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06-26-2015, 06:58 PM | #1 |
Shade of Carn Dûm
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Gandalf’s Possible Inaccuracy in the chapter “The Shadow of the Past”
In the thread “The Effect of the Great Ring”, I posted in part in response to a remark by Mithadan on errors in The Lord of the Rings. See the pertinent part of my post here:
The 50th anniversary edition of The Lord of the Rings, also published in paperback, contains on pages xvi to xvii a “Note on the 50ᵗʰ Anniversary Edition” by Wayne G. Hammond and Christina Scull on their fixing of various errors in the text. Most of the changes are minor typographical corrections(?). They have been very conservative in their editing and every change has been approved by Christopher Tolkien. They note on page xvii: Most of the demonstrable errors noted by Christopher Tolkien in The History of Middle-earth also have been corrected, such as the distance from the Brandywine Bridge to the Ferry (ten miles rather than twenty) and the number of Merry’s ponies (five rather than six). But those inconsistencies of content, such as Gimli’s famous (and erroneous) statement in Book III, Chapter 7, ‘Till now I have hewn naught but wood since I have left Moria’, which would require rewriting to emend rather than simple correction, remain unchanged. All the emendations are listed with short explanations in “Changes to the Editions of 2004–5” published on pages 783–912 of Hammond and Scull’s The Lord of the Rings: A Reader’s Companion. There are other contradictions not fixed as requiring too much rewriting. For example, in the chapter “The Shadow of the Past” Tolkien has Gandalf explain: A Ring of Power looks after itself, Frodo. It may slip off treacherously, but its keeper never abandons it. At most he plays with the idea of handing it on to someone else’s care – and that only at an early stage, when it first begins to grip. But as far as I know Bilbo alone in history has ever gone beyond playing, and really done it. He needed all my help, too. Yet we later learn that at that time Gandalf has been secretly bearing a Ring of Power for close to two thousand years, a Ring given him freely by Círdan its keeper. Either Tolkien intends Gandalf to be uniquely lying, has accidentally typed “A Ring of Power” instead of something like “One of Sauron’s Rings”, intends the reader to understand that Gandalf has made a slip of the tongue, or perhaps had not yet invented the idea that Gandalf was secretly bearing an Elvish Ring of Power freely given to him by Círdan its keeper. I can bring up other contradictions within The Lord of the Rings and still more in The Hobbit and between The Lord of the Rings and the published Silmarillion if you wish.There was a large response to this post some positive and some negative. I was effectively accused of hijacking the thread, which was not my intent but was what mostly happened. Since many Barrow-downers seemingly did and do wish to discuss this subject, it seemed to me the best thing was to open a separate thread on this subject, so that hopefully the original subject-matter of “The Effect of the Great Ring” may be continued without being affected by this sub-discussion. Hammond and Scull’s original note appears on page 87 of the The Lord of the Rings: A Reader’s Companion: 55 (I:64). its keeper never abandons it. At most he plays with the idea of handing it on to someone else’s care – and that only at an early stage, when it first begins to grip. But as far as I know Bilbo alone in history has ever gone beyond playing and really done it. – This is true of the One Ring, but not of all Rings of Power, of which Gandalf seems to be speaking generally. Celebrimbor gave away the Three Rings. Círdan gave his Ring to Gandalf, Gil-galad (when dying) gave his to Elrond, and Thrór gave his Ring to Thráin.To follow the arguments that arose from this, read most of #15 to #32 in the thread: “The Effect of the Great Ring”. Note that my own opinions have somewhat changed over the course of this discussion but I still see this as a contradiction, along with Hammond and Scull, if the words which Tolkien gives to Gandalf are taken fully literally. If we assume that Frodo is not supposed have been able to recall in exact detail what Gandalf said, we might imagine Gandalf’s words as something like: “A Ring of Power held by a mortal looks after itself, Frodo” instead of “A Ring of Power looks after itself, Frodo.” I wish I had thought earlier of the possibility of starting a new thread, Hopefully this will allow “The Effect of the Great Ring” to continue without discussing Gandalf’s Possible Inaccuracy in the chapter “The Shadow of the Past”. Last edited by jallanite; 06-26-2015 at 07:14 PM. |
06-26-2015, 07:21 PM | #2 |
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I'm still of the mind that the Three are not ultimately comparable in most ways with Rings of Power as Gandalf meant in the context of his conversation with Frodo.
There, Gandalf was trying to explain how the (One) Ring came to Bilbo, then to Frodo. Certainly the Nine and the Seven, laden as they were with Sauron's power, would have done his will. That could hardly have been accomplished if their bearers had been able to throw them away or give them to another when they chose. The Three were, of course, not actually made by Sauron, and he never touched them. Their powers were different from the rings he had more of a hand in making, and I really don't see why there need be any contradiction where the Three are concerned.
