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06-07-2016, 04:10 PM | #41 |
Animated Skeleton
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Sure, I get that. The point was just that above a lot of talk years ago seemed to be basing doubt on the Feanorian heritage of Celebrimbor on the whole Elessar story.
I just wanted to point out that The Elessar is not necessarily at odds with the Feanorian story - or can be made fit the Feanorian story with very little editorial work. Arguments like 'the text would have mentioned this or that' if Celebrimbor (or Galadriel or Gil-galad) had been there aren't very convincing to me because the focus of the stories as we know them isn't on those characters. And, after all, the stories aren't finished. We'll not get everything together but if Celebrimbor was at Nargothrond with Celegorm and Curufin then he could not possibly also have been at Gondolin to make the Elessar. And if you cut all that stuff about Idril bearing the stone in Gondolin then the story more or less is gone. |
06-08-2016, 10:26 AM | #42 | ||||||||
King's Writer
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Let us first collect some facts:
A) Celebrimbor is descendant form Feanor. This is stated in the preface of The Tale of Years form LotR. But it entered only in the second edition of 1966. According to our rules this is to be used, as long as we cannot demonstrate it to be only a ‘slip of the pen’ (seeing the scanty information we have that option seems impossible to me). B) If we take the sources with second highest priority, these are twofold (see also C). The following note is from 1968 or later (Eldarin, hands, Fingers and Numerals, VT47): Quote:
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C) The next information described as ‘of much the same time’, written on paper provided Tolkien in 1969 comes from Of Men and Dwarves (HoME XII; Part 2; Late Writings): Quote:
D) A note by Tolkien in one of his copies of the 1966 edition of the LotR read thus (HoME XII; Part 2; Late Writings; Of Men and Dwarves; Note 7): Quote:
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The wife of Finrod needs not be discussed here. But here we have a clear storyline of Celebrimbor’s life: Born in Valinor, gone into exile with his father, and staying with him until Curufin was expelled from Nargothrond. It corosponds nicely to A) but is not compatible to B) or C). E) Concerning Galadriel and Celeborn is the next text to look into. Christopher Tolkien does not provide us with an exact date when it was written, but he adds it to ‘the same phase (so to call it)’ of his father’s writing as the Appendix B of LotR. As the preamble is not mention in the texts before the typescript going to the publisher, this must refer to 1955-6 or slightly before. Anyhow it is earlier than A) to D). I here quote it from HoME XII; Part 2; Late Writings; Of Men and Dwarves; Note 7 were it is given more fully: Quote:
F) Written at the same time as E) was The Elessar. I will only summarize the text here in respect to Celebrimbors ancestry: It makes Celebrimbor a jewel-smith of Gondolin without giving any farther information. According to our Principle 1 A) is a given fact. That said C) must be considered under Principle 2.a as ‘slip of the pen’ or a failure of memorizing what was already in print. To ignore B) we either have to declare that is incompatible with A) and rule it out on Principle 2.a or we have to call it a proposed change that is not workable for us due to lake of information (Principle 2.b). I am not convinced of either. It does also not help if we decide on ignoring Celeborn as a Teler on Principle 2.a since he has occurred under Principle 1 as a Sindar. In that situation Celebrimbor as Teler might provide us with the opportunity for an independent journey of Galadriel. Which, by the way, could also provide a nice background to Celebrimbor saying in F) to Galadriel ‘But you know that I love you (though you turned to Celeborn of the Trees), …’. Otherwise it is if Galadriels independent journey is rejected. It seems to me fully improbable to a Teler join the host of Fingolfin after the kin slaying of Aqualonde or to journey on his own (without Galadriel) in his own ship to Middle-Erath. D corresponds nicely to A but has due to our Principles lower priority than B. So D is the option if B is ruled out. E and F contradict B which has higher priority. But the contradiction is week if we consider mixed ancestry. If B is ruled out E and F still contradict D which has the higher priority. To use E and F instead of D would require D to fall under Principle 5: Quote:
All that means: to have Celebrimbor in Gondolin we have to make him of mixed Telerin and Feanorian blood, (A and B combined) and have him journey to Middel-Earth together with Galadriel in a boot rescued by them in Aqualonde. How he joined Turgon is not told, but that is not improbable. But it depends in the end on the independent journey of Galadriel. So in my point of view we must first decide what we do with Galadirel’s independent journey, and then come back to this discussion. However neither text E nor text F are completely out since we still have Principle 6 to work with them: Quote:
Findegil |
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06-08-2016, 01:06 PM | #43 |
Animated Skeleton
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Hm. I'd be fine with Celebrimbor's Teleri descent if they were also great silver-smiths (I think for the Falmari that would be a late addition but the Sindar are also referred to as being great in that field) a marriage between Curufin and a Teler would be conceivable.
