Gandalf, Moria, and Arrest

[Belegorn]

Originally Posted by Moonraker

I get the feeling in the Hobbit Tolkein doesn't bill Gandalf as a Maiar, only a wizard, who could indeed be harmed by ordinary weapons.

You just used The Hobbit as part of your argument that the orcs had a better chance of beating Gandalf. Since we are both using this source, there is no need for you to dismiss it now, especially as it has been used in your arguments.

Originally Posted by Moonraker

In the Hobbit, Tolkein suggests Gandalf would have died after leaping off his pine tree and into the crowd of orcs and their spears.

[Moonraker]

Originally Posted by Belegorn

You just used The Hobbit as part of your argument that the orcs had a better chance of beating Gandalf. Since we are both using this source, there is no need for you to dismiss it now, especially as it has been used in your arguments.

I actually think this was just an inconsistency with the true nature of Gandalf as a Maiar from the Hobbit to the Lord of the Rings. I don't believe anything but a Maiar could have killed Gandalf the Grey, and a powerful one at that.

[Corsair_Caruso]

Originally Posted by Moonraker

I actually think this was just an inconsistency with the true nature of Gandalf from the Hobbit to the Lord of the Rings. I don't believe anything but a Maiar could have killed Gandalf the Grey, and a powerful one at that.

I disagree.

I think it is important to note the difference between the eternal and immortally wise Olorin the Maia (Maiar is plural, Maia singular) and Gandalf the Wizard/Istar. Tolkien states in Unfinished Tales that the bodies of the Istari are real bodies, not just physical forms that the Maiar and Valar habitually wore to interact with the Children of Iluvatar.

"For with the consent of Eru they sent members of their own high order, but clad in bodies as of Men, real and not feigned, but subject to the fears and pains and weariness of earth, able to hunger and thirst and be slain..."

[...]

... the Istari, being clad in bodies of Middle-earth, might even as Men and Elves fall away from their purposes, and do evil, forgetting the good in the search for power to effect it. [...] For it is said indeed that being embodied the Istari had need to learn much anew by slow experience, and though they knew whence they came the memory of the Blessed Realm was to them a vision from afar off, for which (so long as they remained true to their mission) they yearned exceedingly. Thus by enduring of free will the pangs of exile and the deceits of Sauron the might redress the evils of that time." (Unfinished Tales: The Istari)

Let's look at these points. The bodies of the Istari could hunger, thirst, be slain, they forgot much of their wisdom and knowledge they had in their lives as Maiar in Valinor, and beforehand, and they could even fall into mortal sin from ignorance, fear, lust for power, etc... These were real bodies, that their incorruptible ëalar forms inhabited in a fashion similar to the fëar of the Mirröanwi inhabit their hröar. I'm fully of the opinion that Gandalf could have been slain by the wolves, or the Orks, or Gandalf could even have starved to death in the dungeons of Dol Guldur or died of exposure or thirst in his travels in Middle-earth, had he not taken care. Was he hardier than he looked? Definitely. He could probably survive being deprived of food or water longer than a man of his apparent age, perhaps even better than most Men, maybe even as well as Elves. But could he starve to death or die of dehydration? I think so. Could a Warg have ripped his throat out and would he have bled to death? I'm sure. It didn't happen, because Gandalf had the skills and power to prevent it, but it could have happened.

The difference between Olorin and Gandalf is pretty big, in my opinion. Gandalf, being embodied in a physical body that was his own and not just a fancy meat-suit he fabricated for himself, was subject to hormones and aching joints and adrenaline and being cranky because he was cold or hungry. He could forget spells and get frustrated and irritable because of it. Olorin was not subject to these same problems. Gandalf had much stricter limits on his authority and power than Olorin did, and Gandalf was much more easily slain than Olorin was. The two identities are distinct, though obviously intimately connected.

[Moonraker]

Originally Posted by Corsair_Caruso

I disagree.

I think it is important to note the difference between the eternal and immortally wise Olorin the Maia (Maiar is plural, Maia singular) and Gandalf the Wizard/Istar. Tolkien states in Unfinished Tales that the bodies of the Istari are real bodies, not just physical forms that the Maiar and Valar habitually wore to interact with the Children of Iluvatar.