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06-27-2015, 10:57 AM | #3 |
Shade of Carn Dûm
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I don't know. This seems it will need more looking into. What is known is that all the "Rings of Power" were forged based on some sort of design contrived by Sauron and that Sauron himself had a hand in the forging of the One and all the others, except the Three which Celebrimbor himself made. Even though Sauron had no hand in the forging of the Three it still had his imprint in design. I think therefore all of the other Rings, like the One, would have the same or similar effects on mortals, excluding the Dwarves. The Three, however, not so much but they were linked to the One based on their design so that they could all in some manner control the bearers through Sauron wielding the One. It may appear that Gandalf is contradicting himself, but he may not be, or he may be. As of now I do not think so. I think he is speaking in truth as concerning the One and all the "Rings of Power" in which Sauron had a direct hand in the making. Again with the Dwarves the design failed to implement to some degree.
"And all those rings that he governed he perverted, the more easily since he had a part in their making, and they were accursed, and they betrayed in the end all those that used them. The Dwarves indeed proved tough and hard to tame; they ill endure the domination of others, and the thoughts of their hearts are hard to fathom, nor can they be turned to shadows." [Silmarillion; Of the Rings of Power and the third Age] Thus I disagree with the Note of Hammand and Scull.
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06-27-2015, 01:03 PM | #4 | |
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I think really that the original supposition is correct: dormitat Homerus. Ch 2 was written long before Tolkien had considered where the story was going generally, much less in detai. I seriously doubt that at the time he had thought up (a) Thror passing his ring to Thrain, which appeared first in 'The Quest of Erebor' ca. 1954, or (b) Gandalf as a ringbearer, first realized on paper during the writing of the last chapter, and how he got it from Cirdan written even later in 'Of the Rings of Power and the Third Age.' Of course, we can ret-con to our taste, and I think Belegorn's post covers it pretty well.
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06-27-2015, 04:48 PM | #5 |
Shade of Carn Dûm
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Yes, technically, but Tolkien generally does not stress this as he does with Men and Hobbits. For example Tolkien has Gandalf say, “Nine he gave to mortal Men”, but earlier he says, “Seven the Dwarf-kings possessed”, not “Seven the mortal Dwarf-kings possessed” or “Seven the mortal Dwarves possessed”.
Last edited by jallanite; 06-27-2015 at 05:13 PM. |
06-29-2015, 08:06 PM | #6 |
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Tolkien writes on page 59:
Yes, alas! through him [Gollum] the Enemy has learned that the One has been found again. He knows where Isildur fell. He knows where Gollum found this ring. He knows that it is a Great Ring, for it gave long life.This implies that only the “Great Rings” give long life to a mortal, whether Man or Hobbit, not one of the lesser rings or some other ring-shaped charm. Earlier, on page 47, Gandalf refers to “the Great Rings, the Rings of Power”, as though they are synonyms for the same things. Now we are told that they alone give “long life”, for Gandalf makes the gift of “long life” evident proof that the Ring possessed by Sauron is one of the “Great Rings.” But could Gollum’s Ring be one of the other nineteen “Great Rings” which also give long life? Gandalf indicates not. Tolkien makes Gandalf continue immediately following on the same page: He [Sauron] knows that it is not one of the Three, for they have never been lost, and they endure no evil.Also the Three, according the Waldman letter, “did not confer invisibility”. But Tolkien is not discussing such matters, only the ability of all the Great Rings and only the Great Rings to give long life. Gandalf is made to continue: He [Sauron] knows that it is not one of the Seven, or the Nine. for they are accounted for.Gandalf has earlier explained on page 51: Seven the Dwarf-kings possessed, but three he [Sauron] has recovered, and the others the dragons have consumed. Nine he gave to Mortal Men, proud and great, and so ensnared them.So Gandalf now makes clear: He [Sauron] knows that it [the Ring won from Gollum by Bilbo] is the One.Yet Gandalf on page 55 declares of “A Ring of Power”, which is elsewhere in this chapter a synonym for “Great Ring”, has never in all history been freely given up by its keeper save when Bilbo gave up the Ring of Power he possessed to Frodo. Hammond and Scull state: This is true of the One Ring, but not of all Rings of Power, of which Gandalf seems to be speaking generally. Celebrimbor gave away the Three Rings. Círdan gave his Ring to Gandalf, Gil-galad (when dying) gave his to Elrond, and Thrór gave his Ring to Thráin.I have restated the problem more clearly as I see it. Zigûr’s attempted answer seems to me to depend on Gandalf using “Rings of Power” to refer only to Sauronic rings, which I don’t see on further study. And he does not account for Thrór giving up his Ring to Thráin. See #21 in the thread “The Effect of the Great Ring”. Findegil answer in the thread “The Effect of the Great Ring” seems to me to merely accept that Gandalf is lying, but for good reasons. This works, but seems to go against Gandalf’s truthfulness elsewhere. See #30 in the thread “The Effect of the Great Ring”. Inziladun’s explanation does not fit with Gandalf’s own explanation of the powers of the Rings. Morthoron’s attempt at explanation I do not understand at all. He asks: So why would Gandalf confuse Frodo with provisos, quid pro quos, caveat emptors and various other Latin phrases that may or may not have anything to do with what Gandalf was talking about and what he needed to impress upon Frodo so that the Hobbit could achieve his mission?Gandalf doesn’t do this and no-one, certainly not me, thinks he should. My own answer would be blamed by me for changing the text which many would call cheating. Very weak. Last edited by jallanite; 07-06-2015 at 01:11 PM. |
06-30-2015, 04:03 AM | #7 | |
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Also I just argued that "Rings of Power" seems to be a vague term with no rigid definition, which seems to refer to different groupings of Rings from usage to usage. I wasn't trying to give a hard and fast answer and I don't think I can.