If Celebrimbor had a Teler mother and there was no separate boat for Galadriel and Celeborn then Celebrimbor could still have been with the Noldor - he could have been with Finrod and Galadriel defending the Teleri during the battle at Alqualonde, for instance, and subsequently crossing the ice with them. Descent means 'descent', there is no way around that. If Celebrimbor were Daeron's descendant then Daeron would have had children. Nephews aren't descendants; if Celebrimbor had been designated as Daeron's 'kinsman' he could have been his nephew or cousin or something like that, but that's not the case there. However, one could even try to reconcile this with the other account. As far as I recall right now we don't know when exactly Daeron was born (since he no longer is Lúthien's brother). Assuming he came with Thingol to Beleriand during the long march he could have had at least one child (and a wife?) who passed across the sea with Olwe and eventually married Curufin in Aman (or the daughter of that daughter did). But of course Celebrimbor could never have been a Sinda by birth. The Galadriel-Celeborn issue should be discussed separately. This thing is very convoluted even in the LotR itself (Nando vs. apparent Sinda origin). |
06-18-2017, 10:21 PM | #44 | ||
Shade of Carn Dûm
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This best recounts something about Celebrimbor and Galadriel that has roots with the Kinslaying and Galadriel being "...unfriends with Feanor forever...". It was an important theme that Galadriel was not seduced by Celebrimbor, during Annatar's presence in Eregion. We know as well that Cirdan was wary of Annatar, which naturally allies itself to Galadriel's rebuffing of Celebrimbor's advance. She must have sensed something of wrong in Annatar's relationship with Celebrimbor, and the innate mistrust from knowing the Curse of Mandos as an affliction upon the Sons of Feanor. That's provided as context. About the two stories of the Elessar we can never be really sure that those were about Tolkien and his latter emendations as he produced his mythology. However, given the context cited above I find it supports the supposition that there is very little chance, if any at all that Celebrimbor would have any presence in Gondolin. He was the grandson of Feanor and with a parentage in the 7 sons, I doubt Turgon would pleasantly receive him, especially given Fingolfin's march through the Heclaraxe and their alienation from Feanor (for which Fingolfin went some way to reverse, however, Turgon was very xenophobic, and he threw Eol off the cliffs nigh his city for the death of Aredhel). So, (if) two green stones ever existed with Celebrimbor's the second (and I'm not sure about this--because it's weird to imagine an Istari bearing the green stone back from Aman), which is how theories of 'the return stone' come about. [though there is a tantalising supposition it *might* have occurred, in a famous short text about Galadriel and Olorin possibly meeting nigh Amon Lanc in southern Mirkwood]. Quote:
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A call to my lost pals. Dine, Orcy_The_Green_Wonder, Droga, Lady Rolindin. Gellion, Thasis, Tenzhi. I was Silmarien Aldalome. Candlekeep. WotC. Can anyone help? Last edited by Ivriniel; 06-18-2017 at 10:47 PM. |
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12-22-2017, 10:57 PM | #45 |
Quentingolmo
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Sorry to ressurect an old thread, but was this issue ever decided? I am personally inclined to the Enerdhil storyline with both narratives of the second Elessar presented as competing theories by loremasters. If we accept this, then there are one or two additons that need to be made to the Fall of Gondolin and the Voyage of Earendil.
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12-23-2017, 09:34 AM | #46 |
King's Writer
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There is nothing to appologise for. This thread had to be reviewed one day.
No, we did not come to a conclusion in this thread so far. But we might discuss it now since we decisdes about Galadriels journey to Middle-earth. Since she did not rescue a ship but acompianed Felagund over the ice, Celebrimbor is for sure no Teler. That means that text B is ruled out based on principal 2.b. So we have the clear statement in text A that Celebrimbor is decendant from Feanor and we have text D where we have the details that he is the son of Curufin and a wife of Curufin that stayed with the poeple of Finarfin in Valinor. And that he became a friend of Felagund during the stay of Curufin and Celegrom in Nargothrond and when they were expelled he stayed in that city. That means Celebrimbor can never have been in Gondolin. How we can with that handle the texts E and / or F under principle 6 has to be discussed. Respectfully Findegil |
12-23-2017, 06:05 PM | #47 |
Quentingolmo
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Well, as you have just said, the story we have elsewhere agreed upon precludes him from being in Gondolin at all. This means that E is not usable insofar as it makes him an elf of Gondolin.
