Visit The *EVEN NEWER* Barrow-Downs Photo Page |
04-18-2009, 08:55 AM | #41 | ||||
Haunting Spirit
Join Date: Feb 2009
Location: The Halls of Mandos
Posts: 86
|
Quote:
I tried my hand at a replacement passage, and got this: Quote:
Quote:
(Oh, and the "but" at the beginning of the first line (181) should be capitalized like it was in Tolkien's version: I already changed it in my post.) |
||||
04-18-2009, 09:14 AM | #42 |
Late Istar
Join Date: Mar 2001
Posts: 2,224
|
Your suggested lines are quite good, but I'm afraid I still think it's too great a liberty for us to take. I still prefer to keep the prose passage.
|
04-19-2009, 10:46 AM | #43 |
King's Writer
Join Date: Jul 2002
Posts: 1,717
|
I must say that I disagree with you Aiwendil. The Lay is in this part for sure the most detailed text we have. That makes in natrually to our basic text. From that we have two tasks: 1. we have to bring the text to the cannon version of the story line in generall and in detail and 2. we have to add details otherwise lost if possible. A compareable situation we have had in the Lay of Leithian. We were in the lucky situation that we only found one very small passages at the departure of Beren and Felagund from Nargothrond, were we had to actually produce ryming lines. But we did aviod breaking the poem by prose inserts and we did so by propose. Here prose inserts are more acceptable here, that is true, because we already jump backward and forward between prose and poem.
But in this case we would aviod a break between a 290 line part of poem and a 560 line part. And the prose froming that break is only 5 lines of which 1 1/2 is an anyway an artifical expansion of an note from the author. Aran, I like your lines, so I have to agree to Aiwendil that you might have used a bit to much freedom with the text. At least I would aviod the jump back to Beleg as observer. The two lines 'And seeing this heaume, __ with sight of elves,/Beleg the bowman __ did burn with cold wrath:' could be skipt with an semikolon in the line above. And so I know that it is alway easy to critisise, I still have to say that 'casque' is hard to bear. It is too french. Respectfully Findegil |
04-20-2009, 03:42 PM | #44 | |
Haunting Spirit
Join Date: Feb 2009
Location: The Halls of Mandos
Posts: 86
|
I must admit, I am torn here. I agree with Aiwendil that this seems too much of a textual liberty, but I also agree that when the main text is poetry we should edit with poetry.
Findegil suggested altering the lines to: Quote:
As an aside, I just noticed that the line "Tied the man lay to __ a trunk of a tree" doesn't seem to alliterate properly. We should try and find a suitable fix for it. |
|
04-20-2009, 09:10 PM | #45 | ||
Late Istar
Join Date: Mar 2001
Posts: 2,224
|
Findegil wrote:
Quote:
But here the situation is slightly different, as we could incorporate the details in question via a paragraph of prose. The question is whether Aran's (or any other) proposed lines of verse constitute an acceptable 'minimal alteration' of the note that suggests the story. If they do not, then we are constrained to using the prose passage. It's a good point, though, that this is very similar to the issue we faced in 'Beren and Luthien' where we contrived some lines based on GA. I was hesitant about that too, but I suppose we have a precedent for accepting a few lines of verse, closely based on some prose source. So I'm ambivalent (as usual!). In the event we do use the verse passage, I would suggest a few small emendations: Quote:
|
||
04-21-2009, 08:17 AM | #46 |
Haunting Spirit
Join Date: Feb 2009
Location: The Halls of Mandos
Posts: 86
|
I agree with all your changes (I actually meant to change "mocking he set" to "mocking set," but forgot) except for line 188. I think "did tauntingly" fits better here.
And I used the spelling "casque" from a line earlier in the work: when Thingol receives the helm. I'm not sure if the Anglicized version is even correct; usually it means a large barrel. |
04-21-2009, 01:46 PM | #47 | ||
King's Writer
Join Date: Jul 2002
Posts: 1,717
|
Since Tolkien used casque himself (which is bit strange but true) it is the better word.