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06-30-2015, 09:44 AM | #8 | ||
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It may slip off treacherously, but its keeper never abandons it. At most he plays with the idea of handing it on to someone else’s care – and that only at an early stage, when it first begins to grip. But as far as I know Bilbo alone in history has ever gone beyond playing, and really done it. He needed all my help, too.Replace “keeper” with “mortal keeper”. But then someone will point out that Dwarves are mortal too. For me the problem is the mainly the phrase “alone in history” which suggests any kind of being. Quote:
But if I say “Ring of Power” with no context, I would be understood to mean any one of the 20 Great Rings, not only a Sauronic Great Ring. So when Gandalf says “A Ring of Power looks after itself, Frodo”, he should be understood to mean any of the Rings of Power, not specifically a Sauronic Great Ring. I understood you were attempting to show that Ring of Power was possibly comparable to the word corn, which has different primary meanings in U.S. English and British English, that Gandalf might mean Sauronic Ring primarily by Ring of Power, at least on occasion. But my examination of the evidence does not bear this out. Possibly you might present evidence that I had not considered. Note I do not think it valid to interpret the crux passage as evidence. One could more legitimately interpret the crux passage as a slip of the tongue. I am not challenging you or anyone to find a solution. I don’t believe there is one. You at least have made an attempt. |
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06-30-2015, 04:50 PM | #9 | |
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Also, he may not have been thinking of Thrór giving his ring to Thráin during that conversation. Admittedly, the weak point of that argument is it would be hard for Gandalf to not be thinking of his own possession of a ring during that conversation.
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05-19-2016, 09:20 AM | #10 |
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I don't see a huge problem there:
1. Gandalf isn't exactly an expert on Ringlore. 2. Círdan and Gil-galad giving away the Three isn't really a problem because the Three were most certainly not used by Galadriel, Gil-galad, Elrond, or Círdan during the Second Age. Thus they wouldn't have had any power over them. 3. Círdan may not have used Narya at all even during the Third Age - or else he might have had problems parting with it. But then, the impression we get is that Narya's main purpose was effecting its wearer's and other people psyches (perhaps originally conceived to fight the inevitable melancholy that would trouble the Eldar over the years?). Círdan most likely had no use of an artifact like that in Lindon where the Eldar usually only came when they were ready to leave Middle-earth anyway. Not to mention that he might have been smart enough to not use the ring even after Sauron had been seemingly defeated. 4. The Seven clearly didn't really work on the Dwarves. They apparently couldn't even prolong their lives or transform them into wraiths. Now, we know that Thrór passed his ring on the Thráin but Thráin did not pass it on to Thorin. Could be that Thrór was stronger than Thráin or that Thrór felt death approaching already or knew that going to Moria with one of the Seven in his possession was too great a risk. In any case, Durin's line must have passed on its ring quite a few times during the ages, and we have no reason to believe that the kings always took the ring from the corpses of their predecessors. |
05-19-2016, 01:31 PM | #11 |
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Threadomancy here.
But since it's back from Mandos, I would approach this, as I tend to do, externally: the chapter "The Shadow of the Past" (originally "Ancient History") was one of the earliest written, and although subsequently emended Tolkien wasn't doing so with a fine-tooth comb; moreover, much of the history of the Great Rings (especially the Three) didn't arise until the Appendices, written well after the main narrative and, although Tolkien did attempt some revisions to square things up, this was done in a tearing hurry during the rush to publication 1954-55. Besides, both Tolkien and his loremaster alter egos (Gandalf, Elrond and Faramir) tend to speak in sweeping generalities which aren't necessarily precise to three decimal places. Is Treebeard or Bombadil the "oldest living thing?" If Gandalf thought it important, he could have added a verbal footnote with all the fine print on Great Ring ownership. "Ring use may be habit-forming. Gwaith-i-Mirdain Ltd disclaim all liability for damages direct or indirect associated with Ringbearing. All Rings non-transferable (except the Three Rings and/or if the bearer is an Elf, or in accordance with Subparagraph 17(g)(1) 'Dwarf-Lords and their Heirs.' Batteries not included."
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The entire plot of The Lord of the Rings could be said to turn on what Sauron didn’t know, and when he didn’t know it. Last edited by William Cloud Hicklin; 08-13-2016 at 11:45 AM. |
06-07-2016, 08:32 AM | #12 | |
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I believe this will do as an in-story explanation, if one is needed (though I am also inclined to agree it's really an oversight on the part of Tolkien).