As for F, the first (much longer) version meshes perfectly with the decisions we have made elsewhere, giving the making of the Elessar to a new craftsman: Enerdhil, and leaving the role of Celebrimbor until the second coming of the Elessar. Until we reach drafts for Volume II, the second Elessar question may remain unresolved, but as for the qiuestion of the existence of Celebrimbor in Gondolin, as you have said we have already decided this to be impossible. Therefore, the only story we have left is the Enerdhil story, which dovetails quite nicely with all other existing canon. |
02-13-2018, 09:04 AM | #48 |
King's Writer
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I agree that we might use Enerdhil, even so he was replaced in the manuscript by JRR Tolkien.
But I think we must as well skip the story of the Elessar brought bake from Valinor by Gandalf. The story of him visiting Galadriel and giving the stone to here, does not fit the chronology: All the time when Gandalf is around Galadriel was able to use her Ring. So for what would she neede the Elessar? I think that story Comes from a time when the idea about the chronology was quite diffrent. Probabbly when all the Istari came in the Second Age. Respectfully Findegil |
02-13-2018, 03:51 PM | #49 |
Ghost Prince of Cardolan
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I have come to think (after also wondering about this version of the Elessar tale) that it's Olórin visiting Galadriel before she could use Nenya, in the first of two purposely internal variations.
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02-14-2018, 07:17 AM | #50 |
Ghost Prince of Cardolan
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For clarity perhaps, I mean Olórin before he was Gandalf.
Looking at the text, it reads Olórin said this or that, while the name Mithrandir is only added parenthetically to note who Olórin is -- in my opinion because from JRRT's perspective, Olórin might be an easily forgotten name, especially before the constructed Silmarillion was published, and these fancy internet days. In one of the Glorfindel texts, it's said. "That Olorin, as was possible for one of the Maiar, had already visited Middle-earth and had become acquainted not only with the Sindarin Elves and others deeper in Middle-earth, but also with Men, is likely, but nothing is [> has yet been] said of this."
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02-15-2018, 02:31 PM | #51 |
Quentingolmo
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I agree with Findegil. As much as I like the story of Olorin, the logical problem is there. In addition, due to the vast difference in timing between the two versions (one in the Second and the other in the Third Ages), the narrative cannot be presented as we would like: side by side as two divergent legends. They would be separated by a great deal of text, and this would be difficult to edit without the appearance of contradiction. I have incorporated the second version into the Second Age draft at the very beginning of the chapter Concerning Galadriel and Celeborn, with some minor editing.
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02-15-2018, 04:38 PM | #52 | ||
Ghost Prince of Cardolan
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Quote:
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But when's one a time? If the Maia arrives in the Second Age here, we have roughly 1,590 years before the Three are made, and around year 1600, Celebrimbor perceives the designs of Sauron, leaving the Three arguably unsafe to employ until Isildur takes the One in year 3,441. Or do these windows not work due to some chronology already decided upon? |
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02-16-2018, 11:02 AM | #53 |
Wight
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In one of the texts of the Istari is said
"Then Manwë asked, where was Olórin ? And Olórin, who was clad in grey, and having just entered from a journey.... Manwë replied that he wished Olórin to go as the third messenger to Middle-earth (and it is remarked in parentheses that "Olórin was a lover of the Eldar that remained,..." This is ( for me ) a good reason to think that the Olorin of the Elessar text could be an Olorin of the pre One Ring Second Age. But for me there is a problem, And is that Galadriel never dwelt in Greenwood the Great unless we edit it in some way saying that Lorien or Lindorinand was part of it in those days. Anyway I prefer the version of Enerdhil. And anyway I gave the Elessar story as a separate text, as a General note at the end of the Third TftE Volume (Fourth volume of The Thain Book), and I conserved both stories maintaining the ambiguous "and of this two things are said, though which is true only those Wise could say who now are gone." The only part I inserted in the narrative was the first part: There was in Gondolin a jewel-smith named Enerdhil, ... This gem Enerdhil gave to Idril the King's daughter, and she wore it upon her breast..." And "And before Idril set sail she said to Eärendil ..... So it was that the Elessar passed away, when Eärendil returned no more to Middle-earth" into the Narn-en-El text. Greetings |
02-16-2018, 02:42 PM | #54 | |