Let's look at these points. The bodies of the Istari could hunger, thirst, be slain, they forgot much of their wisdom and knowledge they had in their lives as Maiar in Valinor, and beforehand, and they could even fall into mortal sin from ignorance, fear, lust for power, etc... These were real bodies, that their incorruptible ëalar forms inhabited in a fashion similar to the fëar of the Mirröanwi inhabit their hröar. I'm fully of the opinion that Gandalf could have been slain by the wolves, or the Orks, or Gandalf could even have starved to death in the dungeons of Dol Guldur or died of exposure or thirst in his travels in Middle-earth, had he not taken care. Was he hardier than he looked? Definitely. He could probably survive being deprived of food or water longer than a man of his apparent age, perhaps even better than most Men, maybe even as well as Elves. But could he starve to death or die of dehydration? I think so. Could a Warg have ripped his throat out and would he have bled to death? I'm sure. It didn't happen, because Gandalf had the skills and power to prevent it, but it could have happened.

The difference between Olorin and Gandalf is pretty big, in my opinion. Gandalf, being embodied in a physical body that was his own and not just a fancy meat-suit he fabricated for himself, was subject to hormones and aching joints and adrenaline and being cranky because he was cold or hungry. He could forget spells and get frustrated and irritable because of it. Olorin was not subject to these same problems. Gandalf had much stricter limits on his authority and power than Olorin did, and Gandalf was much more easily slain than Olorin was. The two identities are distinct, though obviously intimately connected.

Gandalf the White does say in The White Rider that ordinary weapons could not hurt him.

[Belegorn]

Originally Posted by Moonraker

I actually think this was just an inconsistency with the true nature of Gandalf as a Maiar from the Hobbit to the Lord of the Rings. I don't believe anything but a Maiar could have killed Gandalf the Grey, and a powerful one at that.

I have to disagree. Sauron, while bearing the One Ring was defeated by Gil-galad and Elendil the Tall. An Elf and a Dúnadan. Hardly Maiar themselves.

Originally Posted by Silmarillion; Of the Rings of Power and the Third Age

Sauron himself came forth: and he wrestled with Gil-galad and Elendil, and they both were slain, and the sword of Elendil broke under him as he fell. But Sauron also was thrown down

Originally Posted by FotR; The Council of Elrond

I beheld the last combat on the slopes of Orodruin, where Gil-galad and Elendil fell, and Narsil broke beneath him; but Sauron himself was overthrown, and Isildur cut the Ring from his hand

Originally Posted by Letter #131

Gilgalad and Elendil are slain in the act of slaying Sauron.

These are some of the references to Sauron dueling with an Elf and Dúnadan and both parties killing each other, like what happened with Gandalf and the Balrog. I'd say it's possible that Gandalf could be killed with weapons these guys possessed.

[Moonraker]

Originally Posted by Belegorn

I have to disagree. Sauron, while bearing the One Ring was defeated by Gil-galad and Elendil the Tall. An Elf and a Dúnadan. Hardly Maiar themselves.


These are some of the references to Sauron dueling with an Elf and Dúnadan and both parties killing each other, like what happened with Gandalf and the Balrog. I'd say it's possible that Gandalf could be killed with weapons these guys possessed.

Sauron was defeated, but not killed outright.

Possibly very powerful weapons could have harmed Gandalf the Grey, not sure about killing him outright though. Not orc spears however, even if this is stated in the Hobbit.

[Smug the Fabulous]

Proof of the physical fallibility of the Istari: Saruman. He was a powerful wizard and leader of the Istari, yet he was killed simply by having his throat slit.

[Moonraker]

Originally Posted by Smug the Fabulous

Proof of the physical fallibility of the Istari: Saruman. He was a powerful wizard and leader of the Istari, yet he was killed simply by having his throat slit.

That after being denounced from the Istari by Gandalf the White. The breaking of Saruman's staff was symbolic of loss of all Maiar power, save his commanding voice.