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06-07-2016, 10:23 PM | #13 | ||
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For my two bits on this – FWIW, that is –
I’m inclined to agree with a number of points:
Finally, Frodo says, “…I must keep the Ring and guard it, at least for the present, whatever it may do to me.” This is exactly what Gandalf wants! And the wizard replies, “Whatever it may do, it will be slow, slow to evil, if you keep it with that purpose.” So he didn’t give Frodo all the details. All the better. Ever read a contract? An End User License Agreement? “The party of the first will accede to the party of the second, except at the aforementioned times and in those places enumerated in Addendum C-2…” Frodo didn’t need the details. He needed to know that he was, in effect, living with the nuclear football hanging around his neck, and it had a (fortunately slightly defective) homing device. |
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06-08-2016, 12:10 AM | #14 | |
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Good thoughts.
I find this assertion of Hammond and Scull to be curious, however: Quote:
In my head I generally imagined that Elrond left Vilya behind in Imladris when he accompanied Gil-galad to Mordor, and I similarly imagined that Círdan did the same with Narya. It seems like bringing any of the Three to Mordor, even (of course) unworn, would have been an incredibly stupid thing to do.
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06-08-2016, 09:19 AM | #15 | |
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In fact, the assumption that Gil-galad (or Elrond, Círdan, and Galadriel - if she was with the army) would have taken any of the Three into Mordor during the war against Sauron doesn't make any sense. If they had lost the war or been captured Sauron could have gained possession of the Rings, not to mention that it is by no means certain that Sauron while wearing the One could not have detected or felt the presence of the Three this close by. Perhaps he might even have been able to read the minds of the guardians of the Three while they had them in their pockets. After all, the One Ring also has an effect on Frodo even before he puts it on his finger for the first time (it slows his aging process just as it did with Bilbo before). Granted, the Three weren't made by Sauron, but they were still under the dominion of the One. One assumes Gil-galad, Galadriel, Círdan, and Elrond hid the Three somewhere in their abodes and never took them out until Sauron was overthrown and the One taken from him. And even then it might have taken quite some time until Elrond and Galadriel finally gave into temptation and actually tested what they could achieve with Nenya and Vilya. |
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06-08-2016, 09:44 AM | #16 |
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This begs the question of why did they make so many and who were the original intended recipients.
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06-08-2016, 09:44 AM | #17 |
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The H&S reference is probably (I'm guessing) based on Appendix B:
"Gil-galad before he died gave his ring to Elrond; Cirdan later surrendered his to Mithrandir." The Tale of Years, The Third Age Granted I would agree that "before he died" doesn't necessarily mean when dying, but in any case, as far as my canon goes, however one interprets this, it is author published description versus posthumously published description in Unfinished Tales. Can't think of anything else at the moment, although from the Council of Elrond we know Elrond could have been present at Gil-galad's death (near enough). Anyway, I'm just wondering too |
06-08-2016, 09:53 AM | #18 | |
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In any event, I don't believe we ever hear of Gil-galad or Elendil having time to say or do anything as they died; I always got the impression both were killed very quickly, and we know that Gil-galad was burnt alive (I always imagine something like the way Harry "accidentally" kills Quirrel in Philosopher's Stone) by the hand of Sauron, so if he made any noise, he was probably screaming Thus I personally see Vilya being left at Imladris, and Narya at Mithlond; given that they discussed similar ideas at the Council of Elrond we might imagine there being something like a backup plan, so that those who stayed behind would take the Rings over the Sea in the event that the Alliance lost the war. As an aside, it strikes me as potentially (but not necessarily) inconsistent that Sauron's spirit was capable of carrying off the One during the drowning of Númenor, but could not do so from Mordor at the end of the Second Age. Why wasn't Isildur grabbing at it out of the air as it slipped off Sauron's severed finger and floated away into the East? Presumably Sauron could no longer achieve feats like this, having expended so much power in creating another body for himself after the last one was drowned.
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06-08-2016, 10:09 AM | #19 | |
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06-08-2016, 10:28 AM | #20 | |
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At Númenor, Sauron's physical form was unexpectedly destroyed by the force of the waters inundating the island. His fea was completely intact. After fighting off Elendil and Gil-galad, and robbed of the Ring by Isildur, his hold not only on his corporeal body but also his very spirit was sudden;y weakened. The shock alone could have rendered him incapable of doing anything to regain the Ring.