For line 188 I have to agree to Aiwendil that 'tauntingly scorned' is the better second half-line. The alliteration has to be at the first sylable with emphasis. Thus 'did' is not that good a the start of the line. I think we have now a very good alliteritive version which we could use. So I am all the more for using it instat of the prose lines. Aiwendil worte: Quote:
About Winter comes to Nargothrond: Quote:
Respectfully Findegil Last edited by Findegil; 04-21-2009 at 03:12 PM. |
||
04-21-2009, 03:07 PM | #48 | ||
Haunting Spirit
Join Date: Feb 2009
Location: The Halls of Mandos
Posts: 86
|
Actually the form with "did" matches almost exactly the form of one of the lines in "The Flight of the Noldoli:"
Quote:
Quote:
|
||
04-21-2009, 06:18 PM | #49 | |
Late Istar
Join Date: Mar 2001
Posts: 2,224
|
Well, obviuosly since Tolkien used 'casque' it can stay. (The spelling 'cask' has been used with the meaning of 'helmet' according to the OED, so I'm surprised Tolkien spelled it the French way).
Line 188: I think either 'did taunting scorn' or 'tauntingly scorned' is a perfectly good half-line. If I recall correctly, the former is a type B and the latter a type E verse. I suppose if Aran prefers 'did taunting scorn' we can go with that - indeed, it might be better simply because B verses are more common than E. I think I now agree to using the alliterative passage rather than the prose. Quote:
I'm a little less sure about Winter Comes to Nargothrond. As much as I love this poem, I don't know if we really gain much of anything by chopping it up and inserting it into the Lay. So I think I lean toward omitting it and sticking with the Lay as written. |
|
04-21-2009, 08:23 PM | #50 |
Haunting Spirit
Join Date: Feb 2009
Location: The Halls of Mandos
Posts: 86
|
If I may make one last comment on this portion, I would drop a couple words to make: "To the trunk of a tree __ trammeled he lay" into "To trunk of tree __ trammeled he lay," unless you don't like that. The first seems to have too many syllables for my taste.
|
04-21-2009, 08:55 PM | #51 | |
Late Istar
Join Date: Mar 2001
Posts: 2,224
|
That works for me. As long as we're making minor suggestions, though, how about:
Quote:
|
|
04-22-2009, 03:37 AM | #52 | |
King's Writer
Join Date: Jul 2002
Posts: 1,717
|
About Winter comes to Nargothrond: What about using it later as an entity? Like this:
Quote:
Respectfully Findegil |
|
04-22-2009, 07:57 AM | #53 | |
Haunting Spirit
Join Date: Feb 2009
Location: The Halls of Mandos
Posts: 86
|
Quote:
I'm not so sure about "Winter Comes to Nargothrond." |
|
04-24-2009, 09:07 AM | #54 |
Late Istar
Join Date: Mar 2001
Posts: 2,224
|
I'm hesitant to use 'Winter Comes to Nargothrond' there since so many lines are repeated (more or less exactly) from the Lay. I think in the end we must simply drop the poem.
|
04-26-2009, 12:33 PM | #55 |
King's Writer
Join Date: Jul 2002
Posts: 1,717
|
Well, I suposse there will be some space for it in the appendix.
Respectfully Findegil |
04-29-2009, 03:56 AM | #56 | ||||||
Late Istar
Join Date: Mar 2001
Posts: 2,224
|
A few further issues I've noticed:
NA-RG-29: Here the revision places alliteration on the last stress of the line, which is not allowed: Quote:
Quote:
NA-TI-28: It would be nice to know whether this passage in the ’77 and in CoH is from a Narn text or simply derived from GA. If the latter, then it would be better for us to follow GA and include the detail that Turin refrains from wedding Finduilas because he does not wish to bring his curse upon her. However, UT seems to suggest that the passage in question does derive from the Narn. NA-TI-29: We miss the statement that Orodreth gives Turin greater honour when he learns his identity, because in our version the material about Turin’s counsels and the adoption of open warfare by the Elves of Nargothrond comes before the material on Finduilas. However, I think it would be advisable to retain the statement. I suppose the simplest thing would be just to do this: Quote:
Quote:
Quote:
Quote:
|
||||||
04-29-2009, 09:35 AM | #57 | ||||
King's Writer
Join Date: Jul 2002
Posts: 1,717
|
Posted by Aiwendil
Quote:
Quote:
Quote:
Quote:
Findegil |
||||
04-29-2009, 01:17 PM | #58 | ||||
Haunting Spirit
Join Date: Feb 2009
Location: The Halls of Mandos
Posts: 86
|
Quote:
Quote:
So Túrin has never seen Niënor, he has only heard of her. |
||||
04-30-2009, 03:56 AM | #59 |
King's Writer
Join Date: Jul 2002
Posts: 1,717
|
The question is which text is realy the original Tolkien text. Is it the one given in the Sil77 or the one given in CoH? The 'historical' correter form is that given in the Sil77, but that could very well be an editorial change by Christopher Tolkien. The source for these texts seems to be the Grey Annals in which we find the same text as in CoH. So the failure is one JRR Tolkien made himself which means for us that we would not neccessarly correct it.
