly is it said that Aragorn does not have the required power? And it would be nice of you if you stop making personal comments.

Where exactly does it say Prince Imrahil does not have the power to wield the Ring? These sorts of questions are annoying aren't they?

Think of the personal comment as a Gandalf vs Pippin scenario .

[Gil-Galad]

this argument amuses Gil-Galad. continue.

[William Cloud Hicklin]

[Denethor] sent Boromir to Rivendell in the hope he may gain support from the Wise to use the Ring in Minas Tirith, did he not?

I believe you've been led astray by the movies. Denethor knew nothing of the Ring, nor did Boromir or Faramir, when the elder son departed. He was merely enquiring as to the meaning of his strange dream (wherein 'Isildur's Bane' is not clarified, and indeed Boromir thought it might be an Orc-arrow)

Originally Posted by William Cloud Hickli

I believe you've been led astray by the movies. Denethor knew nothing of the Ring, nor did Boromir or Faramir, when the elder son departed. He was merely enquiring as to the meaning of his strange dream (wherein 'Isildur's Bane' is not clarified, and indeed Boromir thought it might be an Orc-arrow)

I believe you have made a mistake here - recall the words of Boromir when the Ring was presented to the Council. He desired to use it for the war against Mordor. Also, recall the words of Denethor on his son's role :"He would have brought me a mighty gift".

[William Cloud Hicklin]

I believe you have made a mistake here - recall the words of Boromir when the Ring was presented to the Council. He desired to use it for the war against Mordor. Also, recall the words of Denethor on his son's role :"He would have brought me a mighty gift".

Boromir's speech at the Council occurs only after he has been told the Ring's history and Frodo displays "Isildur's Bane;" and even then Boromir is at first dubious.

As for Denethor, his tongue-lashing of Faramir occurs after Gandalf has let him in on the secret; and the context of course is What if Boromir had been in Ithilien? Nothing to do with the Fellowship. No-one in Gondor knew about the Ring until Gandalf's arrival in March. Remember, at the Council when Elrond relates that Isildur took the Ring, Boromir is shocked, and says expressly that this 'little' fact was completely unknown in the South. Only in Arnor and Rivendell was the truth known.

The whole notion that Denethor knew about the Ring and about the Council*, and despatched Boromir expressly to grab it for him, is an invention of Peter Jackson and his co-conspirators.


*to which no invitations were sent! Boromir in fact left Minas Tirith several weeks before Frodo ever departed Bag-end.

Originally Posted by William Cloud Hickli

Boromir's speech at the Council occurs only after he has been told the Ring's history and Frodo displays "Isildur's Bane;" and even then Boromir is at first dubious.

As for Denethor, his tongue-lashing of Faramir occurs after Gandalf has let him in on the secret; and the context of course is What if Boromir had been in Ithilien? Nothing to do with the Fellowship. No-one in Gondor knew about the Ring until Gandalf's arrival in March. Remember, at the Council when Elrond relates that Isildur took the Ring, Boromir is shocked, and says expressly that this 'little' fact was completely unknown in the South. Only in Arnor and Rivendell was the truth known.

The whole notion that Denethor knew about the Ring and about the Council*, and despatched Boromir expressly to grab it for him, is an invention of Peter Jackson and his co-conspirators.


*to which no invitations were sent! Boromir in fact left Minas Tirith several weeks before Frodo ever departed Bag-end.

Do you believe that Denethor had no knowledge of a Hobbit possessing the Ring before sending Boromir to Rivendell? At the very least he would have known the Ring had been found. He also had the Palantir to help him see things others knew nothing of.

[Boromir88]

Do you believe that Denethor had no knowledge of a Hobbit possessing the Ring before sending Boromir to Rivendell?~Mansun

I do.

For the simple fact that even if Denethor knew Frodo possessed the Ring (which I don't think there's anything to suggest that he did know), Boromir sets out for Rivendell on July 4th 3018, Frodo doesn't leave Bag End until September 23rd and has no idea he's going to Rivendell until he runs into Aragorn at Bree on the 29th.

And as WCH mentions, most in Gondor seemed to think Isildur's Bane referred to the orc arrow that slew him. Faramir thought so until he deducted that Isildur's Bane couldn't have been an orc arrow:

'...Nor when the riddling words of our dream were debated among us, did I think of Isildur's Bane as being this same thing. For Isildur was ambushed and slain by orc-arrows, according to the only legend that we knew, and Mithrandir had never told me more.'~The Window on the West

Both Boromir and Faramir had a riddle in their dreams regarding Isildur's Bane...and as both would say they had no clue it was a Ring. Apparently neither did Denethor:

'Of these words we could understand little, and we spoke to our father, Denethor, Lord of Minas Tirith, wise in the lore of Gondor. This only would he say, that Imladris was of old the name among the Elves of a far northern dale, where Elrond the Halfelven dwelt, greatest of Lore-masters....'~The Council of Elrond

Even if Denethor knew Isildur's Bane meant Sauron's Ring, before Boromir left for Rivendell (which there is nothing suggesting that he did), he didn't let Boromir or Faramir know this bit of info. As both Boromir and Faramir's story say the same thing when they went to their father to interpret the Riddle...they both (at that time) thought Isildur's Bane were the orc-arrows that slew him.

[William Cloud Hicklin]

I would add Boromir's statement at the council:

[Elrond:]'...and Isildur cut the Ring from his hand with the hilt-shard of his father's sword, and took it for his own.'

At this the stranger, Boromir, broke in. 'So that is what became of the Ring!' he cried. 'If ever such a tale was told in the South, it has long been forgotten. I have heard of the Great Ring of him that we do not name; but we believed that it perished from the world in the ruin of his first realm. Isildur took it! That is tidings indeed!'.......

[Elrond:]'Only to the North did these tidings come, and only to a few. Small wonder is it that you have not heard them, Boromir. From the ruin of the Gladden Fields, where Isildur perished, three men only came ever back....'

And after the Halfling, the Sword, and the Bane have been revealed, he says:

'I was not sent to beg any boon, but to seek only the meaning of a riddle,' answered Boromir proudly. 'Yet we are hard pressed, and the Sword of Elendil would be a help beyond our hope'

And Gandalf:

'And Boromir, there lies in Minas Tirith still, unread, I guess, by any save Saruman and myself since the kings failed, a scroll that Isildur made himself.

Certainly no news could possibly have reached Denethor about the Ring having been found or being in the possession of a Hobbit: indeed it was a secret known only to Gandalf, Frodo, Elrond and Aragorn in full prior to the Council. Bilbo and his Dwarven friends knew he had *a* Ring, which was not the same as *the* Ring; Sauron himself only got wind of it by torturing Gollum, of whom of course Denethor knew nothing; and Saruman was just beginning to guess at the time Boromir departed. In short, Denethor was as ignorant as Boromir of the Ring's existence, until Gandalf told him personally on the eve of the Siege.

Originally Posted by Gil-Galad

this argument amuses Gil-Galad. continue.

Do you want a taste of Gandalf's staff too?

[Nazgûl-king]

My first comment here!

I think that Saurman thought he could become Sauron, if he could get the Ring, and that perhaps he joined with Sauron in the hopes that he might get information that would be of use to him. I think Saruman intended to use his allegiance with Sauron as a cover for his true intensions of trying to get the Ring. I also think that in the films they should have shown Saurman as more of his own force rather then just a poppet of Sauron.