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06-08-2016, 11:28 AM | #21 | |
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There are two important reasons why Sauron might have deliberately chosen to keep the One hidden in Barad-dur, protected by the Nazgûl and his armies (who might not have known that the Ring was back there): 1. He wanted to appear humble and defeated in the eyes of Ar-Pharazôn. The One, as a Ring of Power, enhanced his power both in appearance (Sauron would appear more powerful etc. than he might actually be, just as Galadriel did when Nenya's light concentrated on her) and in actuality (however that worked exactly). But Sauron did not want to appear terrible and powerful, he wanted to win the trust of the King and Númenor and corrupt and ruin him. 2. He might have feared that the Númenóreans would actually take the Ring from him and use it against him. His armies were terrified by the might and splendor of Ar-Pharazôn, after all, and he was at the peak of his power and wearing the Ring at that time. One can but wonder what Pharazôn could have done or become had he taken the Ring from Sauron. And he could have done that, there is no doubt about that. Keep in mind that Sauron never feared that anybody would destroy the Ring, but it is never stated that he never feared to lose the Ring to a superior enemy and thus be usurped and replaced by a new Dark Lord who takes everything from him. He certainly might have feared that Ar-Pharazôn would attempt to do that. Sauron leaving the instrument and symbol of his power and rule over Middle-earth - his crown if you will - back at Barad-dûr would also symbolize that he only temporarily abandoned his seat. He would come back eventually as he did. And the Nazgûl most certainly were completely under his thumb by then. They could not have taken the One for themselves in any case, and they would have guarded it against any mortal lieutenant of Sauron's who might have entertained such notions (had any such known that Sauron had left the Ring behind). We also have to keep in mind that Númenóreans must have known about the existence of the Rings of Power. Three Nazgûl were Númenóreans after all, and if some of them were of the line of Elros (which is not unlikely in my opinion) then they would have known even more about them. There is a letter (or a draft of a letter) in which Tolkien talks about Sauron's spirit bringing the One back from the abyss that took Númenor but you can see while reading that letter that he begins to wonder how that would have worked. My guess is the lines in The Akallabêth and Of the Rings of Power talking about him taking the One up again might have been inspired by such ideas. Of course, if you want to insist that Sauron must have taken the Ring to Númenor then one could speculate that Sauron's body being destroyed by some natural disaster isn't *metaphysically* or *legally* the same as him being overthrown by living enemies (and there is some truth to that). Gil-galad/Elendil and subsequently Isildur had a certain right to the Ring because it was taken from him in combat, and that could indeed explain why Sauron's spirit was unable to snatch the Ring from his own body or out of Isildur's hand. But then, being crushed by Ilúvatar himself (or by the Valar being granted greater power by Ilúvatar) should have had an even more devastating effect on Sauron so ... this is tricky. Anyway, I'm firmly in the camp of those who believe that the Ring never was in Númenor in the first place. |
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06-08-2016, 11:43 AM | #22 | |
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Of course this is the same letter in which Professor Tolkien states that Sauron had the Ring with him in Númenor, so I suppose, if you dismiss that idea, the idea that Pharazôn was ignorant of the Ring can be dismissed as well, but that borders upon dismissing too much in my opinion. In any event the Ring could have been easily hidden when he was taken prisoner, and would have looked like a piece of ordinary jewellery in any event. I don't have a problem with Sauron having the Ring in Númenor but I do find the image of his spirit carrying it off back to Middle-earth with him rather silly.
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06-08-2016, 12:15 PM | #23 | |||
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In any case, the letter is at least partially at odds with spirit Sauron taking up the ring again. Here is the quote from The Akallabêth: Quote:
That's from Of the Rings of Power: Quote:
I really think we can dismiss the letter in those cases. Not to mention that the talk about the Elves being secretive about the Rings isn't very convincing, if you think about it. Not if Sauron truly did give three of the Nine to Númenóreans. The fact that Sauron had magical rings and once given them to various people must have been known. And Sauron wearing some ring in Númenor could easily have triggered the greed of the One. After all, that thing looked very tempting to many people and could be most likely not easily be disguised as just some jewelery. Not to mention that it isn't even clear whether Sauron could wear the Ring and not have this burning hand he had when he fought Gil-galad (or display some other visible feature or great power and might). I mean, the One Ring is one of the most powerful artifacts in those stories and I'd be very irritated if Tolkien himself actually thought anybody else beside Tom Bombadil could treat it like a trinket. And Sauron would have at least play the charade of it being insignificant. |
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06-08-2016, 12:51 PM | #24 |
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I think that perhaps the Nine and the One did have effect on the Númenórean population overall for many hundreds of years. In 1697 Sauron got the Rings of Power for the most part, but by the late 20th to the early 21st Centuries a shadow had fallen on Númenor. I think this was the shadow "in which may be the will of Morgoth was at work that still moved in the world." [Akallabêth] This perhaps started with some stray Númenóreans and a couple may have been given a Ring of Power at this time, working their influence on their bearers and those in their sphere of influence. After his capture I think Sauron put the One to heavy use in Númenor as it was his chief means to dominate others. He continued to stoke the fears perhaps stirred first by early infiltrators with the Nine (not all of the Nine of course) who were among the populace in Númenor. Melkor worship, human sacrifice, and not just of lesser Men, but of their own people, the Faithful, abandonment of any regard for the Valar, the attack on Valinor, et cetera. I believe in his letters Tolkien mentioned that it was not an altogether out there idea that Sauron could carry the Ring back from the destruction of Númenor without his body as he and his kind, as spirits, were involved in the shaping of Arda.