Ghost Prince of Cardolan
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According to the text Concerning Galadriel and Celeborn, Lorinand is said to have extended into the forest on both sides of the Great River, including the region which afterwards was Dol Guldur. Still, in general I agree there might be some problems tying together a chronology of Galadriel's movements in the Second Age. Author-published text gives little enough to go on, and in my personal opinion, Concerning Galariel and Celeborn is a dubious text with respect to a few matters. I'm not sure what the folks engaged in this project have already decided upon regarding Galadriel's movements, and I must admit, I haven't tried to squeeze Greenwood into the picture... ... or my picture anyway! |
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02-17-2018, 02:19 AM | #55 | |
Wight
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Quote:
Greetings |
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02-17-2018, 11:58 AM | #56 |
Ghost Prince of Cardolan
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O, I C
"oh, I see" |
02-17-2018, 03:19 PM | #57 |
King's Writer
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The project has not yet discussed Galadriels and Celeborns movements in the Second and Third Age (or even at the end of the First Age). But that is one of the important points we have to do soon as it seems.
Respectfully Findegil |
05-15-2018, 11:16 PM | #58 | ||||
King's Writer
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Now as we have discussed the movements of Galadriel and Celeborn in the Second Age and earlier, we have to come to some conclusion here.
As we have rejected the Galadriel sailing by ‘her own’ ship to Middel-earth, we have to discard text B that made Celebrimbor an Teler. We might speculate that his mother was of Telerin origin, but have a statement in text D that we have taken up in our version that she returned with following of Finarfin to Aman. However that might be, both text B and D build up a first connection between Celebrimbor and the House of Finarfin. Form this I would even speculate that he did not take ship with the Feanorians but crossed the ice with the host of Fingolfin and Finrod. But we do not have to specify this. Text D that has the highest priority beside A to which it corresponds nicely makes a soujuorn of Celebrimbor in Gondolin impossible (he is to escape from Nargothrond, so he can not enter Gondolin at such a late time). Now we have to deal with text E and F under principal 6, which means we can use them und must edit them to agree with the sources of higher priority. I suppose to change text E in the following way: Quote:
Text F is more difficult. Up to know we did not include much of it. As Enerdhil is in the endnote to the text replaced by Celebrimbor, I don’t think we can us Enerdhil. The only principal that would allow that is Principal 2.b declaring that note a proposed change that is not workable for as. But even so an simple exchange of the names is not enough, I think we managed in the past much more substantial changes. The simplest solution is that as in text E we should avoid to specify where Celebrimbor made the first Elessar. And since it is clear that the place can not be Gondolin, but still the stone must be given to Idril the time for the making of the stone is before the Turgon left Vinyamar. Therefore I would put the first part it as a separate paragraph at the end of the chapter 19 Of the Noldor in Beleriand and would edit is thus:[quote]TBG-07<The Elessar There was in TBG-08{Gondolin}[Beleriand] a jewel-smith named {Enerdhil}[Celebrimbor], the greatest of that craft among the Noldor after the death of Fëanor. {Enerdhil}[Celebrimbor] loved all green things that grew, and his greatest joy was to see the sunlight through the leaves of trees. And it came into his heart to make a jewel within which the clear light of the sun should be imprisoned, but the jewel should be green as leaves. And he made this thing, and even the Noldor marvelled at it. For it is said that those who looked through this stone saw things that were withered or burned healed again or as they were in the grace of their youth, and that the hands of one who held it brought to all that they touched healing from hurt. This gem {Enerdhil}[Celebrimbor] gave to Idril the TBG-08{King's }daughter of Turgon, and she wore it upon her breast TBG-09{; and so it was saved from the burning of Gondolin}.> In addition I observed that we might have put not enough of text F into the chapter 34 Of the Voyage of Eärendil. First I would like to use what we left out above in the scene of Idril giving the stone to her son: Quote:
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- Galadriel having founded Eregion made contact to Lorinand, which at this time included the Forst east of Anduin were later Dol Guldur was. - She was their either visited by Olorin and given the Elessar of old or - She from their visited Eregion to talk to Celebrimbor initiating his making of the second Elessar. - When Olorin made his way back to Valinor he was just in time to enter the council of the Valar that chose the Istari. The end note to text F can be raised as a strong argument against this. But still I feel that we should at least introduce some doubt about the story of the second Elessar. This is a text where JRR Tolkien himself used a strong ambiguity and even if it seems that he had made up his mind when he wrote the endnote, it is not so clear to me that he would have followed that note would he have re-written the full text. Respectfully Findegil |