Respectfully Findegil |
05-18-2009, 12:45 PM | #60 |
Late Istar
Join Date: Mar 2001
Posts: 2,224
|
In an effort to salvage some of the momentum we had a few weeks ago - I think we are more or less agreed on everything in this section, correct?
|
05-18-2009, 07:42 PM | #61 |
Haunting Spirit
Join Date: Feb 2009
Location: The Halls of Mandos
Posts: 86
|
I believe so. I'll look over it again just in case I missed something.
|
05-19-2009, 12:41 AM | #62 |
King's Writer
Join Date: Jul 2002
Posts: 1,717
|
Does that mean that the rearangement form posting 57 should be incooperated in the final text?
Since we alraedy agreed on the changes in section 3 of the Narn it seems we are done with it. So what is next? Aiwendil you proposed that we should read through all we have made so fare, but that does not creat any momentum here. I would like to procced again as we did before with a small jump back. I have a first draft for the chapter The Ruin of Beleriand. It would nicely round up the story we have worked on so fare, which tells then the long defied of the Exiles. Since from the Dagor Bargolach the single story are interconeted and woven together in the timimg it also would be good to have our editing of the Narn and the Lay of Leithian 'fresh' in memory for the editing of that particular chapter. If you agree to it I would post my draft in the members only forum and would work out a reduced version for the public forum with some comments as soon as possible. Respectfully Findegil |
05-19-2009, 08:51 AM | #63 |
Wight
Join Date: Jan 2009
Posts: 246
|
hello again fellows
I've been in a few holidays, and I'm back again. With the new chapter I hope to help from the beginning. Today I have received Arda Reconstructed (and Sigurd and Gudrun) and when I can, I'll start to read it.
Greetings. |
05-19-2009, 12:52 PM | #64 | |
Late Istar
Join Date: Mar 2001
Posts: 2,224
|
Quote:
I would still like to go over the completed chapters again sometime relatively soon, as I've found a number of corrections that I think should be made; however, it may indeed be a better idea to get 'The Ruin of Beleriand' done first. So I propose that we go ahead with that, as Findegil suggests, and then return to the completed chapters. |
|
05-19-2009, 01:08 PM | #65 | ||||||||||||||||
Haunting Spirit
Join Date: Feb 2009
Location: The Halls of Mandos
Posts: 86
|
I found a few lines I think need fixing:
For: Quote:
Quote:
For: Quote:
Quote:
And for: Quote:
Quote:
For: Quote:
Quote:
For: Quote:
Quote:
And for: Quote:
Quote:
For: Quote:
Quote:
And, finally (for now), for NA-SL-12: Quote:
Quote:
Last edited by Aran e-Godhellim; 05-19-2009 at 02:22 PM. |
||||||||||||||||
05-19-2009, 02:52 PM | #66 | |||
Late Istar
Join Date: Mar 2001
Posts: 2,224
|
Aran - two of the lines you mention were already altered from what you cite (I know it's not easy to keep track of the latest version of every change).