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06-08-2016, 05:43 PM | #25 | |||
Haunting Spirit
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In Letter 211, Tolkien wrote,
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In Letter 199, Tolkien wrote that the Ainur “often took the form and likeness” of Elves and Men, “especially after their appearance.” Quote:
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The original population of Rivendell was made up of survivors of Sauron’s assault upon Eregion in the Second Age: Gil-galad sent an expeditionary force from Lindon under Elrond to bolster Eregion’s defenses until the Númenórean fleet arrived. Sauron’s armies swept into and to the west of Eregion, to block both any further assistance from Gil-galad and any retreat to him from Eregion. Elrond led the survivors to Imladris; the context as I recall it indicated that these were not very numerous. Before the War between Sauron and the Elves, there were two sizable Noldorin polities. The greater and more numerous was Lindon, where there were also a large number of Sindar. The smaller was Eregion, where the Noldor established what we might call a “colony” outside the immediate control of Gil-galad. Depending upon which storyline you follow, its settlement might have been instigated by Galadriel, Celebrimbor, or both acting together. Though nominally under the suzerainty of Gil-galad as Noldorin High King, Eregion was essentially politically independent. After Gil-galad prevented Annatar (Sauron in disguise) from entering Lindon, Celebrimbor and the Mírdain (society of smiths) welcomed him in Eregion. When Galadriel, who was in Eregion, objected to the Mírdain’s welcome of Annatar, she was ostracized and left; she did not return to Lindon, but rather to Lothlórien, a kingdom of Silvan Elves ruled by Sindar. Though it isn’t stated, it is very difficult to resist these conclusions
We aren’t given any indication how many Mírdain there were, but it seems they were rather numerous. Proud and self-willed, it isn’t difficult to see that they would all want Rings of various sorts, and of course these Rings should enable the Elves wielding them to shrug off or even forestall the effects of time, as well as enhance other skills or abilities the smiths found useful or desirable. Celebrimbor made the Three by himself; you may well ask for whom he made them, and why did he make three instead of only one? I cannot answer that, except that it permits Tolkien to tell a great story! You might also argue whether he alone made them, or other smiths assisted. But there is no reason for the proud Smiths of Eregion to craft rings for the use of Mortal Men or Dwarves, and there was no particular reason for them to stop making Great Rings until they bored of the effort. After all, they were Noldor, and it was Art. Useful Art, but Art. Why did they make so many? I don’t know, but I think you might as well as ask a famous painter why he continues to paint: He enjoys it. That’s what he does. Last edited by Alcuin; 06-08-2016 at 11:40 PM. |
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06-08-2016, 06:47 PM | #26 |
Shade of Carn Dûm
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That'd be East. Silvan Elves always under the rule of a Sinda or Noldo!
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06-10-2016, 09:19 AM | #27 |
Regal Dwarven Shade
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I had never given this aspect of the Rings much thought before.
What does this say about the inherent malign nature of the rings that when in the hands of Men and Dwarves they had such pronounced negative impacts, especially in the case of men? Could the prolonging of life granted by the Nine in particular have something to do with the Elvish desire, and power put into the rings, to slow the effects of time? Or were the negative aspects of the rings all rooted in the existence of the One Ring?
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06-10-2016, 10:09 AM | #28 | ||
Ghost Prince of Cardolan
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1. The person who had waged a great war against Eregion 2. The person who had set himself up as the 'King of Men' in Middle-earth, with his chief stronghold in Mordor 3. The person who had given Rings to Men and Dwarves (they might not have even known at the time that anyone other than them had Rings; we don't know the circumstances in which Sauron distributed them. Did he just show up one day or did he do it publicly?) 4. The Lieutenant of Morgoth who had suspiciously disappeared at the end of the First Age. How long might it have taken for people to draw these connections? We as readers operate from the convenient position of reading at the end of the Third Age, when all of these puzzles had been figured out. Quote:
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06-10-2016, 11:51 AM | #29 | |
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Rings = (1) Stay the fading where the spirit eats up the body, & (2) the effects of time in Middle-earth itself.