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05-16-2018, 06:44 AM | #59 | |
Ghost Prince of Cardolan
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I won't/can't say my reading is correct, but I think the note alters that Celebrimbor was to replace Enerdhil, but not that the Olorin/Galadriel tale is out. In other words, as I read it, this relatively brief note simply does not say/need to restate that Olorin brought Galadriel the first Elessar returned. Christopher Tolkien notes that a later revision to the text alters Galadriel being "unwilling" to forsake Middle-earth, with her ban introduced -- it's actually incorporated in the UT text in brackets, but the following comment merely says "text was later emended". And then CJRT goes on to note the intended displacement of Enerdhil, but not that the Olorin/Galadriel version was dropped... ... something that I would characterize as a pretty notable revision: altering a tale with two purposed variants, to a tale which seems to know the history -- at least in as much as the first Elessar passing away, leaving the one in Galadriel's possession as a known "second" Elessar. Perhaps Christopher Tolkien doesn't note this as it seems obvious from the end note? It doesn't seem obvious to me though, especially if the "later" emendation concerning Galadriel's ban is later than the end note -- which, so far, I think remains an open question? Or do we know that much, and I missed it? |
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05-23-2018, 04:04 PM | #60 |
Quentingolmo
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As it stands then, it seems we have two things to resolve:
1) Who made the first Elessar, Enerdhil or Celebrimbor? 2) Is the alternate version of Olorin possible? Number 2 is easier to answer, and I think we are actually now all agreed that it is indeed possible, and thus the two versions should be presented together, in order to preserve the ambiguity that Tolkien himself inserted. However, the issue is that of 'The Forest.' Should we change this? In both versions the idea is present that Galadriel is not dwelling in Eregion at that time, but in the text Concerning Galadriel and Celeborn she most certainly is dwelling there, at least at the time of the second version of the tale, as when she lived in Lorinand she was not on speaking terms with Celebrimbor, since he had just revolted against her. Therefore, should we change the references to 'the forest' and Greenwood the Great' to Eregion? Number 1 is more difficult because of the difficulty presented by Celebrimbor in Gondolin. Fin's edit solves that problem neatly, but I wonder: are we inventing too much, to have him give the Elessar to her so much earlier? I suppose it boils down to this: which fact is more important: 1) Celebrimbor, not Enerdhil made the Elessar, or 2) It was made in Gondolin, not Nargothrond. No matter what we decide, we are changing one of those things. Tolkien himself changed the first one, so that does tend to make me think that Fin is correct in his edit, since if 1) is true, then 2) must be true as well. The conclusion of all this? I agree with Fin's changes to the First Age drafts, and I think we can in fact give both variants of the Second Age Elessar material, but I think we still need to decide where Galadriel is dwelling at that time. |
05-26-2018, 04:17 PM | #61 |
King's Writer
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So the question is, where does Galadriel talk to Celebrimbor or Olorin? My interpretation of this ridle is, that Galadriel was in Concerning Galadriel and Celeborn reported to have made contact to Lórinand during here rule in Eregion. This I think is to be enlarged to a stay there, for a time only and while she still was with her husband the ruler in Eregion.
Respectfully Findegil |
05-26-2018, 06:25 PM | #62 |
Quentingolmo
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That might not work. She talks in both versions about her being mightier here in Middle-earth, which would be odd if she weren't even in her place of power.
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05-27-2018, 08:21 AM | #63 |
King's Writer
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A ruler not at home is still a ruler. And being in Lórinand was as well a mission for gaining influence, in which she did succed. So I don't see that this contradicts here statement of being mightier in Middle-earth.
And any how, if that contradiction is their it is not created by our editing but inherent in the text itself. Thus we would not correct it at all, because it would be JRR Tolkiens own contradiction. Respectfully Findegi |
05-27-2018, 12:24 PM | #64 |
Quentingolmo
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I suppose I would need to see a draft to see how it works.
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