For NA-RG-21, we had: Quote:
Quote:
On your other proposals: NA-RG-17: I take it the reason for the suggestion is to make 'fierce' clearly the stronger syllable in the first half-line. That's probably wise, but I think perhaps it can be done more conservatively with: Quote:
NA-SL-04: I'm glad you caught this; there's no alliteration in this line! However, I don't know if 'Noldorim' should be used here, since in the later conception the only homes in the area that the Orcs are likely to have plundered belong to woodmen and perhaps some Sindar. I don't have a solution at the moment, but I'll give this line some thought. NA-RG-18: I think your line is an improvement. NA-RG-07: Another good catch, since we inadvertantly placed alliterated both stresses of the second half-line. I think your line is good. NA-RG-57: The question is: can Gwindor really be called Turin's 'friend' at this point? Turin has been mad and witless on the whole journey so far, and he hasn't even asked Gwindor who he is yet. On the other hand, Gwindor could perhaps be called his friend because he has guided and helped Turin during the latter's madness. NA-SL-12: Your line is an improvement. |
|||
05-19-2009, 08:13 PM | #67 | ||||
Haunting Spirit
Join Date: Feb 2009
Location: The Halls of Mandos
Posts: 86
|
Quote:
Quote:
Quote:
Quote:
|
||||
05-20-2009, 12:45 AM | #68 |
King's Writer
Join Date: Jul 2002
Posts: 1,717
|
Since you ask for a third person to interfer, here are my two pence:
NA-RG-21: I would go with Aiwendils line. for one it is the smaller change and it avoids the 'Guilinion' which is surely valid, but which we never used before. NA-RG-17: Conservativisem rules for me here so it is Aiwendils line. NA-SL-04: I looked into it as well when you brought up the problem. Aiwendil is surely right that we can not say that the molestade poeple were Noldor. The candidates are Poeple of Haleth folk from Brethil, Woodmen south of Taeglin and remanants of Marachs folk from south of Ered Wethrin plus probably a view wandering Sindarin-Elves and fare reaching Scouts of Nargothrond. I have no solution at hand. The line is not easily removed either since it is needed for the whole part about the Orks ransacking. NA-RG-57: Even so Gwindor is discribed very good by being 'faithfull', I think he can be called a friend by the virture of guardinf Túrin up to tht point. Respectfully Findegil |
05-20-2009, 08:07 AM | #69 | ||
Haunting Spirit
Join Date: Feb 2009
Location: The Halls of Mandos
Posts: 86
|
Quote:
Edit: For NA-SL-04, this is the best I've come up with, though it's not conservative at all, sadly: Quote:
Last edited by Aran e-Godhellim; 05-20-2009 at 01:35 PM. |
||
05-22-2009, 07:57 PM | #70 |
Haunting Spirit
Join Date: Feb 2009
Location: The Halls of Mandos
Posts: 86
|
Hey, guys, I'm trying to make an updated version of the Narn in alliterative verse using the 2nd Narn in Lays of Beleriand as a base, and I was wondering if you'd help criticize my updated/added verses. If you will, should I make a separate thread, or just add them to the discussion here, since this has already become really verse-oriented?
|
05-23-2009, 08:08 AM | #71 | |
King's Writer
Join Date: Jul 2002
Posts: 1,717
|
NA-RG-57: I simply meant that I agree to the change you suggested.
NA-SL-04: I think that is too specific. Posted by Aran e-Godhellim Quote:
Respectfully Findegil |
|
05-23-2009, 08:34 AM | #72 |
Haunting Spirit
Join Date: Feb 2009
Location: The Halls of Mandos
Posts: 86
|
|
05-25-2009, 04:58 PM | #73 | ||
Late Istar
Join Date: Mar 2001
Posts: 2,224
|
NA-SL-04 is proving quite tricky. I thought of:
Quote:
Another possibility is: Quote:
|
||
05-26-2009, 10:08 AM | #74 | |
Haunting Spirit
Join Date: Feb 2009
Location: The Halls of Mandos
Posts: 86
|
Hey! How about:
Quote:
|
|
05-26-2009, 12:14 PM | #75 | |
Late Istar
Join Date: Mar 2001
Posts: 2,224
|
The only problem is that, if I recall correctly, Tolkien's alliteration treats 'sc'/'sk' as distinct from 's' or soft 'c' by itself.
How about: Quote:
|
|
05-26-2009, 01:33 PM | #76 | |
King's Writer
Join Date: Jul 2002
Posts: 1,717
|
For me the best found so far is:
Quote:
Respectfully Findegil |
|
05-26-2009, 04:35 PM | #77 |
Haunting Spirit
Join Date: Feb 2009
Location: The Halls of Mandos
Posts: 86
|
|
05-27-2009, 09:50 PM | #78 | |
Late Istar
Join Date: Mar 2001
Posts: 2,224
|
Quote:
|
|
05-28-2009, 01:44 AM | #79 |
King's Writer
Join Date: Jul 2002
Posts: 1,717
|
If that is okay for both of you, we will take it.
Respectfully Findegil |
01-19-2011, 11:55 AM | #80 | ||||
King's Writer
Join Date: Jul 2002
Posts: 1,717
|
To the same effect as in the other part of the Narn I would like to reoppen a dsicussion about NA-EX-57.1:
Quote:
Findegil: Quote:
Quote:
Quote:
Respectfuly Findegil |
||||
|
|