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06-10-2016, 05:14 PM | #30 | |||||||||||||
Haunting Spirit
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One of the prime features of the One Ring was that it allowed Sauron to “eavesdrop” on the minds of the wearers of the other Great Rings. (I don’t think that was true for the lesser rings, but we never see any of those.) Men were completely overwhelmed by Sauron’s will, so that the Nazgûl could no longer resist it. Returning to Gandalf’s conversation with Frodo, Quote:
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If you think about it, it makes perfectly good sense. How else could Sauron ensnare three Númenórean noblemen (for they were surely commanders in Middle-earth) with Great Rings? Had they known about the Rings, they’d have all suspected a trap when some rich, handsome, brilliant fellow in Middle-earth came bearing gifts, a mysterious salesmen with magic trinkets. As for the One Ring’s arousing passion to seize it in Númenor, I suspect you have not thought through the position. The One Ring belonged to Sauron: it was his, and his alone. Its power of arousing jealously was part of its “programming”. Nor Sam, nor Merry, nor Pippin ever felt any urge to take the Ring from Frodo. Boromir did: but Boromir was useful to the Ring! He would have exposed its whereabouts to Sauron, who’d eventually have found him and relieved him of it – to Sauron’s advantage!; and moreover, Boromir was a much greater person than Frodo. Faramir was tempted, but resisted the temptation in humility and obedience to his position as Heir of the Steward rather than as a King. (If you remember, Frodo and Sam told Faramir that the Heir of Isildur was coming to Minas Tirith.) Aragorn, if he was tempted at all, resisted it, too. But to some people, Frodo actually offered the Ring! He urged it upon Gandalf; he gave it to Bombadil without hesitation; he jumped up in alarm when Elrond revealed that Aragorn was Isildur’s Heir, and though he didn’t offer it outright, expected Aragorn to take it; and he offered it to Galadriel. All of these people were far greater persons in power and ability than Frodo. The Ring itself was looking for a powerful keeper. In the case of Sméagol’s murder of Déagol, perhaps Sméagol was the “greater” of the two; but in any case, he seems the more wicked: he did not hesitate to kill his friend. A strong case can be made that the Dúnedain only found out about the Rings of Power when Sauron attacked the new Kingdom of Gondor at the end of the Second Age, and Elendil forged the Last Alliance with Gil-galad. Only then, I think, did the Númenóreans learn the truth, and even then, not all of it. If Ar-Pharazôn knew nothing of the One Ring, Tar-Minastir did not, either. Elendil had to ask, How it is possible that Sauron was not destroyed in the Ruin of Númenor, Maia though he was? Gil-galad, Elrond, and Círdan told Elendil and Isildur (and eventually Anárion) only in desperation so that their allies could finally understand what they were up against. This brings us to the famous Ring-rhyme. Quote:
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But think you are absolutely correct about the person who had given Rings to Men and Dwarves. For the Dwarves, Sauron probably cozened them first, in disguise (as he done as Annatar) offering them Rings that likely improved skills in their arts, the same skills the Noldor valued: smithying, stonework, and other crafts. Perhaps the fact that there were Seven Rings and Seven Houses of Dwarves, coupled with Celebrimbor’s giving the first of them to Durin, suggested this to Sauron. There do not seem to have been nine houses of Men, but he used the Nine to ensnare them. Some Men worshipped Sauron: they would take Rings from him in his own persona. The three Númenóreans must have met him wearing some other guise. |
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06-11-2016, 02:17 PM | #31 |
Animated Skeleton
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@Zigûr & Alcuin:
I've just rechecked the context of letter #211, and it actually did lead to a revision of LotR on the whole O/A discrepancy that is discussed earlier. Earlier Akallabêth versions do not include the lines about Sauron taking up the Great Ring, so it would make sense to assume Tolkien's thoughts on the whole questions raised there might also have affected his later rewriting of The Akallabêth. After all, that letter was written in 1958. Anyway, in universe Ar-Pharazôn might not have known about the One Ring but once Tolkien had decided that three Nazgûl were going to be powerful Númenóreans it would be very difficult to imagine the Kings of Númenor never getting information about the Rings of Power - or rather that Sauron was giving away such Rings. I don't think Gil-galad and the Elves told Minastir and his people what exactly was going on but they must have known that some old servant of Morgoth's had returned, and so on. And once the Númenóreans had established their permanent colonies further down south they would also have clashed with Sauron occasionally. We don't know where the dwarves and men lived who received the Seven and Nine, so the tale about Sauron giving them away could easily have reached the ears of the Númenóreans. And the effects the Rings had on the three Númenóreans who became Nazgûl must have not escaped the others. Perhaps they didn't know what was going on, perhaps they never found out, but they would eventually have learned that Ring-wraiths existed in Middle-earth, and that should have enabled them to connect the dots. Even if not, the question is whether Sauron would have known and risked losing the Ring to Ar-Pharazôn? I mean, the man could have searched him, could even have forced him to undress and hand him all valuables. Sauron's plan was based on winning the trust of the Númenóreans and he most certainly had to spring to quite a few hoops before he won the trust of the King. And I simply find the idea that he would have taken the Ring with him under such circumstances very unlikely indeed. Especially in light of the quotes from the actual texts. |
06-12-2016, 08:59 AM | #32 | |
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The late rewriting of Ak was chiefly concerned with the Gimilkhad/Pharazon/Miriel affair, an interesting parallel to the creation in the same time frame of the Finwe/Miriel/Indis business (note the repeated name).
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06-15-2016, 03:07 PM | #33 |
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If the existence of the One was enough to render the Rings harmful to the Elves, that would probably be enough to render the other Rings corrupt given the lesser spiritual strength of humans and dwarves.
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06-15-2016, 04:21 PM | #34 | |
Ghost Prince of Cardolan
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"... there he took up again his great Ring in Barad-dur..."
Some have argued that this need not mean Sauron had left the One behind in Middle-earth, citing one definition according to the Oxford English Dictionary... Quote:
Though Sauron had the One in Numenor as well... according to a letter anyway. Last edited by Galin; 06-15-2016 at 04:30 PM. |
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06-15-2016, 04:33 PM | #35 | |
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06-15-2016, 09:40 PM | #36 |
Haunting Spirit
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No doubt the Númenóreans knew who and what kind of creature Sauron was; but it still must have come as quite a shock to them when he reformed a physical body (thanks in part to the Ring) following the ruin of Númenor. They probably thought he was “dead”, banished from the world.
Thinking on this, it’s easy to understand why Gil-galad and the Elves told Elendil and the Dúnedain for the first time about the Rings of Power. The Númenóreans had already encountered the Nazgûl in their wars against Sauron. (Cf. Appendix B for S.A. 2251: “… About this time the Nazgûl … first appear.”) Unaware of the Rings, they did not recognize these creatures for what they were, though they must have understood they were Men ruined in some way by Sauron. But in S.A. 3429, 129 years after the downfall of Númenor, when Sauron attacked, Elendil and his sons must have put some direct questions to Gil-galad and the Eldar: How could Sauron re-embody? the Dúnedain must have wondered. For the first time they received direct answers. Perhaps an incident from the tale of Beren and Lúthien, when Lúthien threatened to have Huan the Hound strip Sauron of his form unless he yielded her Tol Sirion, explains some of his motivation for making the Ring. As long as the Ring existed, Sauron could not be permanently disembodied, nor his power scattered; but of course, once the Ring was destroyed, both of these impediments became permanent. As an aside, I don’t think Ar-Pharazôn ever had any chance of taking the One Ring from Sauron. I don’t think could Ar-Pharazôn even see it – remember that neither Sam nor Frodo could see Galadriel’s ring until Frodo saw Sauron in the Mirror. Sauron’s servants were terrified of the Númenóreans and, despite their servile fear of Sauron, deserted him. Ar-Pharazôn took him hostage back to Númenor: this delighted Sauron: otherwise, he’d never have been able to get there. He had a rather overwhelming personality, and soon cozened Ar-Pharazôn. |
06-15-2016, 10:59 PM | #37 | ||
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There's also the simple fact that between bodies he could not "take up" the Ring in any sense, to wear it or wield it. It's possible that late in his time in Númenor Sauron had had little current use for the Ring (almost as Gandalf tells us Gollum did after long centuries in his cave) and had not actively been "using" it. It's difficult, in my opinion; perhaps he did not bring it with him to Númenor, but it seems to me that he would have been sore pressed to guarantee its safety if he left it behind, unless perhaps the Nazgûl took it with them when they (presumably) went into hiding after they (deliberately) abandoned Sauron at the coming of the Númenóreans. One assumes he could not have simply left it behind in Barad-dûr; we have no information that Ar-Pharazôn's men went to Mordor, let alone searched Sauron's tower, but if so much of Middle-earth fell under the sway of Númenor at that time it's hard to imagine they would have left their defeated enemy's "capital" alone.
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06-16-2016, 05:59 AM | #38 | |
Ghost Prince of Cardolan
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He understood. Later Sam says that he too saw something, the light, but he interpreted it to be a star through Galadriel's fingers. Sam did not understand, even though Galadriel had already said, aloud, that one of the Three is in Lorien, upon her finger. It might be that he literally didn't see Nenya, but if we take in Sam's experience with the mirror, he was arguably shaken and distracted: "Sam sat on the ground and put his head in his hands. "I wish I had never come here, and I don't want to see no more magic," he said and fell silent." Sam actually says he doesn't want to "see no more magic", and after the Lady asks him about her Ring he appears to still be thinking about the gaffer and the Shire. Galadriel had said to Frodo: "And did you not see and recognize the ring upon my finger? Did you see my ring?" she asked turning to Sam." Frodo didn't just see a ring, he understood it was one of the Three. As Galadriel says, his sight had grown keener. Again I think Sam saw the same light but did not recognize or understand, his worry about the Shire and his gaffer still holding much of his attention. Of course that's just my interpretation, but I also "see" no great reason for the Three to be invisible. So far |
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06-16-2016, 06:05 AM | #39 |
Ghost Prince of Cardolan
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For clarity, Frodo may have suddenly seen a ring upon Galadriel's finger at this point too, but in the sense of noticing it, due to her gesture and so on. In other words, Nenya wasn't necessarily invisible, but after he saw it he suddenly understood.
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06-16-2016, 08:40 AM | #40 |
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I don't recall Gandalf or Elrond ever being described with a noticeable ring. Elrond, I grant, was never described in great physical detail, however, Gandalf was. If the ring was visible either Gandalf didn't wear it on his finger or it was somehow shrouded...or Tolkien deliberately chose not to describe it.
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